To fionwe1987

 

"Fishwives know to distinguish between good and bad sword strikes? Since when?"

 

Why make such a silly comment?

Its not silly.

The point was clearly being made that the Green sister was simply encouraging her warders with basic comments like "good strike". Now I am no soldier but I am perfectly capable of acknowledging a good fighting technique, as is any average joe.

Of course they're not!

This in no way means she has any specialist knowledge.

She's familiar enough to be able to distinguish a good stroke from a bad one, which, despite your claims to the contrary, isn't common knowledge. No one is claiming she's a Blademaster.

If she had been demonstrating the fighting techniques then it would have proved otherwise.

So a person can be called an expert in warfare only if they can lead a war? Maybe you'd like to go say that to war historians and reporters who've covered wars.

 

And to say that skirts, divided or otherwise prove no encumbrance in comparison to trousers when moving on foot over battlefields that are wet with blood and littered with craters from big explosions is obviously not true. Common sense and a chat with any female soldier in Afghanistan would answer that one.

I'm aware of no woman soldier in Afghanistan who can smooth craters and dry blood in an instant. Maybe you'd like to point out some of these mysteriously hidden channelers in the US army...

 

 

 The Gathering Storm; The Last that Could be Done

"Elza ran toward the door. She vanished before another bar of light, her entire figure becoming light for a moment" 

 

Done, lol. 

Contrast that with:

M’Hael released this second weave of balefire, fracturing the ground, but Egwene was ready. She sidestepped, her anger building.

In the actual battle, Aes Sedai skirts seem to be no encumbrance. 

Ya but it has been pointed out clearly that the WO's can run as fast as the other Aiel in their skirts.Quite the opposite for the AS.

If you can show me a situation where an Aes Sedai in divided skirts stumbled and fell, or died because she ran too slow, then you'll have a point.

Aviendha was also in skirts:

She leaped through, skirts swishing, the One Power held like thunder somehow contained. She landed on a slope overlooking the battlefield. Below, Maidens and men fought Trollocs; it looked as if the Aiel were holding back a vast black flood.

These were not even divided skirts.

 

 

And all AS do not have warders.And even if you do why would you not learn all these things if you ur primary aim is to fight the LB?

This is the primary aim of one Ajah. Which is notably filled with sisters who are generally described to be fitter and more capable than others. And they have mutliple Warders. And their quarters are filled with swords and knives and shields, and it can be inferred that at least some of them are capable with knives.

 

Look at the description of Keren Nagashi, and the Greens. from NS:

 

 

>>Rina Hafden, who somehow made a square face lovely and a stocky build both elegant and graceful, was urging them on with a wide smile, calling, "Well struck, Waylin! Oh, very well struck, Elyas!"

lockquote>

 

She's clearly not clueless about sword-fighting, even if she doesn't fight herself.

 

 

>The few tapestries in Kerene's sitting room were scenes of war or hunting...

...daggers adorned with gems and gold and daggers with plain wooden hilts...

...a steel-backed gauntlet stained black with what Moiraine was sure was blood...

...violence and death decorating her walls...

... Even here, she wore a riding dress, the divided skirts slashed with emerald green, and her dark hair, lightly touched with white, was cut shorter than either Karile's or Stepin's, above her shoulders, and gathered in a thick braid. No doubt it was easier to care for while traveling, cut like that ...

 

The Greens, at least, are very martial. We've seen Yellows and Blues with similar attitudes too. All that just never came across in Brandon's writing.

 

And please go see what divided skirts and riding dresses look like. They're nowhere close to as encumbering as full skirts are, and allow much quicker motion. That's what the Aes Sedai were dressed in, likely.

 

 

There is a statement in AMOL from Egwene I think which says that they cannot run fast in the skirts they wear.

 

The only quote is from Pevara, and she didn't ride a horse into the battle.

 

 

And all AS do not have warders.And even if you do why would you not learn all these things if you ur primary aim is to fight the LB?

This is the primary aim of one Ajah. Which is notably filled with sisters who are generally described to be fitter and more capable than others. And they have mutliple Warders. And their quarters are filled with swords and knives and shields, and it can be inferred that at least some of them are capable with knives.

 

Look at the description of Keren Nagashi, and the Greens. from NS:

 

 

>>Rina Hafden, who somehow made a square face lovely and a stocky build both elegant and graceful, was urging them on with a wide smile, calling, "Well struck, Waylin! Oh, very well struck, Elyas!"

lockquote>

 

She's clearly not clueless about sword-fighting, even if she doesn't fight herself.

 

 

>The few tapestries in Kerene's sitting room were scenes of war or hunting...

...daggers adorned with gems and gold and daggers with plain wooden hilts...

...a steel-backed gauntlet stained black with what Moiraine was sure was blood...

...violence and death decorating her walls...

... Even here, she wore a riding dress, the divided skirts slashed with emerald green, and her dark hair, lightly touched with white, was cut shorter than either Karile's or Stepin's, above her shoulders, and gathered in a thick braid. No doubt it was easier to care for while traveling, cut like that ...

 

The Greens, at least, are very martial. We've seen Yellows and Blues with similar attitudes too. All that just never came across in Brandon's writing.

 

And please go see what divided skirts and riding dresses look like. They're nowhere close to as encumbering as full skirts are, and allow much quicker motion. That's what the Aes Sedai were dressed in, likely.

