As Randsc said, none of us really denies Egwene or the WTs importance in TG, but they kinda need to get knocked down a few pegs.

 

Dude seriously what books have you been reading? How much lower can they go? They quite obviously have bottomed out.

Yes they have been trashed pretty badly, but problem just is, those blasted Aes Sedai haven't actually learned a SINGLE thing yet. The Sitters are still talking about guiding(Read: Control) Rand, and they are still outragous about the fact that Asha'man have bonded Aes Sedai, yet completely oblivious to the opposite happening as well.

Still doesn't explain her thoughts about "forcing her hand" or her explanation to Gawyn about her believing Rand knows it's wrong about destroying the seals and that he wants her to stop him. Those are the thoughts of some really arrogant and self absorbed person, who are completely sure that he/she alone knows the right of things.

As Randsc said, none of us really denies Egwene or the WTs importance in TG, but they kinda need to get knocked down a few pegs. All other major characters/powers aside from the seanchan have been kicked down when they grew to arrogant, Egwene have still avoided that, because everybody around her thinks she's the best thing since sliced bread

Ok where did she said that she is going to listen to what Rand has to say? I did not read it in any of the books so please enlighten my poor soul and give me the quote.

 

ToM

"Then meet with me at the place known as the Field of Merrilor, just to the north. We will talk before I go to Shayol Ghul. For now, I do not want to defy you, Egwene. But I must go."

 

Neither of them looked away. The others in the room seemed not to breathe. The chamber was still enough for Egwene to hear the faint breeze making the rose window groan in its lead.

 

"Very well," Egwene said. "But this is not ended, Rand."

 

 

So unless you think she will show up to the meeting and refuse to allow him to explain his plan that is the next step.

I'll counter with some of the very last thoughts she have before the end of ToM

She would have to contact their two rules and see if she could sway them to her way of thinking. But even if not, surely what she had gathered would be enough to convince Rand to change his plans. Light send it was enough. She didn't want to think of what would happen if he force her hand.

Does that sound like somebody who's just "questioning" him? Who have even considered listening to him at all?

Sure, she goes to FoM to discuss it with him, but not with the intentions of listening to him.

It's basically the same as to enter a discussion with another person saying "If you do not submit to my opinion, I will hit you in the face"

The whole issue is Suttree, she's not questioning it at all, she does not for one second sit dow and begin to actually think about it. She just flatout rejects his idea and plan to oppose. That is what people are arguing against.

But the thing is, Ta'veren influence is the will of the wheel, so how can Aes Sedai dismiss it? Just because it does not agree with their belief? Ta'veren does not work for your benefit, it works for the wheel. So using that as an excuse to dimiss Nynaeves opinion seems rather silly to be.

You seem to forget the part where she afterwards think(Or talk, can't remember exactly) about how she will tie toe Aiel to the Tower, in an attempt to ensure The Towers dominance of the other channeling factions. And then there's of course also the whole thing regarding the Asha'man bonding Aes Sedai, cause clearly only Aes Sedai are good enough to bond anybody.

I don't think Graendal planned on that, Perrin got away because Slayer failed to protect the Dreamspike, so she wanted to do atleast some sort of damage with her trolloc army, and send them after Galad. Perrin showing up wasn't in her plans, and that's what spoiled it even further.

Why does everybody hate Egwene?!?!

Because she's extremely hypocritical

But isn't it the Andoran position that the Two Rivers is part of Andor? Meaning Rand is in fact "one of them" and not "a black-eyed Aielman?"

Since when have anybody ever listened to reason or used logic in this universe? :P

I called my sister Egwene once. I think that counts :D

You must really hate your sister :P

Can't really blame Elayne for going to Ebou Dar to find the bowl. You can however blame her for wasting over a month searching on their own instead of asking for Mats help, didn't Tanchico teach Elayne and Nynaeve that men can actually be quite useful at times? Woolheaded women ;P

Who says Lan and the baby is a mistake? Might very well be a vision of post TG with Malkeri being remade under the rule of Lan and Nynaeve, they would need heirs after all :P

Actually, it's only Two Rivers and Borderland men who have that mentality, for everybody else it seems rather subdued. In Thom's case he's just pissed that she got killed without reason.

1. And this somehow proves she's not selfish because...? It seems to me this point actually supports my point.

2. That was only Siuan covering herself. Elayne could have refused, IF she wanted to scrub pots.

3. Elaida is a Red, who is trained with men who can channel. While it is debatable whether she could have helped against Rahvin, it seems strange that Rahvin decided to make a move on Morgase after Elaida left.

4. Yep, it did. Elayne running away and the WT covering it up directly caused the rift between Morgase and the WT. There was no other conflict between Morgase and the WT except that. I could even argue that this chain of events led to the split of the WT, because it forced Elaida to return.

5. It is very clear that Gawayn disliked Siuan solely because she wouldn't tell him where Elayne was. The only reason he supported Elaida was the hope that Elayne would return to the tower.

6. Iirc, that was indirectly her fault too. She fell asleep when she was supposed to be monitoring Nynaeve.

1. So she's selfish cause she rather go out and do something "fun" rather than sit and do chores? What person in the world would rather do chores then hang out with their friends? I mean, I accepted the chores I had to do in the army with a smile, but that doesn't mean I actually enjoyed it or wanted to do it if I had a choice.

2. Again, point one, who wants to scrub pots when they can have an adventure with their friends? Stop demanding every character to be jesus.

3. Elaida returned to the WT long before the split, she went with Elayne, Gawyn and Galad back to the WT. When Morgase visited the WT and Elayne was missing, Rahvin had already more or less taken control of Caemlyn, and when Morgase wanted to return, she refused Elaida to return with her. So no, it has nothing to do with Elaida, she would've been crushed like by Rahvin.

