I don't think Dyelin ever definitely had a majority of supporters among the High Seats. She had 6 High Seats supporting her, 7 if you count herself. The 4 underage High Seats maybe would've supported her if she hasn't told them she's for Elayne, but that's unclear. Elenia, Naean, Arimilla, Nasin, Carind and Lir were never for Dyelin.

Setalle Anan is no longer an Aes Sedai and her meeting with Elayne and Nynaeve eventually lead to finding the Bowl.

The existence of prophesy is very different from the widespread acceptance of it, which you are arguing for. I see no evidence that most people in Randland think it's right to abandon everything else for the Dragon - after all, relativily few of them had done it, and most of them were presented negatively - Masema and his followers being the most notable example. In fact, it's pointed time and time again that it often leads to disastrous results - Ghealdan, Tarabon and Arad Doman, the countries with the biggest dragonsworn population, were the most damaged during the course of the series. Look what happened in Ghealdan when a significant part of the population listened to Masema's words how only the Dragon mattered - the country become a total mess.

Speaking of this prophesy, I couldn't find it in the Karaethon cycle, all I could find was that the Dragon is breaker of bonds, but no mention that he'd break all bonds. I am pretty sure the "all bonds" part was mentioned somewhere, so I'd be thankful for a quote.

So pointing out that the Dragon breaks all bonds, as is stated many, many times in the texts and accepted by virtually everyone in-world

I really don't think that's correct. The people who decided to become Dragonsworn are a minority in every country. More importantly, they are seen by others mostly as fools or even bandits. Masema's followers, the Dragonsworn in Tarabon, Arad Doman and Altara were mostly feared and disliked from what I recall, the reaction certainly wasn't "The Dragon came, so they were right to abandon everything else, good for them", but very much the opposite.

Bashere himself thinks it's highly likely Tenobia will have his head for going off to serve the Dragon Reborn, and that she has more than enough reasons for that.

I'm actually refering to the nobles who watched Rand practice with the sword early in LoC. Names escape me, and they may not have been part of the all-powerful 19 who elects the throne, but they didnt seem insignifican either, like the houses that later came to Elyane's aid. Dyelin might have the supposrt of all nobles with stiff upper lips, but others are gonna be with rand for any advantage they can grab.

Those nobles are among the 19 High Seats actually.

Though how much they'd have supported Rand in the case of war is hard to say. After all some of them declared for the throne when Rand left Caemlyn at the end of LoC despite that the Aiel army was still there. They were fawning because they expected to persuade Rand to help them for the throne, not to support him as a King of Andor.

Not to mention that mat only came to Ebou Dar because Elayne went there and he had promised Rand to stay close - if it was another Aes Sedai sent instead, he wouldn't have come, and without his ta'veren influence, who knows whether the Bowl would've been found at all in time.

Elayne did propose Dyelin, but Dyelin refused.

Now I'm not saying she should use the one power as a weapon, and annihilate the contenders for the throne, but use some "Aes Sedai" intimidation. Flex the muscle a little bit and stop politicing so much. Fear is a great motivatior espicially for the mercenaries that seem to be figting on both side of the conflict.

How exactly? They already have seen the Gateways which were used extensively and were extremely helpful. If this didn't conince them, I don't see what else could've done it short of using the Power as a weapon.

To be fair to Thom, given the situation in Cairhien as we saw it in TGH, the civil war was inevitable even without his intervention. He probably still feels somewhat guilty, I guess, or maybe not, who knows, he only has two brief PoV after that.

Funny that he got involved in Moiraine of all people after having to kill two other members of the Cairhien royalty for threatening to kill or killing his girlfriends at the time.

Speaking of which - does Thom feels guilty for killing Moiraine's brother Taringail?

When Mat escapes from Ebou Dar in WH he shows a sea folk windfinder how to remove the collar. He doesn't remove it himself, just teaches her how to do it. However if I remember correctly from Egwene's capture one can't even touch the collar/do something as a means to escape.Then is this an author's mistake or am I just missing something here?

PS:Sorry if this was already answered. I couldn't find it anywhere.

Mat removed the collar of the Windfinder, then showed her how to do the trick which opens it so she could release the others after the waiting period has passed. It's a bit vaguely written, admittedly.

1. And this somehow proves she's not selfish because...? It seems to me this point actually supports my point.

2. That was only Siuan covering herself. Elayne could have refused, IF she wanted to scrub pots.

3. Elaida is a Red, who is trained with men who can channel. While it is debatable whether she could have helped against Rahvin, it seems strange that Rahvin decided to make a move on Morgase after Elaida left.

4. Yep, it did. Elayne running away and the WT covering it up directly caused the rift between Morgase and the WT. There was no other conflict between Morgase and the WT except that. I could even argue that this chain of events led to the split of the WT, because it forced Elaida to return.