 

I don't think these are very convincing arguments for the AS knowing anything about fighting with weapons.  Rina wasn't calling out sword forms or giving an informed commentary on her sparring Warders.  Her comments could have been made by a fishwife.

Fishwives know to distinguish between good and bad sword strikes? Since when?

And there is no evidence from Kerene's belongings that she knows anything about using any of them.  I think one of the daggers is a marriage dagger presented as thanks for resolving a marital dispute or something like that. 

You're mixing her up with Meidani, a Grey.

I think it is more likely that the weapons forming part of her collection were either presented to her ceremonially, or maybe trophies/relics to remind her of battles.  I very much doubt she was wearing a gauntlet.

I think its more likely one of her Warders was. I'm not saying she personally uses all the weapons. She certainly never used the hammer! The point is that her quarters are very martial in their decorations, and she has many weapons, and she's always dressed ready to ride off. That's as close to combat ready as she could have been, short of RJ converting her into a chainmail bikini wearing caricature of a female warrior. We've seen any number of Aes Sedai wear belt-knives and daggers. We've even seen one of them use it when shielded (Vandene, a Green). I don't quite see the point of them training in swords, though. Or becoming masters at hand to hand combat. I'm yet to see a realistic situation where this would be useful for them.

 

Channeling, as we know, is physically draining enough. Leaping about with swords will only add to that. The Aes Sedai solution is best. Take on skilled warriors, boost their speed and strength, and boost your own endurance, by using a Warder Bond. For the last resort, maybe carry a knife.  

Oh, I totally agree. As I said, I agree that they did well. 

 

And yes, they have warders, which are supposed to take care of things. However, that doesn't mean they should wear unsuitable attire. 

I don't think they did. They all rode horses, and we know they don't ride side saddle in the WoT world. They must have been in riding dresses, which Brandon just failed to describe.

The Death Star was a perfectly formidable fortress apart from that one ventilation shaft. 

 

I was merely saying that you can't dismiss it as a flaw. I agree that it is fairly inconsequential, and don't agree that it means they are stupid - however, it is still something. 

 

That of course goes for all of the other's you mentioned. I was only responding to Aes Sedai, but I don't limit it to them. Aviendha frequently thinks how silly it is for her to be wearing those skirts in battle. In fact, IIRC, she disposes of her Wise One garb when going into battle at Shayol Ghul. Anyone who wears inconvenient clothing into battle - no matter who or how powerful they are - is needlessly endangering themselves no matter how good they think their defences are. Why would you even risk it? 

 

Edit 2: For that matter - I don't even restrict it to women. I would say the same of a male channeler if he chose to wear unsuitable clothing. I can't recall this ever being a point, but if it is, then I say the same about them. 

 

(of course, I understand what you mean when it is silly to single the Aes Sedai out .)

 

Demandred has a sa'angreal and 400 Ayyad, yet he wore full battle armour. Of course, his flaws lay elsewhere, but the point remains. Not that I expected Aes Sedai to wear full chain-mail, but something comfortable and easy to move in at least. 

How much of Demandred wearing armor was ceremonial, though? Rand didn't wear armor either.

Also, I mentioned the Kandor battle not because it invalidates their skills, but because that battle isn't valid for assessment. The Shadow was letting them win to draw them into the trap, which was then sprung and things went downwards from there. 

But it is valid for assessment, so long as you assess the right thing. Is it a good assessment of their destructive ability against non-channelers? Yes, though tempered with Brandon's nonsense about circles not being used. Is it a good assessment of the level of fear the Shadow felt about them? Yes. Is it a good assessment of their skills against channelers? No.

That the trap was needed does indeed show the Tower as a threat, but that wasn't my point. It was in reply to an example of their prowess was the Kandor battlefront. Which it wasn't. As Egwene herself thinks, they were doing TOO well. Making their performance invalid since it was designed to make them think they were awesome. Not that all the effort is invalid of course, just that it was an unreliable account of their performance 

I don't think it was designed to make them think they were awesome. It wasn't as if the Trollocs were sent in fewer numbers. The point was to keep them engaged, and draw them into a situation where the Sharans could attack an empty camp, and throw the already engaged Aes Sedai frontlines into chaos. That the Aes Sedai had to be attacked when they were engaged by overwhelming numbers of Trollocs is telling, no? Brandon never really alluded to it, but as far back as LoC, the Aes Sedai had a very effective strategy to deal with unexpected channelers in their midst. They'd form circles and engage them. While no single circle the AS could form would have been able to match Demandred's circle of 72, they'd have been able to engage them enough to allow for an ordered escape, if Demandred attacked while they were resting in camp. They needed to be far away, and split into smaller forces dealing with Trollocs for Demandred to successfully damage their army. And still, the army regrouped remarkably quickly.

But overall, as I have said, they were far from incompetent. Far from perfect, but certainly non-negligible. Things would have been far worse if the Tower was not at the LB.  

Yup, that's my assessment too. They could certainly have been more. But they were far from insignificant. Barring Mat himself, they were certainly the next greatest asset for the Light. Which only points to how much greater they could have been if they'd pulled their shit together sooner.

Edit: With Graendal, also remember how she was finally taken down. Aviendha speared her - made of the OP, true, but any spear would have worked.(Yes, I know she wasn't instantly killed, but that blow was the thing that ended her killing spree.)

Yes, but its not like Graendal could have countered this attack better if she knew to use the sword. Aviendha's true victory over Graendal only came with the unwoven Gateway.

