Egwene stared from one to another, especially Amys and Bair. “But you told me how wrong you think what I’m going to do is; you said I must not even think about it. I said I wouldn’t, and then I went ahead and worked out how to do it.”

Startlingly, a smile bloomed on Sorilea’s leathery face. Her multitude of bracelets clattered as she shifted her shawl in a satisfied manner. “You see? I told you she would understand. She could be Aiel

Sure we read the same series?

Probably not. Yours must have had many sections blacked out. I'd search for the originals and read them with an unbiased mind.

Wait Egwene learned from her mistakes? 

Uh... yes. 

Also have to remember IMO there was too much of a push by RJ and BS to make Egwene the super wonder girl.  So I tend to ignore alot of what she does since I truly think she was being made so great to be the female Rand, so they sort of over did it with her being so great at everything.

I am talking about this post of yours.

You cannot ignore facts of the series just because you think the authors should have written things differently.

 

 

 

 

Also have to remember IMO there was too much of a push by RJ and BS to make Egwene the super wonder girl.  So I tend to ignore alot of what she does since I truly think she was being made so great to be the female Rand, so they sort of over did it with her being so great at everything.

This is kind of meaningless as a statement. RJ was the writer. If he saw Egwene as the best channeler among the women, she IS, since she's his creation.

 

 

Hardly meaningless as there was a push to make her the best.  So to compare the others and trying to say so and so is the weakest link is pointless as Egwene was made to be the perfect one who was powerful, good with weaves, learning new weaves, dream world etc...  Where the others had strengths and weaknesses.

 

So? You can interpret this as you like, but the fact is this is RJ's work. He hardly made Egwene perfect, but in his own words:

 

Excerpt From: Robert Jordan, Harriet McDougal, Alan Romanczuk, and Maria Simons. “The Wheel of Time Companion.” iBooks. 

 

 

She had many other abilities and Talents, including abilities with metals and ores and the making of cuendillar. Whatever Egwene did, she did to the hilt. She was keen to learn above all, and so she was as much Brown as Green in her temperament, with a strong dose of Gray besides.

 

Excerpt From: Robert Jordan, Harriet McDougal, Alan Romanczuk, and Maria Simons. “The Wheel of Time Companion.”

 

The explanation for why Egwene is good is simple: she puts the most work into it, seeks the best teachers, and gives it her all when asked to learn anything. 

 

 

We can basically use RJ did it or that's how RJ wanted it as answer for almost every topic.

 

Yes, which is why it is rather bizarre that you complain about it here. Egwene IS the best of the three at channeling. Saying "RJ did it" doesn't change that.

 

 

Also have to remember IMO there was too much of a push by RJ and BS to make Egwene the super wonder girl.  So I tend to ignore alot of what she does since I truly think she was being made so great to be the female Rand, so they sort of over did it with her being so great at everything.

This is kind of meaningless as a statement. RJ was the writer. If he saw Egwene as the best channeler among the women, she IS, since she's his creation.

 

 

Hardly meaningless as there was a push to make her the best.  So to compare the others and trying to say so and so is the weakest link is pointless as Egwene was made to be the perfect one who was powerful, good with weaves, learning new weaves, dream world etc...  Where the others had strengths and weaknesses.

 

So? You can interpret this as you like, but the fact is this is RJ's work. He hardly made Egwene perfect, but in his own words:

She had many other abilities and Talents, including abilities with metals and ores and the making of cuendillar. Whatever Egwene did, she did to the hilt. She was keen to learn above all, and so she was as much Brown as Green in her temperament, with a strong dose of Gray besides.

 

Excerpt From: Robert Jordan, Harriet McDougal, Alan Romanczuk, and Maria Simons. “The Wheel of Time Companion.”

Also have to remember IMO there was too much of a push by RJ and BS to make Egwene the super wonder girl.  So I tend to ignore alot of what she does since I truly think she was being made so great to be the female Rand, so they sort of over did it with her being so great at everything.

This is kind of meaningless as a statement. RJ was the writer. If he saw Egwene as the best channeler among the women, she IS, since she's his creation.

The "weak link", such as it is, is actually Nynaeve. RJ is on record saying that as of CoT, Elayne and Egwene would pass the test to become Aes Sedai easily, while Nynaeve would struggle. Cadsuane's assessment of Nynaeve's channeling skill, miraculous with Healing but dismal at anything else, also matches this.

It isn't that Nynaeve can't be good, but she's just never bothered. She can copy a weave just seeing it once, but so can Elayne, Egwene and Aviendha. What sets the others apart is how much work they put into learning a lot, whereas Nynaeve's focus was always Healing.