5. It is very clear that Gawayn disliked Siuan solely because she wouldn't tell him where Elayne was. The only reason he supported Elaida was the hope that Elayne would return to the tower.

6. Iirc, that was indirectly her fault too. She fell asleep when she was supposed to be monitoring Nynaeve.

1. It proves that your point that she left the Tower because she was spoiled and hated scrubbing pots is wrong. As for selfish - I don't see it in those cases. In TGH she left the Tower to help Rand and support Egwene and Nynaeve. Definitely irresponsible for a heir to a throne, but hardly selfish. IN TDR, she left to try and stop the Black Ajah - which I really don't see how it can be described as selfish.

2. Of course Elayne could stay, I never claimed otherwise, just correcting your claim that Siuan didn't want her to be a BA hunter.

3. Remember that young Red in Caemlyn who Elaida sent to spy that Rahvin turned into his personal plaything with complete ease? She never had a chance. Same would've happened to Elaida. Do you really think that Elaida the moron who's probably 5 times weaker in the One Power had any chance against Rahvin?

4. Yes, it caused the rift, though Rahvin probably would've caused it himself anyway later. But it didn't cause Morgase's entrapment by Rahvin and eventual exile and rape, the Andoran civil war and all that. That was Rahvin's work and would've happened anyway.

5. It's not so clear actually - a big part of his reason was Egwene, not Elayne. And why blame Elayne for Siuan's evasions and Gawyn's hotheadedness? Gawyn himself never did it and for a guy whose life has been apparently ruined, he seems fine to me as of now (apart from being bonded to Egwene, but there's no accounting for taste, I guess).

6. No, she didn't fall asleep. She even tried to pull Nynaeve out of TAR, but everything happened so fast, she couldn't do it in time and it wouldn't have helped Birgitte anyway. But still, it was definitely Elayne's fault, just like the civil war in Shara and Seanchan and the famine in Arad Doman.

I agree with a lot of the points Toy made, she has no regret or remorse for far too many of her actions. Having a good work ethic does not mean a person is not spoiled. A big flaw in the character for me is the way she expects people to allow her to lead them around by the nose. People talk about how Gawyn is mistreated by Egwene but look at how he grew up being an accessory to his sister, it is what he has been conditioned to accept. She won't even acknowledge Galad as her brother for no reason other than he does what is right instead of indulging her in what she wants. She even expects the freaking Dragon Reborn to obey her of all things and talks about treating him like a Warder.

Elayne's bossy, but not more so than most women in this series. She was brought up to be a heir to the throne, after all, but is still less bossy than half the Aes Sedai we've seen, or Nyneave and Egwene.

She has a general hissy fit any time someone else does not fall into step agreeably with what she wants and has no concept of consequences for her actions. Concerning Birgitte and unweaving the gate I do not think it is a matter of being unselfish in her intentions but rather that she had no thought for what might happen. Demanding to get your own way constantly and not realizing the impact of your actions and decisions are as un-Aiel as anything, hence why I do not find the Avi and Elayne relationship logical at all.

What about Sorilea? She's way more bossy than Elayne, yet is considered the perfect Wise One.

Besides, saying that Elayne "has hissy fit any time someone else does not fall into step agreeably with what she wants" is plainly wrong. See TGH and TDR, where she clearly accepted Nynaeve to be the leader in Falme and on the way to Tear. Later they shared the leadership between them.

Actually, Joiya only wanted to trap Nynaeve and Egwene, and likewise, Siuan only wanted Nynaeve and Egwene to be her Black Ajah hunters. In both instances, Elayne stated that she hated doing chores and wanted adventure, inviting herself on both occasions. Essentially, she hated chores so much she preferred to run away.

Uh, no. The part about going away because she hated the chores because was clearly a joke, both times. Here's a quote:

TGH, Ch. 38

 

Suddenly her somber mood vanished in a giggle. “Besides, do you think I would pass up an adventure so I could scrub pots?”

And BTW, Siuan definitely wanted Elayne to be a Black Ajah hunter - she just couldn't say it straight out to her, because then she wouldn't have been able to evade Morgase's inevitable questions. So she told Nynaeve and Egwene, and expected them to tell Elayne, as it happened.

Also, the first time Elayne ran away, she created a rift between Morgase and the WT, causing Morgase to expel her AS advisor, thus opening the door for Rahvin. This caused a domino effect where Morgase was raped by Rahvin, abused her allies, fled Andor, was raped again in Altara, was reduced to a maid, was kidnapped by Aiel, and was tortured by Aiel. This also caused Elayne to start another War of Succession, killing many thousands of Andormen. Elayne's running away also caused a rift with Gawayn and Galad too. Both of them became disillusioned by the WT, so Galad ended up with the Whitecloaks (although this turned out to be a good thing,) but this led Gawayn to support the stilling and near-execution of Siuan and Leane. He will probably feel the guilt of killing Hammar and Couldain for the rest of his life.