And all AS do not have warders.And even if you do why would you not learn all these things if you ur primary aim is to fight the LB?

This is the primary aim of one Ajah. Which is notably filled with sisters who are generally described to be fitter and more capable than others. And they have mutliple Warders. And their quarters are filled with swords and knives and shields, and it can be inferred that at least some of them are capable with knives.

Look at the description of Keren Nagashi, and the Greens. from NS:

Rina Hafden, who somehow made a square face lovely and a stocky build both elegant and graceful, was urging them on with a wide smile, calling, "Well struck, Waylin! Oh, very well struck, Elyas!"

She's clearly not clueless about sword-fighting, even if she doesn't fight herself.

The few tapestries in Kerene's sitting room were scenes of war or hunting...

...daggers adorned with gems and gold and daggers with plain wooden hilts...

...a steel-backed gauntlet stained black with what Moiraine was sure was blood...

...violence and death decorating her walls...

... Even here, she wore a riding dress, the divided skirts slashed with emerald green, and her dark hair, lightly touched with white, was cut shorter than either Karile's or Stepin's, above her shoulders, and gathered in a thick braid. No doubt it was easier to care for while traveling, cut like that ...

The Greens, at least, are very martial. We've seen Yellows and Blues with similar attitudes too. All that just never came across in Brandon's writing.

And please go see what divided skirts and riding dresses look like. They're nowhere close to as encumbering as full skirts are, and allow much quicker motion. That's what the Aes Sedai were dressed in, likely.

Not that I agree with everything that has been said - there is a fair point there. 

 

It is the mentality that Taim's men possessed, and that mentality which was given as an example to their downfall. Rand insisted on the Asha'man learning the sword, because he realised that channeling is not supreme. It's pretty much spelled out in ToM and aMoL. Coteren was disdainful of physical conflict, and Jonneth shot him with a bow long before he could channel. 

 

While I do think the Aes Sedai acquitted themselves well, and it doesn't make them as incompetent as some others would like to make them out to be- it is nonetheless a flaw in their mentality, and a flaw in battle strategy. Just because it shouldn't be a problem, it doesn't mean that they should ignore it and defy logic just because it isn't likely. In battle, EVERY advantage should be seized. Wearing skirts is a disadvantage which was unneeded. But again, as I said, it was a relatively small thing. Still, you can't dismiss the point. 

 

Also, just a few other small things. The Tower battlefront in Kandor only went well because that's how Demandred planned it. It was an intentional trap. Not to say it takes away all their effort, but it mitigates it. They were awesome until the Shadow got serious. 

 

I agree that the FoM shouldn't be held against them though. They were outnumbered and outgunned. The Sharan's were much better at battle and Demandred alone in his circle and sa'angreal was a huge inconvinence, they couldn't be expected to do much against it. In fact, as was said, they did better than expected given the circumstances  (Although that really was 90% Egwene rather than the Aes Sedai.) In any case, point is, they didn't shame themselves. 

 

Now I don't want it to be taken as Aes Sedai being incompetent. They were severely impaired - that can't be denied. They are a fallen institution and only recently re-unified. However, they weren't totally incompetent. They managed to do themselves justice. They could have been more if the Tower didn't tread the path it did for 3000 years, but as well wish Saidin wasn't tainted. They did well with what their predecessors made of them, and that's all you could ask of them. 

Hmmm... I remember reading something about Aes Sedai not ignoring the physical aspects of battle. I could have sworn it was in there somewhere. They have these immensely skilled bodyguards? Warders, I think they're called? :P

Who was the most effective channeler we saw in the LB? Graendal. Did she dance about with a sword? No. How did she deal with physical attacks? She had compelled slaves jump in front of her.

The Aes Sedai did something different. They bonded men who were trained to be the best warriors in the world. And while the Warders were severely shortchanged in the book, look at earlier books to get an idea of how well Warders work. Look at Perrin's description of how the Aes Sedai enter the fray in LoC. They simply walk, with gowns and everything, and the Warders clear the area around them. Its a strategy that worked perfectly fine.

And I think its perfectly ridiculous to single out Aes Sedai for wearing gowns (not that I think you are, Barid). The Aiel wear bulky woolen skirts, the Damane and sul'dam wear dresses and are even more physically encumbered than the AS due to their ridiculous leash, the Sharan's wear gowns too, if different in cut. Can anyone name one female channeler who fought in anything but skirts or gowns? 

As for Demandred... it is strongly implied that he did, in fact, chose to lay a trap for the Aes Sedai. But isn't that a testament to the threat they posed? Fallen from their glory years, severely reduced in numbers, just recently reunited as a single force, they still posed the most severe risk to the Shadow. Demandred chose them, not the Seanchan, or the Aiel or the Borderlanders. 

To be sure, the Aes Sedai could have been much, much more. But I don't think Demandred laying a trap for them semi-successfully takes away from them. To the contrary.

There is one Egwene arc, written by 2 authors.Now when discussing this one character you cannot say that Sanderson's Egwene has split personality disorder while RJ Egwene does not IMO.

I say that about almost all the characters handled by Sanderson. Egwene is just one case of it, and not even the worst.

Rand Perrin grew up together cannot compare that with a 2 years relationship which is what Elayne and Egwene had.And anyway as usual we we see Egwene paranoia in dealing with Elyane "I will not call them Elayne's Kin", "Do not want ot obey her in the last battle and set an example" etc

 

As insecure as ever.