Elayne, while never matching Egwene's sheer speed, dexterity and innovation, was never shown to be a slouch in the One Power department. She was a few levels weaker only because of the fact that she hadn't been forced to the same extent Egwene was. And we know she wasn't weak in any of the Five Powers either, since making ter'angreal needs good strength in Earth and Fire, and we know Elayne is good with Air and Water because of her weather abilities, and we've never seen her struggle with Spirit.

End of the day, they all had different focuses, skills and abilities. Egwene's were the broadest and she made the best use of them, but that was also because she was the best student of the lot, who focussed on learning everything she could.

 

RJ pictured Egwene as a young Audrey Hepburn. The other celebrities he picked for the other female characters don't hold a candle to her.

 

She certainly has the eyes he described.

 

You mean deep dark pools/big eyes, etc. right? Yeah I'd say so. Frankly, I can't imagine what Lanfear looked like if she was better looking than Egwene, who RJ perceived as Audrey Hepburn.

RJ pictured Egwene as a young Audrey Hepburn. The other celebrities he picked for the other female characters don't hold a candle to her.

I think another reason why Rand didn't want to have a proper discussion with Egwene when he went to her at the White Tower was because he would have been extremely uncomfortable in that situation.  He is shielded, brought before the Hall of the Tower, in Egwene's seat of power, and Egwene wants to send him to Yellow Sisters to be checked over.  I think Egwene at some point thinks about if they can keep him there are guide him.  Rand seems very zen in this scene, but in AMoL we see that a lot of the Zen!Rand behaviour is actually a front.  He still has many of the same insecurities and fears that he always did, they are just better under control.  He is not completely trusting of the Aes Sedai (unsurprisingly given that the majority of his experiences with them have been unpleasant - kidnap, manipulation, lack of respect, a desire to guide him, etc.), and within the White Tower I get the impression that he would be expected to defer to Egwene (e.g. he bows to her while she does not show him any similar sign of respect).  I don't think the White Tower presents particularly favourable conditions for a meeting.

Then why go at all? This has to be the most ridiculous argument I've ever heard. He was so insecure about the White Tower that instead of having a polite conversation, he went into their stronghold and riled them up? 

 

Oh, she should definitely collect everyone in case he needs to be opposed, but what she should not have done is announce to them that she is opposing him, and that they must do so as well, before the meeting. If at the meeting things didn't go well, and it was clear that he needed to be stopped, then that is when she should have formed the opposition. What she did is choose a side, and make others choose a side, before being certain whether or not there were even sides to choose in the first place. She'd already decided that he was wrong before the meeting. The conflict may not have been a violent, physical one, but they were clearly of diverging opinions, in spite of the fact that they didn't even know the reasons for the other's opinion in the first place. Basically she should have made absolutely 100% certain that Rand had to be stopped before announcing it the various rulers, who she would have of course gathered beforehand. It was a communication mistake more than anything.

 

 

 

 

 

That wouldn't work either. She can't afford to let them all come there with no clue what was to happen, then have Rand shutter their opposition with his ta'veren nature, as he did in the Hall. Not on the off chance that Rand had an explanation that he simply refused to give her for unexplained reasons. 

Think for a moment what you're asking her to do. She's supposed to divine that there's some secret explanation that Rand refused to give her. Why? She has no logical reason for something like that. And based on this logic-less speculation, she should collect multiple armies that may suddenly have to go to war against each other?

I'm not saying she shouldn't have sounded reasonable about it. Though truth be told, we don't know how she sounded. Sure, in her letter to Darlin she said she wants to oppose Rand. But she also clearly says that his loyalty to Rand is "well measured". She can't lie, and Darlin knows that, so she made it pretty damn clear that she wasn't interested in a power struggle with Rand with the nations in the middle. 

 

I guess he just didn't believe there was anyway they could possibly know anything about the nature of the bore, or at least more than those in the Age of Legends who should of had a much greater understanding of it. So, I suppose if there's any explanation it's arrogance to me, although frankly both Rand and Egwene came across as amazingly dense during the meeting anyway.

 

 

I agree. And its a damned shame. They did have a genuine point of disagreement. Unfortunately, it wasn't close to big enough to work for the book split, so Brandon had to amp it up. He did so by making both look like idiots.

Had he gone to her in a month's time, the forces of the Light would not have been gathered and ready to move.

