You have to remember that, as RJ has pointed out more than a few times, what a character thinks to be true is not necessarily true.

Seems like a cop out, but I'll accept it sir!

So after going mia for about a year, I probably should have answered the question about what I used. I cant remember the last one...

Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit into Sightblinder's eye on the Last Day.

 

WIN! That is mu favorite WOT quote (with maybe the exception of it's time to toss the dice in the old tongue). If I could fit it on a tattoo I would.

 

Yes, that scene with Rand at the male Choedan Kal.

 

Light filled him, blinded him.

“Till shade is gone,” he mumbled, “till water is gone . . .”

Power filled him. He was one with the sphere.

“. . . into the Shadow with teeth bared . . .”

The power was his. The Power was his.

“. . . to spit in Sightblinder’s eye . . .”

Power to Break the World.

“. . . on the last day!” It came out as a shout, and the void was gone.

 

Only picked out a short bit, but, still...

 

Love It.

That was one of the best scenes in the series. Top 10 easily.

The key word is "knowing" that you're channeling and being in conscious control of it .

Rand didn't know he was channeling when he buffed Bela in the flight from the Two Rivers and suffered for it days later with Mat on their way to Caemlyn.

Just like Nynaeve didn't know she was channeling when she healed Egwene of Breakbone fever years earlier.

It's why the ones that survive often develop blocks, it's their subconscious protecting them.

 

Egwene was forced but she already had training and the a'dam works like a forced link. A link of any kind comes with a natural buffer, as the leader of a circle, you can't force those under you to channel too much of the power.

That's why Rand will need to have 2 women linked with him to use Callandor safely, to provide the buffer that its' missing.

 

The BT didn't lose men because of the sickness, they lost men because they were also doing forced training but without the protection of a'dam and of course from some simply going mad.

 

Whether or not I'm 100% right on all this is for debate but it's what makes the most sense based on what we know.

Hmm. I never realized the Adam can't force you to draw too much power. Interesting, interesting.

As to the knowing part, yes that's the key. But Rand knew after book 1, and yet until he had a tutor, he still mentioned that he could die from the sickness that kills 3 in 4.

I just like hearing other opinions, I enjoy debaitng. Sorry if it bothers anyone.

No, that's far too much too soon that kills you and/or others.

The sickness is caused by channeling a lot of the power for the first time when you have never channeled at all before.

Think of it as being out of shape and then climbing 100 flights of stairs in one go instead of just climbing a fraction of that to start and increasing the numbers gradually each day.

If you're out of shape and do the 100 right off the bat, I guarantee you that you won't be doing anything the next day or for a few days after.

So then, knowing you're channeling, and only doing small things means you should be ok (The basic thing the tower does with you). Or would that mean the Black Tower lost more people to the sickness? Something doesn't add up.

If you channel too much of the power, you burn out. If you channel too much too early, you get sick and die? However you can be forced, i.e. Eggy or all the Black Tower, and it's fine?

Given the context we have, it should mean anyone who realizes they are channeling, should never die from the sickness since they just do little htings and they get past some magical point where they can't die from the sickness anymore?

The proper training allows you to build your "muscles" slowly without shocking your system.

Sorry if this has topic has been exhausted already, but i just wanted to put in my 2 cents on the above. So i guess he was known as the Dragon before the battle with the shadow. But to them I doubt the "Dragon" meant Champion of light. Since they didn't know who the dark one was, they likely didn't know that there was a champion reborn to fight him in each age. It's only since LTT and his title that the term Dragon came to describe the Light's champion. At some point it will be forgotten, along with the knowledge of the DO.

 

Correct, LTT was the Dragon and it was a political "nickname" I believe. No connection to the CoL.

 

But wasn't the Dragon Reborn always there at the end of an Age? They lost that knowledge?

 

Anyway, another question: Has it ever been explained why channelers with the spark die without a teacher? Like what does the teacher teach them that they don't learn on their own? I know the illness comes closer and closer to the moment of channeling until they happen at the same time, but what does a teacher do to stop that? Just something else that's always bothered me.