That is Sanderson's take on her, and it was ridiculous writing to boot. I have no doubt RJ intended to set up some conflict between Elayne and Egwene's plans for the Kin. They both have a point. Elayne was right that Egwene's plan really didn't give the Kin anything to do. Egwene is right that one nation grabbing channelers like this will have severe consequences. The right answer is the middle ground, where the Kin essentially become the norm, and Aes Sedai are free to enter it after a period of service with the Tower, and the Kin belong to any nation they choose, and can do anything they choose, including providing Healing and Traveling to Andor for a cost, so long as they don't violate AS laws, and so long as all female channelers don't bind themselves to one nation to the detriment of others.

Sanderson, of course, gave us absolutely none of that. Can anyone really see Egwene hearing of Elayne's plan and not considering how it affects her great work in bringing all female channelers together? In the end, the alliance she set up was her great work, the one thing that's going to be her most lasting legacy. It makes zero sense that she would have a throwaway thought about it and then forget it all.

 

Depends, I guess, on how much these things matter to you. Elayne and

Egwene got along pretty well despite both being ambitious successful

people, probably because of those traits. They could both see a

similarity, and what Elayne was trained to do for years, Egwene picked

up and applied to her own life, making it easier for them to really get

each other. Same with Rand and Elayne. And I'm still miffed we didn't

get more of Rand-Egwene where we could see this play out.

 

I don't think there was enough interaction between Elayne and Egwene post-Egwene's raising to Amyrling to really maintain their friendship.  Elayne was off to Ebou Dar and then spent the rest of the series playing politics in Andor and Cairhien.  A couple of information/order-giving meetings in TAR and a brief scene before the meeting at the FoM doesn''t really add up to friendship.

By that yardstick, Rand and Perrin aren't friends either. Egwene had weekly meetings with Elayne for a long time. Most of them were offscreen, but that doesn't mean they didn't happen. 

Tbh, Elayne and Rand suffered from the same issue, except even worse.  They were apart for more than 75% of the series.  Maybe its easier to have powerful friendships when you hardly ever spend time together!?

I don't see why. Sure, these people had different power bases, and hence reasons for some conflict. That doesn't mean they couldn't be friends.

 

 

Alright, here is the friendly warning to keep things civil etc...

 

 

On topic, I once bothered with the Egwene discussion years ago, but now I don't. For me, I like her fair enough as a character, she does good work for the Light, and it's more than can be said for many characters. Having said that, any annoyance/ dislike I may get while reading is simple: She would be extremely annoying if she was a real person. 

 

I don't see much need to prove hating on her. (Not that I hate her mind you) Just say she is annoying as all hell. 

Hmmm... I actually feel she'd be the least annoying real person. She's definitely the least whiny of the Two Rivers bunch, and she's the only person among that crew who actually wants to make something of herself. Who she is in the end is not because of what happened to her, its because of choices she made, and changes she accepted and dealt with. In many ways, she the most modern of RJ's characters, the one who'd fit easiest to today's world. She's about the only character (among the younger cast, at least) I can see myself actually having a discussion with and expecting an intelligent response from. The rest tend to be too parochial, too resentful of the existence of a wider world that invaded their flyspeck village.

 

As for a character I would find truly annoying, I'd have to say Mat. I feel the strong urge to smack him on the head even writing about him. He was immense fun to read when RJ wrote him, but god is he a total jackass.

 

That's perfectly valid, it's your opinion. 

Of course. Who someone wants as a friend is deeply personal. Same as who you find annoying. I was only trying to point out that the same actions by the same character can be viewed in a very different light.

There is no way to argue that people find her insufferable and annoying however. She might be alright to talk to in a discussion, even as an inspiration, but as a friend, well, I would get tired of her quickly. 

Most ambitious and successful people aren't exactly the easiest people to get along with

Depends, I guess, on how much these things matter to you. Elayne and Egwene got along pretty well despite both being ambitious successful people, probably because of those traits. They could both see a similarity, and what Elayne was trained to do for years, Egwene picked up and applied to her own life, making it easier for them to really get each other. Same with Rand and Elayne. And I'm still miffed we didn't get more of Rand-Egwene where we could see this play out.

Read here, the Dragon Reborn is ALWAYS male because a soul can not change gender, but apparently there is a female equivalent that can be spun out if needed, but she isn't that DR and doesn't serve the same purpose.

That's exactly what I was thinking.

Indeed there is a quote to the effect of if the pattern needed a female equivalent to the Dragon it would weave "*insert female Dragon name here*" and that you can find her in the scene where Mat blows the horn. He did follow that up with this however:

 

 

Q: Mr. Jordan, is it possible that in another age, another turning of the wheel, that Saidar could be tainted instead of Saidin? This relates to the Female Dragon Theory.

A: That is not something I intend to explore.

A word of caution as well about "Thus Spake the Creator". Although a good source all in all, I know there are a number of old timers who were skeptical about the complete reliability of some of the quotes.

The part with the Female Dragon being there when Mat blew the Horn seems very unclearly written. I'm not quite sure its a trusted source, as you say.

 

 

So trying to wrap my head around the Nakomi entity.