What? Please explain how Elaida would've been able to stop Rahvin. He'd have come to power in Andor no matter whether Elayne have left the Tower or not. Not to mention that Liandrin had planned to have Elayne killed if she hadn't left the Tower with Nynaeve and Egwene in TGH, which would've ruined the Tower - Andor relations even more than her running away. Blaming Elayne for what happened with Morgase is completely ridiculous.

Now, I agree that her running away was really irresponsible act for a heir to a throne, but this doesn't mean that it lead to all the disasters you claim. And I really don't know how it's her fault that Gawyn is an idiot who decided to get involved in the Aes Sedai internal strife.

I'm not an Elayne hater, but to say she's not selfish completely ignores all events and facts to the contrary. The only time she's felt the slightest bit of remorse was when she didn't write a letter to her mother the first time she ran away, and also when forced to apologize to Mat by Avi. When she met Gawayn in ToM, she had no idea how much she ruined his life and made a hugely condescending remark about excusing him from his duties as Captain-General.

She ruined Gawyn's life? Really? I don't recall Elayne forcing him to get involved in the Aes Sedai internal affairs or to kill his teachers. And she excused him from his duties as Captain-General because that's what he wanted, I don't see what 's condescending about that.

One example showing that Elayne is not selfish - bonding Birgitte when she was on the brink of death. Not only she risked being grief stricken for years if the most likely happened and Birgitte had died, she also risked a really serious punishment if the Aes Sedai ever learned that she had bonded someone while she was still an Accepted.

Sorry that this seems to be drifting off topic.

Was flipping through ACOS and POD the last couple days and one thing came to mind that I always found completely unbelievable and out of character, that being the relationship between Aviendha and Elayne. Given Aiel sensibilities and culture (which Aviendha is as hardcore about as anyone)I always found it ridiculous that she respected and admired Elayne so much given her spoiled, selfish and completely out of touch with reality personality. I shake my head everytime I read a scene about the two of them interacting, much less becoming first sisters.

Well, good thing then that in fact Elayne is neither of those things makes it a lot more understandable.

 

Are you reading the same series as I am? Elayne is the most petulant and immature character I can think of in the story who rarely if ever learns from her mistakes or grows. At this juncture she is the only character I am praying dies. AMOL could be ten pages long and I would give it a thumbs up if it involved her death.

I guess then there's not much point in discussing this further, since my position regarding is completely the opposite.

Though I just have to note that I don't get how Elayne can be considered spoiled, when that she had no more problems doing all the menial chores required of the novices and Accepted than the other novices, is a better seamstress and cook than Egwene or Nynaeve and didn't mind sewing and cooking plenty of times during their travels, nor did she ever complained not having personal servants while in the Tower or travelling with Nynaeve. Apart from Morgase, she was brought up mostly by Lini and had Gareth Bryne for a main tutor, both of of which were undoubtedly strict and didnt tolerate childish tantrums, Daughter-Heir or not.

Was flipping through ACOS and POD the last couple days and one thing came to mind that I always found completely unbelievable and out of character, that being the relationship between Aviendha and Elayne. Given Aiel sensibilities and culture (which Aviendha is as hardcore about as anyone)I always found it ridiculous that she respected and admired Elayne so much given her spoiled, selfish and completely out of touch with reality personality. I shake my head everytime I read a scene about the two of them interacting, much less becoming first sisters.

Well, good thing then that in fact Elayne is neither of those things makes it a lot more understandable.

rand appointed Darlin as his steward, Darlin was elected King though Rand just didnt oppose it, thus Darlin is the king of Tairen initiative not by apppointment.

So by extention of what you said should egwene not get a free pass for anythign elayne might do of her on initiative? elayne is egwenes subordinate

 

Darlin swore fealty to Rand, was appointed as Steward and then chosen as King. The fealty part still applies, Steward or King. Egwene herself acknowledges this when she references his loyalty to the man he was sworn to.

 

Elayne, on the other hand, has never sworn any oaths of fealty to the Amyrlin. In fact, Egwene goes on at some length about how wrong it would be of Elaida to have Aes Sedai do just that. Custom might urge Elayne to follow Egwene's lead but there is no legal binding upon her that I'm aware of.

Tower Law in theory gives the Amyrlin almost unlimited power over the Aes Sedai and openly defying her orders is considered treason. Though in practice the situation is much different and the custom gives the Aes Sedai plenty of ways to evade following the orders of the Amyrlin. And a monarch Aes Sedai would be considered an unique case probably - Elayne at least thinks so.