I think its more the fact they teach control over it

 

Yea but what are they teaching? I can see learning weaves and such. But it seems to me they just encourage you to channel a little of the power so you become used to it. Not sure how that kills.

 

 

How to consciously, properly and safely touch the Source, instead of doing it unconsciously which runs the risk of channeling too much too soon resulting in the sickness that kills 1 in 4. Not to mention the possibility of simply killing yourself and/or others in the process of that channeling.

But too much too soon doesn't cause a sickness, it just burns you out of kills you.

But wasn't the Dragon Reborn always there at the end of an Age? They lost that knowledge?

 

There was always a Champion of the Light born, yes, at the end of an Age to fight the Dark One, however the term "Dragon" is a recent (or reused, considering we're talking about cyclical time here) appellation.

 

As for losing the knowledge of a Champion taht fights at the end of an Age, I don't see why it couldn't happen. Really, the only reason LTT is remembered is because he is directly tied to the Breaking and all the suffering that came after (the loss of paradise). I don't see why a world-hinging battle couldn't happen quietly in a way that only those directly involved knew what was happening.

I'd like to think we've progressed further as a society than that. Where in 1000 years, we'll know fact from fiction. I may be wrong however.

So if there have only been 3 ages, how has the "Dragon" went over to the dark side a few times.

Sorry if this has topic has been exhausted already, but i just wanted to put in my 2 cents on the above. So i guess he was known as the Dragon before the battle with the shadow. But to them I doubt the "Dragon" meant Champion of light. Since they didn't know who the dark one was, they likely didn't know that there was a champion reborn to fight him in each age. It's only since LTT and his title that the term Dragon came to describe the Light's champion. At some point it will be forgotten, along with the knowledge of the DO.

 

Correct, LTT was the Dragon and it was a political "nickname" I believe. No connection to the CoL.

 

But wasn't the Dragon Reborn always there at the end of an Age? They lost that knowledge?

 

Anyway, another question: Has it ever been explained why channelers with the spark die without a teacher? Like what does the teacher teach them that they don't learn on their own? I know the illness comes closer and closer to the moment of channeling until they happen at the same time, but what does a teacher do to stop that? Just something else that's always bothered me.

I think its more the fact they teach control over it

Yea but what are they teaching? I can see learning weaves and such. But it seems to me they just encourage you to channel a little of the power so you become used to it. Not sure how that kills.

Sorry if this has topic has been exhausted already, but i just wanted to put in my 2 cents on the above. So i guess he was known as the Dragon before the battle with the shadow. But to them I doubt the "Dragon" meant Champion of light. Since they didn't know who the dark one was, they likely didn't know that there was a champion reborn to fight him in each age. It's only since LTT and his title that the term Dragon came to describe the Light's champion. At some point it will be forgotten, along with the knowledge of the DO.

 

Correct, LTT was the Dragon and it was a political "nickname" I believe. No connection to the CoL.

But wasn't the Dragon Reborn always there at the end of an Age? They lost that knowledge?

Anyway, another question: Has it ever been explained why channelers with the spark die without a teacher? Like what does the teacher teach them that they don't learn on their own? I know the illness comes closer and closer to the moment of channeling until they happen at the same time, but what does a teacher do to stop that? Just something else that's always bothered me.

So after going mia for about a year, I probably should have answered the question about what I used. I cant remember the last one...

Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit into Sightblinder's eye on the Last Day.

WIN! That is mu favorite WOT quote (with maybe the exception of it's time to toss the dice in the old tongue). If I could fit it on a tattoo I would.

Has the "coveted third name" thing ever been explained?

 

You mean from the Age of Legends?

If so, the third name was earned through accomplishments.

 

Yes from the age of Legends. Nothing further explaining exactly what it was then? Just like a middle name?

earning a third name in the age of legends reflected great deeds done for others. i dont think there is all that much about it but it seems to me that the names were bestowed not chosen by the one who earned them. for lews therin the name he earned was telamon which literaly means "the dragon". i like to think he earned it in battle against the shadow, but it might have been before the war as far as i know. but lews therin's title as far as i can tell was lord of the morning, although he once, apparently not at the time of the strike at sg, wore the ring of tamyrlin, and commanded the nine rods of dominion, and lots of people on this site think of the rods of dominion as governors in the regions of the world, and as such it would mean that at one point lews was leader of the world. it would be hard to say king because there is so little information.