Why ever not? They were all loyal to him. All he had to do was send emissaries to call them to Merrilor, and send one to the Tower as well, requesting their presence. He directly ruled, or had strong alliances with, every person Egwene called to Merillor save Roderan. And if the idea of the entire ruse was to bring Demandred out, there's certainly nothing in his thoughts to indicate this. 

I think he probably thought it was necessary for all of them to witness the Amyrlin being convinced before their very eyes. They were always going to be two most important people at any meeting, and the Amyrlin has a huge amount of institutional influence over the rulers. If she is convinced then sure they must follow. Perhaps he believed the rulers would feel bullied if both he and Egwene were trying to convince them.

Then he still could have called a meeting of everyone, and announced his plans then. Why give Egwene time to rally opposition? It makes zero sense.

Also I think he didn't try to convince simply because, well, he couldn't. Ultimately he tried to coerce everyone into signing the treaty. Egwene still ended up calling his bluff, even in such a volatile situation as the meeting of Merrilor. Surely she would have done so as well, in the WT, surrounded by Aes Sedai, against Rand who stood alone.

Exactly. So wouldn't it have been better to meet her for the first time in Merillor, and give her no time to form any sort of alliance against him?

And there's the treaty itself to be considered. Egwene only cared about the seals, the peace she was fine with, and Rand being commander in chief wasn't as big a deal even if she disagreed with it. But Rand needed to convince everyone of all three, particularly the peace part, and he might have had difficulty doing that if the rulers didn't see Egwene being convinced and signing.

Except the Aes Sedai would have jumped with joy at being asked to help with such a treaty. He knows for a fact that they have wanted something like this for a long time. If he had doubts, there are tons of sisters in his retinue who'd have told him that the Tower has no issues at all with the Westlands being unified. Again, if he'd just met them all at Merillor and announced his plan, the Tower would have had no issues with his peace treaty. As ended up happening anyway.

What didn't make sense to me is that Rand wanted to be both commander in chief.... but also break the seals right away and go fight the DO. I mean it's pretty clear he can't do both at once. It's understandable that he wouldn't know that there was a precise moment at which the seals had to be broken according to prophecy, but how he could believe that he could both fight the DO and lead the armies at the same time, I have no idea. Thankfully Moiraine reasoned with him quickly on that point.

Yeah, this was simply absurd. Till aMoL came out, I had assumed, in a desperate hope that Rand's plans were actually logical, that he'd riled Egwene up into gathering all the rulers because he wanted her to take over, because he would have no time. Instead, he flipped on his entirely reasonable statement that he can't lead the battles. 

Egwene actually mentions her dream from ToM at the meeting with Moiraine, when Moiraine convinces her that the seals need to be broken. But she basically just says that it showed Rand destroying the seals.

 

 

But here is the thing MA, she didn't just try to stop him and again there is no other realistic reaction given the circumstances. She raised the forces as a buffer and continued studying the situation to discuss it at the FoM. She then comes around to saying the seals could possibly be broken but it needed to happen at the correct time. As for lacking information I also found it very odd that Rand would just offhandedly dismiss the research as "AS speculation".

 

 

The very ending of the chapter in which Rand and Egwene meet shows Egwene thinking that he must be stopped, not that he might need to be stopped. Over and over in ToM and in aMoL, it's portrayed as a confrontation between them, not a discussion.

 

Her immediate reaction is understandable. Anyone would be shocked by that. But for it to last until the end of the book is the problem. Not once does she consider that he may be right and that the seals need to be broken. She's far to self assured. Just because Rand did not bother giving her an explanation then and there, does not mean he doesn't have one.

Yes, but she can hardly wait for a month on the off chance that there may be an explanation before she collects opposition in case there isn't one. She did the only thing she could: collect those likely to oppose Rand, then give him a chance to explain himself. If what he said was satisfactory, no harm done, since those gathered would all get the reason from the horse's mouth. If he had no explanation, she had her supporters ready at hand to do whatever was needed. It would have been remarkably remiss of her not to account for both those eventualities.

Now, as to her inner thoughts, I agree that it is absurd that she doesn't consider that he may have a point till aMoL begins. That was written in too abruptly, and precisely because Brandon didn't want that avenue left open in the readers minds going into aMoL. He failed, as far as anyone who read the series closely enough was concerned.

If we account for her sudden change of heart in aMoL regarding whether or not the seals need to be broken, then the question has to be asked of why she's trying to make this meeting look like a confrontation, because that is definitely her doing. Why not account for the possibility that they can all come to an agreement, that they both have a portion of the truth? She never seems to consider that.