 

A theory of mine is that Nakomi is in essence the caretaker of the wheel/pattern. She has the knowledge of how the pattern is weaved and can be nudged to make certain events happen. Sorta like it is mentioned that the wheel weaves as the wheel wills. Well what if there was a person at the center of that weaving? How I got to this is that there are 7 ages/spokes in the wheel and we know at some point the DO will be released somehow. Thus the Dragon's soul is spun out and we start down the same path again. So let's say in the last spinning of the wheel we go though all the DO being released and the person who is Dragon at that time seals it back up again, as a reward for "winning" or fixing or bringing the pattern back into balance, that person now becomes the caretaker of the pattern in the waking world. 1 caretaker per spinning of the wheel.

 

So let's say Nakomi was the previous winning Dragon in the prior spinning, she is now caretaker. Now as the spinning continues, the same events happen again, DO is released in some fashion, and now it is up to Rand in this spinning to put it back into balance, he does and the final job the prior caretaker has is to transtion her role to the new Dragon(Rand) so that he may now be the caretaker. Thus why both Nakomi and Rand appear to have the same thread/weaving ability within the pattern.

 

My guess is that once Nakomi did her job of making sure Rand survived/transtioned to new role in the end, she will then disappear and now it will be Rands job to be the caretaker, up through the next spinning of the wheel, when this will all happen again. Rands role will then be to help the next Dragon transtion to their role as caretaker, etc, etc, etc.

 

Ramblings of a long time WOT reader.

 

This is exactly the conclusion I came to about Nakomi. The One Power is comprised of saidin and saidar, so it seems plausible that there is both a male and a female Champion of the Light. Seven ages ago it was saidar that was tainted (then cleansed), and Nakomi was the one to save the world. These two souls alternate every seven ages between the more active role of World Savior (being born and dying, channeling saidin or saidar, being tested and making sacrifices), and the more passive role of Caretaker (living and wandering through all seven ages, weaving the pattern, and ensuring the DO cannot attain ultimate victory).

Rand is the CoL, it is his soul that is spun out time and again for that purpose and souls don't change gender.

> 

Aan'allein

It would be the same soul, or it would be a different soul?

 

Robert Jordan

It would be the same soul. That is, that is the belief of the world

that I've set up, that it's the same soul. It's a soul of someone bound

to the Wheel, which is spun out for the purposes, for the Wheel's

purposes really, to attempt to re-balance the Weaving of the Pattern.

 

Aan'allein

But the soul would always be male. Souls don't change gender, so ...

Robert Jordan

...so the soul of the Dragon Reborn is always going to be male,

just as Birgitte's soul is always born as a woman, just as Ameresu's

soul is always born as a woman. There are divisions here, and they are

not interchangeable.

 

 

Interview: 2001                                                         

Thus Spake the Creator (Paraphrased)                                                                                   

 Signing Report (Workings of the Wheel)                                            

Robert Jordan                                           

 

Female Dragon..NO when a female hero is needed she is

one of the ones bound to the Wheel. Jordan did mention a name but I

didn't hear it. But he did say the Dragon is never female.

 

 

Hmmm... I notice that nothing here suggests that another Female soul can't be the Dragon's equal. In fact, given how central the issue of Balance is, I would have to thing there would have to be one such soul. Not called the Dragon, and not taking on his exact role, but doing her own thing that is just as important. There may be other Ages, and other fights, for which she is as central as the DR, for all we know.

Alright, here is the friendly warning to keep things civil etc...

 

 

On topic, I once bothered with the Egwene discussion years ago, but now I don't. For me, I like her fair enough as a character, she does good work for the Light, and it's more than can be said for many characters. Having said that, any annoyance/ dislike I may get while reading is simple: She would be extremely annoying if she was a real person. 

 

I don't see much need to prove hating on her. (Not that I hate her mind you) Just say she is annoying as all hell. 

Hmmm... I actually feel she'd be the least annoying real person. She's definitely the least whiny of the Two Rivers bunch, and she's the only person among that crew who actually wants to make something of herself. Who she is in the end is not because of what happened to her, its because of choices she made, and changes she accepted and dealt with. In many ways, she the most modern of RJ's characters, the one who'd fit easiest to today's world. She's about the only character (among the younger cast, at least) I can see myself actually having a discussion with and expecting an intelligent response from. The rest tend to be too parochial, too resentful of the existence of a wider world that invaded their flyspeck village.

As for a character I would find truly annoying, I'd have to say Mat. I feel the strong urge to smack him on the head even writing about him. He was immense fun to read when RJ wrote him, but god is he a total jackass.

 

 

 

 

 

 

(POV ruminations don't count)

 

 

why ???

 

POV's ruminations don't count in the real world ( as noone can really know what's in another's brain ) but it's a book man , POVs ruminations are a way for the author to make us understand the character ... you will never understand truly a character ( Egwene or another one ) if you read only half what the authors writes about it ...

POV

 

Point-of-View (POV) narration is an effective way to tell a story, but it should be said over and over that POV is a CHARACTER'S perception of the world. It is THEIR opinions about a situation, and THEIR inner dialogue. Therefore, it is laden with THEIR bias, THEIR worldview, and constrained by THEIR limited information...

Very true. But you can't flat out ignore plain statements. If a character thinks in their head, "I am doing this for this reason", you can't say that they're actually doing this for a totally different reason that's a secret conspiracy so well planned that even their own conscious brain isn't aware of it.

This is why the issue of Egwene al'Vere becomes so heated: one side takes her POV's at face value, adopts her struggles as their own, and then feels offended if anyone points out the obvious, awful and hypocritical things she actually does. The first six books establish her nature; the next eight let her run free. Without a doubt, she feels that she's "uniting the Tower for the Last Battle".... In another POV, an intimate view into her feelings for Gawyn, she identifies with the Green Ajah because she secretly wants to marry her Warder.