 

EDIT: oh and of course lews therin also earned a fourth name: kinslayer

He got the third name before, since Lanfear was jealous of it before he even got with his wife. Hmm, didn't know it meant dragon. So was it known he was the Dragon before the battle with the Shadow then? Did they know what the Dragon was? (Since the battle between the Dragon the the DO was eternal, blah blah blah)

Has the "coveted third name" thing ever been explained?

 

You mean from the Age of Legends?

If so, the third name was earned through accomplishments.

Yes from the age of Legends. Nothing further explaining exactly what it was then? Just like a middle name?

Has the "coveted third name" thing ever been explained?

I have a quesiton I never figured out. Actually a few.

1) Why did the AS with Mat not figure out how to Travel from Verin moving the Army?

 

A good question and not the first it's been asked. The simple answer is...we don't know. Mostly it's assumed Verin didn't show them the making of it.

 

2) How did Verin move Mat's Army so damn fast? Didn't the Channelers with Perrin complain about how long it takes to move a lot of men? Mat had what 5000 men? Maybe more when he met up with the rest of his peeps (I can't recall right now) but how did she manage that? Seems off to me...

 

He had closer to 6500-7000 men actually. Talmanes arrived with around 8500 (3 Banners of horse consisting of 1500 each, 4000 mounted X-bowmen and half the scouts). They lost around 900 (400 X-bowmen and 500 Calvary) during his raids and whatever he lost in the ambush.

Either way, it was never said that Verin moved them overly quickly but she did have an angreal with her, the "flower brooch", so her gateway was of a greater than average size.

Big enough that Aludra's wagon fit through it.

 

You have to remember with Perrin's forces, he was talking about moving well over 50,000 and closer to 70k when they are going to the FoM at the end.

 

Yea but even then, they talked about it taking weeks and months right (Or am I confused) and that was with multiple channelers! If Mat had 7500, and say perrin had 10 times that, it should take 10 times as much time (being really basic here). But they had multiple channelers making gateways, or at least linked with circles to make them. So it shouldn't be 10 times as long at that point, but a fraction of the time.

 

Oh no no, Perrin moved his entire force through gateways in a matter of hour(s).

It used to take a hell of a lot longer through normal gateways, before Flinn and Neald figured out how to link with the WO's and AS to make huge gateways.

 

Just think about Rand's forces when he engaged the Seanchan in Altara. They were moving his almost equivalent (6000) small force around quite quickly through regular gateways.

Oh yea, that was before linking. Ok good point. IT still seems Verin did it in a short amount of time. But I'll concede that.

I have a quesiton I never figured out. Actually a few.

1) Why did the AS with Mat not figure out how to Travel from Verin moving the Army?

 

A good question and not the first it's been asked. The simple answer is...we don't know. Mostly it's assumed Verin didn't show them the making of it.

 

2) How did Verin move Mat's Army so damn fast? Didn't the Channelers with Perrin complain about how long it takes to move a lot of men? Mat had what 5000 men? Maybe more when he met up with the rest of his peeps (I can't recall right now) but how did she manage that? Seems off to me...

 

He had closer to 6500-7000 men actually. Talmanes arrived with around 8500 (3 Banners of horse consisting of 1500 each, 4000 mounted X-bowmen and half the scouts). They lost around 900 (400 X-bowmen and 500 Calvary) during his raids and whatever he lost in the ambush.

Either way, it was never said that Verin moved them overly quickly but she did have an angreal with her, the "flower brooch", so her gateway was of a greater than average size.

Big enough that Aludra's wagon fit through it.

 

You have to remember with Perrin's forces, he was talking about moving well over 50,000 and closer to 70k when they are going to the FoM at the end.