PoD, Ch. 20

 

Necessary and right, though; when she sat on the Lion Throne, she would still be Aes Sedai, and subject to the laws and rules and customs of Aes Sedai. Not for Andor — she would not give her land to the White Tower — but for herself. "

Darlin is King of Tear, but Rand is still in control of Tear and gives him orders, so ultimately it's mostly his responsibility.

If the Amyrlin seat tells someone to come, you come. It's been clearly stated multiple times. Even the Lord Captain Commander of the Children of the Light would go if ordered by the Amyrlin seat.

That applies to the monarchs personally (and it's probably an exaggeration), but not to their national armies. No Amyrlin has had the authority to straight out order the summoning of the Randland armies at her command for millennia.

As much as I hate to defend Egwene, I would say Rand is much more to blame if Tear or Illian get attacked with their armies away. Those are his realms after all, and he planned for their armies to come to Merrilor. I suspect he may've even given Darlin and Gregorin permission for that - it's strange that both of them would be willing to openly defy him. Even if he didn't, he still could've easily stopped them from coming if he had taken action in this direction instead of letting Egwene proceed with her plan since it suited his intentions.

 

 

Wasn't that just because there was no place to sleep?

 

I think after the black sisters kidnap attempt, they refused entry to all other AS...what does audience with the queen having anything to do with lodging.

Joline was most probably denied audience because she was one of those Aes Sedai who sided with Elaida, since the Tower hasn't been united yet at this point.

As for the original question - I don't think so. It's not shown onscreen, but it seems coming to Merrilor was Elayne's decision and Egwene didn't try to order her to bring Andor's armies there or to bully her, she just asked her and Elayne decided that's the best course of action.

Apart from the Blight, which is an aberration, it's quite clear that it's warmer in the South and colder up north. The winters in the Borderlands are really cold, but in Illian it never snows, etc.

agree with all those who said repetitive descriptions, characters' lack of communication, the series being stretched out to sell more units (especially between #8-10)

 

and I would add the all-too-contrived elements of nudity / sexuality that seemed to appear after the first 3 books (most likely at the behest of tor, again in order to sell more units). sex and violence sells and unfortunately making money is always the bottom line, and I mean RJ originally struck me as a fairly modest author otherwise, who would have stayed away from those topics for classiness' sake if left to his own devices, and to me it just seemed like the suits / corporate stepped in and said "here's what we want" which jordan replied "(sigh) ok I'll try. 'nynaeve folded her arms beneath her breasts.....'"

Jordan wrote Conan the Barbarian novels before WoT, which had a lot more sex and violence and spanking beautiful women than the early WoT volumes. I've heard his other series Fallon Blood has plenty of sex scenes and innuendo too, though I haven't read it.

And of course, last but not least, the lack of casualties on the good side. There are only so many "OH MAI GAWD I ALMOST DIED BUT LUCKILY I JUST BOWED MY HEAD TO PICK UP A QUARTER SO THE ARROW AIMED FOR MY HEAD FLEW PAST ME" one can deal with before it gets stupid.

So much win.

My main problems are Jordan's tendency to sacrifice character consistency for plot convenience. Too often people behave totally out of character to serve the plot. Like Perrin not even considering going to Rand for an army to help him free Faile instead of to the Seanchan. He's not the sharpest tool in the drawer by any means, but he's not that stupid.

Jordan's extreme "Men are from Mars, women from Venus" views are also really grating. Not only I disagree with it on principle, but the whole "Men never understand women" (and vice versa) is repeated way too often throughout the series.

But Hopper attacked the Whitecloacks first, they killed him in self-defence.

How about those Whitecloacks Perrin killed when he freed Gaul? I am wondering how Galad would've taken it if they knew about that. That's more of a self-defence case, since Perrin was attacked first, but he was also caught freeing a prisoner and armed.

You mean Adeleas (who was killed while interrogating a captured Black Ajah member) and her twin Vandene, right? Adeleas was killed by Careane, one of the Aes Sedai who were with Elayne and Nynaeve in Ebou Dar and Caemlyn, and who was Black Ajah.

Yeah, Caraline was probably too young back then - her age is never given, but she looks an awful lot like Moiraine, who had slowed. Given the cutthroat politics in Cairhien and the dire situation the country was after the Aiel War, I doubt someone under 18 would've had a chance to gather enough support for the throne.

Besides, IIRC only Moiraine's siblings were discussed in NS out of Damodred's possible claimants. Galad and Barthanes weren't mentioned either.

All Kin are Tower trained, they don't admit wilders.

Logically some of the untrained must gain concious control of the Power, after all someone taught herself first how to channel saidar once upon a time without a teacher. It's probably very rare, but it must happen once in awhile.