Except she picked the Green long before she wanted to marry him, and when told that to be Green is to love men, refused that surface reading of the Ajah and asked for its deepest ethos, and identified with it... Its Elayne who decided on the Green primarily because she wanted two Warders.

Thus we are left with the impressions of her noble clarity and Aes Sedai purpose vis a vis the Last Battle, and the affection and love she feels for Gawyn, all because of her POV. Of course, no other ruler in Randland demands an oath of absolute obedience from their husband;

Have you heard of the Queen of Andor?

no other Aes Sedai requires utter fealty from their Warder.

Except Elayne rues the fact she didn't ask Brigette to swear such oaths as other AS make their Warders do. Like Lan did to Moiraine, and unlike Egwene who never asked Gawyn to formally sweat fealty to her... Yes, I'm seeing what "no bias" means, here.

But Egwene requires these submissions from Gawyn. Does she "love" Gawyn? Well, her POV says she does, so I guess the extreme requirements she makes on him are okay. Not aberrant in the least... *snicker-snicker*

Lets ask Gawyn, eh, who can feel what she feels for him through the bond?

Her reflexive behaviors and dismissive attitudes to the Dragon Reborn himself, the very "cat and meow" of the Last Battle, cause a careful reader to say: "Huh? Why is she acting like that? Didn't her POV proclaim her noble, selfless intention to unite the Tower and fight in the Last Battle? Yeah, I can see that she's got issues with breaking the Seals and all, but why is she dealing with him from a position of mistrust and opposition?

Because Rand gave people plenty of reasons to mistrust him. Not least his, "I'm going to break the Seals, tata!" shenanigan. That may have been a good political move, but lets not pretend it was designed to engender trust. Imagine for a minute if Rand had handled this differently. Say he asked her for a private meeting, and there told her he had been driven to near madness, and now he was out of it. When Egwene said she wanted to make sure by having an AS delve him, he said yes, and let them sense the patina of light around his brain. Then gave some proof of his memories of LTT, and after having convinced Egwene of these things, he told her that he was convinced he needed to break the Seals, based on his own knowledge and what Herid Fel told him. Do you think things would have gone down the same way?

I guess as a careful reader, I have more information than Egwene, so I guess I can understand why she has doubts.... But hey!! Wait a minute!! She ALWAYS TRATS RAND LIKE CRAP !

Yeah, no. She doesn't.

And come to think of it, she has a pattern of treating lots of people poorly, even though when I read her POV, she doesn't think she's behaving badly, so, maybe, she's as awesome as everyone says...."

Can you show me the PoV of someone she treated "badly" who thinks she actually does so, and does so out of spite? One person? I can name one... Mat, over the Tear incident. For which she more than made up by revealing the Finn Doorway to him. Rand is certainly suspicious of her being close to the Wise Ones, but as we see from what she does with them, working against him is far from her plan.

POV descriptions have inherent bias, and without looking at a character in total and seeing how they move through the world, it is soooooo easy to accept their POV at face value. This is why reliance on quoting the book instead of clear synthesis is lazy. NEVER accept the bias of a character as proof.

But never ignore their PoV either. You can't remove the context of their thoughts, and then claim your evidence is without bias.

Egwene is not a special soul,her power was only due to her position.If she was not apppointed into the Amyrlin position she would be a nothing.Rand is a special soul.They are not equal.Some people need ot be reminded of this again and again.

 

Some more comments from Peter on who wrote what...

 

Jim's ending includes Rand looking back and seeing Cadsuane watching him. Brandon wrote the intervening Cadsuane POV. It breaks up the flow a bit, but they determined this was the best way to include what happens in her POV.

 

I should also say, Rand's epilogue scene is the one Jim wrote in full, but he did leave summaries of where other characters ended up at the end of the book, plus a few lines of dialogue, and that's what Brandon built the last chapter and the rest of the epilogue from. Brandon said most of this in one of the interviews I did of him this week for various sites, so I think it's OK to say here.

Yes, and at the torchat, he confirmed that Perrin and Loial were his additions here. Cadsuane is mentioned as being seen in RJ's Rand PoV. Brandon interjected her PoV where she's made Amyrlin. I don't see any of this contradicting Brandon's statement that RJ wrote Rand's exit from Shayol Ghul.

Further, Brandon has said the entire Body-swap thing was RJ's, who left it deliberately mysterious. Do you really think Brandon would screw around with that and add a woman who tells Rand he's doing the right thing? 

 

 

 

She's nothing but a piece of intrigue placed in the books for the fans to be intrigued about. This is made clear by three things.

 

1. Her existence was not something RJ plotted for this book but something based on something Brandon found 'deep in the notes'. Which leads us to two.

2. Brandon has disavowed using the notes--rather, when he needs something, he goes and asks Maria, who does the research.

3. She didn't really do anything. Or rather, she did nothing that wouldn't have occurred just as easily without her presence.

 

Brandon needed something (a mystery for the fans, perhaps--one may note his likening of Nakomi's role to the fandom with Asmodean's), went to Maria who provided him with something he could use, and ultimately the entire thing had little to no plot relevance.