4. Again, Elaida was already in the tower, and she was already investigating into Rand, nothing to do with Elayne running away. And as pointed out, had she died she would most likely had been killed by other BA members, now THAT would've truely destroyed any relationship between Andor and the WT.

5. Gawyn is a fool, quite simple, he knew that Min knew about them, but couldn't tell. He knew that Min and Elayne was good friends and that she would've been afraid for her safety as well if that was the case, yet he still refused to accept it. Utter fool.

6. No, it was not her fault, we've seen time and time again that it's more or less impossible to wake somebody from the dream, and with Moghedien actually forcing Nynaeve to stay in the dream, there would be absolutely nothing Elayne could've done to wake her up.

The Accepted tests in both TDR and TGH.

Then theres also the constant mentioning of the shared baths in Shienar in the start of the TGH, never described though.

Oh, and the rather strong suggestions the Cairhien gives Rand at Barthanes Damodreds party in TGH. While it's not nudity, they sure do seems to want to do other things then just talk with Rand.

When an Aes Sedai says something straight out, yes then people are reluctant to trust them. She choose to withhold the information for them, knowing that their nations might very well be underneath the Seanchan rule before anybody gets a chance to react. Yet she still insist on her idiotic idea that they should bring their entire armies.

Egwene tries to comfort Illian and Tear saying they will get gates back to their cities if there are any signs of an invasion. At the same time though she thinks to herself that the Seanchan most likely knows traveling by now and in that case a gateway back home wont help them.

So in that case, yes Egwene is in fact at fault, she manipulates the nations to come giving them a false sense of security. Just for the sake of "intimidating" Rand, her childhood friend..

Where is the evidence that Elayne left the Waygate unguarded? Verin's letter says that it is guarded and thought secure (although granted Verin wasn't necessarily up to date on these things) and that this was insufficient - nothing short of outright destruction would be, according ot the letter.

No evidence, I didn't claim it was left unguarded, I just said I doubt she would've paid attention to the Waygate being guarded when she took over. Especially considering she never thought of it during the talk about the invasion.

The Tower does not have nearly enough soldiers to help with the Borderlands. At the Field of Merrilor, Egwene can both try to change Rand's mind as well as organize the defense.

The Tower constantly boast about it's power and how it can make monarchs jump when they say frog, yet you are trying to tell me that they aren't able to organize sending armies or at least sisters to the borderlands to aid the defends? No, it seems rather obvious she intends to use the armies to "force" Rand in the case he wont dance on her leash, she even thinks about replacing Darlin because he wont move his entire army there in fear of the Seanchan.

Now, my question is, how on earth does she hope to achieve that goal? intimidating Rand and/or "force" him with armies that are for all practical purpose sworn to him?

Rand did not destroy the Waygate nor did he use the weave he did on the Waygate at Shadar Logoth. As simple as that. Of course she would. She can't be seen as accepting the throne from Rand as that would do away with her legitimacy but that's another argument.

I'm not saying she should've accepted his help, I agree with her decision there, I'm just merely pointing out that he had put guards at them, and I doubt they were ever replaced after she came into power. Rand can hardly be at fault there really, last he was in control of the city the Waygate was as safe as he could make it. Putting on the ward would really serve no purpose in Caemlyn, as it would still give the Trollocs plenty of time to slaughter the citizens, and he didn't have any means to destroy the Waygate until long after Elayne took control of the city. So guards was by far the best solution, she just didn't replace those.

Why wait until AFTER the meeting with sending support to the Borderlands? No, she clearly wants to use them to intimidate Rand, which truly baffles me. She mentions him forcing her hand, does she intent to use force against Rand and his followers? Fighting among each other when TG for all practicality have already begun and the Borderlands being overrun are just idiocy.

And how can you put Rand at fault for the invasion? He put guards on the Waygate when he was in control of Caemlyn, but Elayne was rather quick at throwing out anything related to Rand as soon as she entered the city. Which I suppose includes the guards at the Waygate and I doubt she replaced those.

You know, I've been wondering why Egwene have been so insisting that the monarchs should bring the majority of their armies to the field. Surely the Monarchs and various important people from the nations including the required retainers is more then enough. Does she believe that she can intimidate Rand with an massive army?

Regarding Andor however, there is the question whether Elayne actually brought her army to FoM, she went to FoM directly from Cairhien it seems, and she only brought a part of the Band with her to Cairhien. So unless she had the Kin open gateways for her army to move from Caemlyn to FoM, the majority should still be in Caemlyn.

Then stop reading the books, if it annoys you so much :) Not every fantasy story have to be a blood bath with major characters dying left and right.

The gateway that snapped close on Gawyn was because Perrin moved into Tar Valon with the dreamspike at the exact same time. As for the messenger, he got killed before it ever reached Egwene, if I don't remember wrong Egwene mentions it the day after the battle in Tel'aran'rhiod.

like any normal person would do, if they weren't born in the WOT universe

. But Rand was born in the WoT universe, and it just seemed bizarre. Imo a character like that in any book would seem odd.

I somehow suspect this complete lack of communication between people, especially male and female, is a doing of the third age. Something you can most likely blame the Aes Sedai and The White Tower for starting and further encouraging with their manipulating and so forth. So Rand suddenly being reintegrating with his previous life, 400 years during AoL, would make him realize how stupid this kind of behaviour is.

You know, I somehow doubt that's his inner most thoughts. He never let slip in one way or another to anybody else that he intentionally went to WT with the purpose of angering Egwene and getting her to gather all the monarchs for example. It just seems he's far more honest and open about things that really serves no point in being kept secret, like any normal person would do, if they weren't born in the WOT universe :p