She may not have considered that, but none of her actions made a confrontation inevitable. She gathered opposition, including men like Darlin who were openly loyal to Rand. To the very end, she states she doesn't want it to devolve into conflict, but she's ready for it if it comes to that. That's hardly an unreasonable course of action, though her thoughts should have been written to match them, not be presented in a schizophrenic manner.

As for Rand dismissing the research I can think of two reasons: Rand is LTT, and LTT may not have a very high opinion of the Aes Sedai of this age. He may doubt the worth of Aes Sedai theories that have nothing to really back them up. And secondly it may seem very convenient from his pov that there happens to be obscure research done by some Aes Sedai that goes against precisely what he wishes to do. He's still shortsighted to dismiss it so easily though.

Neither of those reasons compute. If Rand was simply dismissing Third Age Aes Sedai for the sake of being Third Age AS, he's no better than the Foresaken who got their asses handed to them. And Aes Sedai cannot lie, so however "convenient" it looks, they can't fake the research.

@Illtempest:

First, I've seen numerous people blast Rand for not sharing information with Egwene, but I wonder if those people see anything wrong with the fact that she failed to share this bit of info with him. She certainly saw no problem ramming her dream down his throat as evidence that the seals should not be broken, so why not share this, as well as the fact that the sisters who found it came to the conclusion that the seals have to be broken but didn't think they should be broken immediately.

But she did ask him for a discussion where they could argue this out and plan things. He flatly refused. It was at that point that she decided to gather opposition against him. 

Now, as to why Rand decided to refuse her entirely reasonable request for a meeting... only Brandon can answer. For myself, I think the entire one month ultimatum to Merillor was a result of the book split. Brandon needed a way to end ToM, and a way to keep up suspense for aMoL. This ludicrous one month time gap that was based on no logical motivation was the way to achieve it.

Additionally, since other sisters found the info and read it - and came to the same conclusion - then those sisters could have easily passed that info along to someone like, say, Cadsuane or Nynaeve (someone Rand trusts and would listen to if she presented the info to him), so Egwene wasn't exactly the end-all-be-all of necessity that some people like to pretend.

Except he dismissed that as Aes Sedai speculation. He'd certainly have asked Nynaeve and Cads where they got their info from, and once they revealed it was the Tower, he wouldn't have listened. Egwene's role wasn't only to gather the info. It was to be a serious enough hurdle to Rand's plan that even when he refused to heed her knowledge, she could frustrate it. The reverse was also true, of course.

As far as the damage done by balefire, Brandon was quoted as saying that damage would've eventually healed once the DO was locked away again

No, he said the remaining Balefire damage that Egwene didn't heal would eventually be healed as the Pattern carries on. I know of no quote where he says Egwene was flat out wrong in her assessment that the rift in the Pattern in front of her was a new entry point for the DO, and could completely destroy the DO. The way her the effects of her weave are described, in fact, it seems pretty obvious that the "thinness" in the Pattern that will be detected in the next Second Age will be this patch. Which ties into Rand's point that the Dark One was something humans inflicted on themselves.

@Master Ablar

Egwene in ToM and Egwene in aMoL are rather... different. In ToM she opposed the seals being broken at all. In aMoL, she's still not convinced that the risk should be taken, but if it's necessary there's a right time to do it. Her opposition to breaking the seals is definitely toned down in aMoL. In ToM her opposition to it was rather irrational. Sure it's not a pleasant scenario, and there are probably risks, but it should still be on the table no? According to her in ToM, it really shouldn't. Had that changed over the course of the book, her stance in aMoL would have been more understandable. But seeing as even at the end of the book, she remains adamant that they should not be broken, with nothing to suggest that it's simply their immediate breaking that she opposes, her sudden change of heart in aMoL really comes out of nowhere. 

Agree that it was inconsistent as hell. But we can figure out why it was that way. Had Brandon revealed that Egwene had been researching in the Tower library, and that her position had evolved, and she had begun to better understand her Dream, there would have been less suspense about what would happen in aMoL. 

I remember multiple threads where people complained that Egwene wasn't using the Tower library. I remember pointing out that her suddenly quoting obscure Brown scholars to Saerin was a hint of her actually doing research. But that's about all we got. Brandon simply hid everything else, giving the impression that Egwene spent the month before Merrilor writing a few letters and stopping one attempted coup by the Hall. Which is so massively inconsistent with her character that I just refused to believe it.

I also find it baffling that she didn't discuss her Dream with Rand, or bring it up at Merillor at all. After the Seanchan actually attacked as her Dream suggested, her oracular powers certainly must have gotten greater respect from the AS. Its confusing that what pretty much amounted to the central reson she opposed Rand's plan was completely forgotten in aMoL.