According to yesterday's twitter chat, the scene that includes Nakomi in AMOL was written by RJ:

http://twitter.com/BrandSanderson/status/294203184098967552

 

Mike Cox ‏@Mikecox20 


@BrandSanderson would like to know how much of the last chapter was written by RJ and how much did you do? #TorChat 



 

Brandon Sanderson

Verified

‏@BrandSanderson

@Mikecox20 I did Perrin and some of the in-between writing with Loial. RJ did Mat, Rand, scene exiting the mountain, and others. #torchat

ockquote>

So that seems to say that RJ did "plot" her for this book.

No it doesn't and that response wasn't a complete answer. We know Brandon added a number of things. For instance the Cadsuane part of the epilogue was Brandon as well. Brandon has previously stated the character was his.

He did say "scene exiting the mountain". And as it is written, the old Aiel woman is not called Nakomi, and can barely be called a character. If he added her to the Aviendha scene, then he's the one who wrote her as a character, gave her a name, and worked in the small clues to who she is, so that her appearance again at the end is not a total surprise.

That seems to make sense, to me.

We got very little in the way of hints about Nakomi in AMoL, but their location make this thread full-spoilers by necessity.

 

So, let's have it. Did anyone glean anything about Nakomi that we didn't know before AMoL?

 

PS

If you want another poll-option, let me know.

It seems to me that the powers she displays in ToM were akin to what Rand did in the end with his pipe, as well as how he made food taste good again. She seemed to have managed to add more coals to the fire, and make delicious food. Plus, the inspiration for her comes from deep in RJ's notes on Rand. All this suggests there is a connection to Rand. 

Another thing to note is that Nakomi's name is an obvious derivative of Nokomis, an Iroquois name meaning "Daughter of the Moon" as well as "Grandmother". These names can fit Lanfear very well, but even though I can imagine a situation where she wants the Aiel to survive, I can't see her helping Aviendha of all people, nor can she possibly have said anything to Rand when he came out of SG (she was dead by then).

The only other character that can be called Daughter of the Moon, and Grand Mother, is Egwene. I really resist this idea, because for Nakomi to be Egwene, we'd need to have time travel involved.

But consider these quotes:

Startlingly, a smile bloomed on Sorilea's leathery face. Her multitude of bracelets clattered as she shifted her shawl in a satisfied manner. "You see? I told you she would understand. She could be Aiel."

If you take what you did to meet your toh and make it so it might as well never have happened, how have you met toh? Remember your Aiel heart, girl.

She wished her Aiel heart and her Two Rivers head could get together.

Its been constantly remarked that Egwene could easily be Aiel. She even considers that she has an Aiel heart... could she just be Aiel at heart?

And then there's the manner of her death. One way or another, her weave plays with time. Its supposed to freeze someone in time, but what if it does more? After all, there are ripple effects to balefire's burning of threads back in time. What if there are ripple effects to the Flame too? What if, instead of unspooling the Pattern, using the Flame does the opposite, and creates events in the past that allow the Pattern to be stabilized in the future? 

This is admittedly so far out as to be ridiculous. But perhaps by this or some other mechanism, Egwene was actually there for Aviendha and the Aiel, and is responsible for the remnant of the remnant (the heart of the Aiel?) surviving?

And her role with Rand in the end also would make sense. We had a lot of foreshadowing of Egwene "killing" Rand. Instead, she nudges him along the path that will "help him die" but not kill him.

So, my theory is this: Nakomi is an ancient name, referring to a soul that's a counterpart to the Dragon's. She complements his purpose (as did Egwene), and also has strong ties to the Aiel. Perhaps her last birth was as an Aiel Wise One, and this is the form she choses to take even after her death in this life. After the death of Egwene's body, perhaps because of the manner of her death, Nakomi was able to do several things. Firstly, as Egwene, she conversed with Rand about death. Then she saw to the Aiel. Then she returned one last time to nudge Rand towards his "death".

And a little bit more to hint at a connection:

"If you'll excuse me," Nakomi said. "I need to see to nature."

In that moment—maiming, destroying, bringing death upon the enemy— she felt as if she were one with the land itself. That she was doing the work it had longed for someone to do for so long. The Blight, and the Shadowspawn it grew, were a disease. An infection. Egwene—afire with the One Power, a blazing beacon of death and judgment—was the cauterizing flame that would bring healing to the land.

Egwene does seem to "see to nature" quite a bit in aMoL.

Anyway, this is admittedly a whacky theory. Feel free not to add Egwene to the voting list. But... thoughts?

 

 

Anyone else feel that the flaw in Vora's s'angreal was a convenient invention? I mean, we never heard about this before and almost all angreal have that buffer standard. Really it seemed like Brandon saying, "Oh yeah, Eg's gotta die, better make something up!"

IIRC, Vora was used by Siuan to Heal Mat. So we know about it since... book three? Book four?

Think rane is referring to the lack of buffer which most certainly felt like a band aid.

The worst thing is, several times in this very book, Egwene thinks of "holding as much as she could" through the sa'angreal. Would it have killed Brandon to have her comment that she had to be careful to not overreach, because there was no buffer, as Siuan had just recently warned her?

By the way, the sheathing the sword metaphor is a really good catch, and here are some quotes that strengthen the parallel more:

Egwene reached to her side, and slipped something long, white and slender from the leather case tied to her belt. A fluted rod, Vora’s sa’angreal. It felt comfortable in her hand, familiar. Though she had only used this sa’angreal once, she felt as if it had claimed her and she it. During the fight against the Seanchan, this had been her weapon. For the first time, she understood why a soldier might feel a bond with his sword.