Yea but even then, they talked about it taking weeks and months right (Or am I confused) and that was with multiple channelers! If Mat had 7500, and say perrin had 10 times that, it should take 10 times as much time (being really basic here). But they had multiple channelers making gateways, or at least linked with circles to make them. So it shouldn't be 10 times as long at that point, but a fraction of the time.

Yea but the Ashies made it seem like it would take FOREVER for the 7 of them, holding gateways with circles. And she has a weak Angreal. They never explained it, and yea they skipped a day ahead, but all it took was a day? Really? And it still doesn't explain why the other AS didn't see the weave. It really bothered me how they skipped that part on purpose.

 

Well if it was an ashie who did the weaving, then they wouldn't have seen it. Also, when linked with saidin, can outsiders even see the actual link if they aren't a part of it? We also don't know how large the portal was. The bigger the portal, the faster it take them. Also, I don't think the entire Band was with him, only a small number. The majority were with the Salidar AS. So it wouldn't take days anyway like with Perrin's huge force.

There were no Ashies, Mat doesn't like men who can channel, still. It was just Verin. Also, I thought he picked up the rest of the band? (I might be wrong on this point)

I think there were some ashies in the area, IIRC who helped her. Or perhapse she had an angreal we don't know about? Also, we don't really know how long it took because maybe they skipped ahead a day or so. I mean, we don't a whole page detailing how all 5k people slowly made their way through the gateway. lol.

Yea but the Ashies made it seem like it would take FOREVER for the 7 of them, holding gateways with circles. And she has a weak Angreal. They never explained it, and yea they skipped a day ahead, but all it took was a day? Really? And it still doesn't explain why the other AS didn't see the weave. It really bothered me how they skipped that part on purpose.

I have a quesiton I never figured out. Actually a few.

1) Why did the AS with Mat not figure out how to Travel from Verin moving the Army?

2) How did Verin move Mat's Army so damn fast? Didn't the Channelers with Perrin complain about how long it takes to move a lot of men? Mat had what 5000 men? Maybe more when he met up with the rest of his peeps (I can't recall right now) but how did she manage that? Seems off to me...

For some reason, I always see a shield as going around the belt area. Like where the waist is, splitting a person in half. Not sure why...

Doesn't the greatest honor come from not injuring your opponent? I thought Sulin lost because she had to hit her to subdue her, thus she lost the fight. (That's how I worked it out in my mind)

So, no-one then. The people who were with Faile didn't die because of a failure of leadership on Perrin's part, they died because the enemy attacked them. It wasn't within Perrin's power to stop that happening.

Was Faile riding around with minimal guards without knowing how close the AIel were? You have an army, he should have known of any forces large enough to threaten any members of his retinue. Her kidnapping was on his shoulders. A good leader shouldn't have let that happen. But then again, he wasn't being a good leader at that point.

I'm certain that any impartial court would sure as hell call that murder. Because it is, even if you feel it's justified for pragmatic reasons. You're right, it's not simple. The solutions available to him are murder them all and enslave them all. How big a difference do you think there is, morally, between mass murder and mass enslavement? I think either solution is bad enough that it comes across as hair splitting to say that killing them all in their sleep is more defensible.

If you believe so. It's like letting a suicide bomber live with his hand on the trigger. Don't forget, a lot of those channelers weren't sleep, they were alive and well when they were captured. Death before dishonor, slavery is not honorable.

We're not going to agree on this good sir, so I suppose I'll leave it at that.

 

Masema is a man of dubious sanity to begin with - kidnapping him and shoving him through a Gateway to come face to face with his god is not likely to be the best way of handling things. Further, assuming you don't just break his mind completely, you don't necessarily inherit his army. Masema is the only one controlling them. Take him away, you take away the control. Which means you need to keep them in line until Masema returns. What if Perrin returns, proclaims that he has delivered the Prophet unto the Lord Dragon - and then Masema's rabble attack him?

So he was so insane, that walking for months with him was a better idea? Masema is controlling them, with the threat of the Lord Dragon hanging over their heads. They are Dragonsworn, not Masemasworn. They would have fought for Rand, and Perrin by proxy.

Egwene essentially blew up Mesaana's brain and made her a drooling on the floor pooping her pants baby forsaken.

I wouldnt say No chance.

Yea she's pretty much dead now. You can't recover from that, and better yet, since her body is alive, her soul can't be transplanted! Balefire death without the balefire!

Wouldn't you say that applies to Nynaeve far more accurately? That is her stchick after all.

True, however she changed. A LOT. She now understands she's not always right. Eggy doesn't.

I can speak for myself(and knowing David's posting history I'm guessing him as well) in saying that has absolutely nothing to do with it. There was no subtlety involved, in fact RJ hit us over the head with a sledgehammer in showing that not to be the case. I can't imagine anyone applying that stereotype after the first few books.

So aside from not accepting the role of a leader (which i chalk up to him being a coward not stupid, my personal opinion however), what actions of his have made him out to be an idiot? If anything, I would think he'd be seen as slightly autistic (in the real world), but everything hints at him being extremely intelligent, and just a genius that no one notices because he's a big brute. He even says it, numerous times in the book. Some people just still think he's slow-witted.

is laying the blame elsewhere to the point that it wouldn't count as introspection and trying to change her mistakes?

 

Love how your post above almost perfectly showcases character bias when judging one and not the other. As David said the vast majority did not react as you did to how Perrin was written.

For the record, I am not a fan of Perrin. I think he has the potential to be a good leader, however his refusal to accept the role, regardless of what happened to those around him, is/was a major weakness that to me, makes him a horrible leader. I'd rank him up there with Eggy, although now that he finally accepted the role of a leader, I suppose I should like his character, but to me it just seems like it's too little too late. In a perfect world, peole would have stopped trying to follow the fool who didn't want to lead.

If Eggy does have moments of "true" self reflection, they were obviously so horrible that they didn't stick in my head. In fact, what mostly stuck in my head is a plethora of snarky comments she made about others judging them. There are hundreds of statements she made about others ridiculing them for their actions or behaviors, most of them could be applied to her! I suppose other times of her reflecting has been mentioned in this thread? Guess I'll scroll back through again and see if I can find anymore.

If that was the intention, then RJ/Sanderson failed spectacularly. I've seen far more people both in RL and on message boards consider Perrin an idiot than a genius.

People will always find the big gentle giant dim-witted. It's natural to suppose someone who moves and acts with caution is stupid. It's a stereotype that applies here too.

Countless unnamed characters. From the Two Rivers and beyond.

So glad you cleared that up

Nope just him. Send him thru, give him to Rand, come back, "BEHOLD! I HATH DELIVERED THE PROPHET UNTO HIS GOD, AND HE HATH DECREED THAT YOU WILL NOW FOLLOW ME, THE BEST FRIEND OF THE LORD DRAGON, GREATER THAN A MERE PROPHET, BOW BEFORE THE HANDS THAT HATH SLAPPED THE LORD DRAGON ONCE OR TWICE"

Thus weakening his force with the large majority being criminals, rapists and half sane men. Solid idea that.

i quoted the men with Faile when she was captured correct?

Even criminals, rapists and half sane men and women can be reformed. He either wants the army or he doesn't. Push comes to shove, put them in the front lines for fodder, the ones who survive will be better for the hard lesson.

You'll acknowledge, certainly, that reflection and self-criticism are not strong suits?

Sure, I'm just referring to people discussing it as if it has never happened which pop up all too frequently. She has been shown to reflect and work towards changing throughout the course of the story even if it is not a strength.

When I say never, I mean to imply scenes like the one you quoted don't count, becaus she's still laying the blame elsewhere.

Sure I've made mistakes, but my biggest mistake was not forcing everyone to be as awesome as I am.

That's not admitting you're wrong. That's not believing you have made real mistakes and should pay for them. She does what she wants, when she wants, because she knows she's always right.

As to the Perrin thing, out scheming people and fighting, I'd count that more towards the author implying he's a bloody genius. Him picking up battle skills on the fly, he had decent teachers in warfare, I mean sure they don't directly say he was tutored, but he watched troop deployments made my Tam, and Lan and such, he obviously picks things up easily, so he remembers. That's how I always viewed it at least.