Interestingly, it seems Egwene had unknowingly bonded the sa'angreal to her just like Demandred had. Just another way Egwene is set up as Demandred's parallel in this book.

Next, we have:

At the very center of the explosion, Leane found a column of crystal as wide as an ancient leatherleaf tree, rising some fifty feet in the air. Frozen at its center was a fluted rod, Vora’s sa’angreal.

Vora's wand was literally sheathed in a column of light where Egwene stood, in the end. She more or less impaled herself with  her own sword to defeat the Shadow.

And then:

Logain stumbled to a halt amid the people. The air stank of burned flesh and dead Trollocs. “The Heights are gone?” he asked.

“Gone,” Androl said reluctantly from beside him. “The earthquakes took them.”

The last embrace of the Mother took the only remnants of Egwene...

I haven't read all the pages of this discussion, but it seems clear to me that, predictably, the discussion on Egwene has veered into a discussion on the Aes Sedai. Because that's what it boils down to, doesn't it? If the Tower had been portrayed as a universally lovable, filled-with-noble-women, self-sacrificing, perfect organization, then Egwene's work for it would have been lauded, and no one would have denied she was doing the right thing.

Instead, Egwene got handed the leadership of a divided, flawed, achingly human bunch of women. Yet, we never see her doubt that working for its betterment is a good thing. And the sentiment seems to be... how dare she?

I think people need to step back and look at the whole field here. Any number of Aes Sedai have a less than rosy view of the Tower, from Moiraine to Verin to Cadsuane. Yet all these women also love the Tower. Heck, even Nynaeve does. We see in WH that even she was talking about "upholding Aes Sedai dignity". We just don't have as much air-time about these women thinking of the Tower because they're focussed on other tasks.

But let's be clear. None of these women would have been able to play their wholly critical roles for the Last Battle but for Egwene. But for Egwene distracting, and later replacing, Elaida, not one of these women would have had as much freedom to do as they did. Or does anyone here want to seriously claim that any Amyrlin but Egwene would have been fine with Nynaeve going to Rand's side of the tent in Merrilor? Do you really see Elaida standing for Moiraine insisting she remember what she Dreamed?

But this is the lesser of the reasons to not dislike Egwene's obsession with the Tower. The greater reason is that barring the Dragon Reborn, the Tower was the greatest bulwark against the Shadow. And even the Dragon Reborn wouldn't have had a chance but for them. In the four-front strategy the leaders of the Light command, it is the Tower that dominates the field. It is the Tower that is such a threat to the Shadow that no less than three Foresaken focussed their attentions on it to divide and destroy it. No less a member of the Shadow than Demandred struck at them first, and Demandred's battle in Merrilor would have been a runaway success but for the Tower's heroic battles with the Sharans.

When it came down to the end, when the politicking was done (and there wad politicking everywhere but the Borderlands), the Tower banded together, and despite being less skilled in battle than the Sharans, they gave them a battle to remember. Even leaving aside Egwene's final actions, the other Sisters did mighty fine work. They penned up the Sharans by giving up their own lives and their Wader's. And that let Mat deploy whatever other strategy he wanted to in the rest of the battlefield. 

And White Tower training and indoctrination has done many bad things. Its made its women stubborn, arrogant, unbending. Its allowed the Black Ajah to exist unquestioned. But it also directly led to hundreds of women with ridiculous amounts of courage standing against impossible odds and refusing to consider surrender. They were professional soldiers as much as those from any of the other armies, but pitted against the toughest foes.

Imagine for a minute that Last Battle without the Tower's forces. And that is what they've been preparing for. And that's what Egwene saw them as. A force to be reckoned with, against the Shadow. As they were in the Trolloc Wars, so they were again. 

Given how easy it is to detest the Aes Sedai as a whole, its easy to forget how important their unification was. It did not get as much airtime as it did because RJ was trying to make story arcs synchronize (like he did with Elayne's and Perrin's stories). Its there because the fight for the integration for the two halves of the Tower was as important as the fight for the integration of "Lews Therin" and Rand. As hard as the Shadow worked to drive Rand insane, it did as much to destroy the Tower. They had good reason, and but for Egwene, they'd have been the ones throwing the party at Shayol Ghul.

 

Keep in mind that Eldrene's death already mirrors LTT's. There's elements of both here. Loss of Warder followed by overdrawing through sa'angreal to kill enemies and dying in the process is very Eldrene like. But at the same time, dying in a column of Light that eventually caused a hilly region to collapse very strongly mirrors LTT's end. Egwene also has a "kinslaying" moment, killing Sharans and her own people in her rage (and mirroring Rand in tPoD against the Seanchan), as does Eldrene, when she burns down the most beautiful city in the world (with people in it?) as she kills the enemies who took her husband.

 

Eldrene didn't kill any people; the city was empty when she destroyed it.

 

"In the Mountains of Mist, alone in the emptied city of Manetheren, Eldrene felt Aemon die, and her heart died with him."

 

That's the legend. But what exactly are the chances of a Queen sitting completely alone in a city? None at all. The entire city wasn't filled with people. But there would obviously have been people there.

fionwe1987 - you could always go with Fields of Merrilor (sp? - I've abreviated it so often I can't remember how to spell it) instead of Polov Heights, especially as Polov Heights seems to now be destroyed.

But it isn't the Fields that was the casualty of her battle. And the Heights falling is a critical element of the thematic balance in the story. Lews Therin's death raised a mountain. Egwene's felled one. Both left behind a "white tower"