 

I agree with a lot of what you've said, but I don't think that Egwene and Rand are equals.  Otherwise, Elaida or Siuan, or Cadsuane would also count as Rand's equals.  Yes, they are equals in a thematic sense, but in-world I don't think they are.  Rand is the Dragon Reborn.  He is a ta'veren spun out by the Pattern as the Light's champion against the Dark.  He is pretty unique.  Egwene is a democratically elected leader of one group of channeling women.  Yes, she does an amazing job of that, and her role in the final battle is critical, but that is more down to her possessing Vora's sa'angreal and figuring how to fix the damage done by Balefire.  The Seanchan, Windfinders, Kin, and Aiel all bring more female channelers (and troops in general, in the case of the Seanchan and the Aiel) to the battlefield than the White Tower.  Yes, she has a lot of sway, but so would any Amyrlin.  As far as I am aware, there is not any in-series evidence that Egwene was intended by the Pattern to be Rand's counterpart.  Anymore than say Lan was spun out to be his mentor, or Min to keep him human.

 

I'm also not 100% sure that Egwene would treat him as an equal, but I think this is down to the overall portrayal of the male-female dynamic in the world of the WoT.  There are numerous times once she has become Amyrlin that she says something roughly equivalent to 'Rand would have to be guided'.  I don't think she would accept it if Rand said she needed to be guided, e.g.

 

ToM, chp. 3 'The Amyrlin's Anger

 

'Why have you come before the Amyrlin?'[...]Have you come to make a petition, or have you come to surrender yourself to the White Tower's guidance?'

 

ToM, chp. 27 'A Call to Stand'

 

'He will need a firm, familiar hand.'

 

I'm not saying any Amyrlin would be the equal of the Dragon (though I don't understand why Cadsuane is on that list. There was no Dragon Reborn when she got elected). I'm saying Egwene, specifically, is Rand's equal. Not because of her position, though that obviously is part of it. Her equaling Rand is more about the Pattern heavily maneuvering to place the one person it knew would be able to withstand Rand at his most powerful (as a ta'veren) as Amyrlin Seat. She's his equal not because she was the Amyrlin and all Amyrlin's would be equal to the Dragon, but because she is who she is.

Its pretty clear to me that Siuan would have made a pretty adequate Amyrlin for the Last Battle. She was intimately involved in finding Rand, and by all evidence had no ideas of shielding him and trotting him out on a leash to fight the DO. But the Pattern certainly worked to have her out (Min saw a vision of her naked and stilled, Elaida mistook a foretelling to mean Elayne was critical for the LB, and so maneuvered to remove Siuan when Elayne disappeared, etc.). Elaida was the necessary stand in till Egwene could come into her own and take the Amyrlin Seat.

The clues are all there: every other character had either been awed/scared by Rand when he exerted his ta'veren effect (depending on whether it was Dark Rand or Zen Rand). Nynaeve came close to being immune, but not fully, and she was needed elsewhere anyway. Tuon was afraid and awed, separately. Cadsuane too, felt it.

Now, Egwene never met Rand when he was at his darkest (who knows what would have happened then?). But she met him when he had just returned from Dragonmount, and was exerting his influence so powerfully that a Hall full of Sitters couldn't open their mouths. But she herself had no issues. Why? She figured it out. She saw him as Rand, not the Dragon. She did it before, in LoC, too:

Egwene opened her mouth—and realized that she was about to tell him all she knew about Salidar.

Barely in time she clamped her teeth shut so hard her jaws ached, and opened herself to saidar. The sweet feel of life, so strong it overwhelmed everything else, seemed to help; slowly the urge to talk began to ebb.

He sat back with a sigh, and she stared at him wide-eyed. It was one thing toSoiow he was the strongest ta 'veren since Artur Hawkwing, but quite something else to become caught up in it herself. It was all she could do not to hug herself and shiver. 

Tuon is the only other person to have done this once. Egwene did it more than once. She refused to be awed by his trappings and power, and behaved exactly as she behaved towards him in the Two Rivers. That was evident even in Merillor (yet another place where she evaded his ta'veren pull). And for his part, Rand, once he returned to sanity, also knew Egwene would be Egwene, Amyrlin or not.

There's all manner of thematic and plot based reasons that show they were equals. That their actions parallel each others, the way their lives ended, even the fact that what finally allowed Rand to deal with the DO was Egwene telling him he needs to let her share the burden of saving the world too. But aside from all that is the fact that she treated him her equal. Everyone else had one reason or other (love, fear, awe, friendship) to turn aside from their path and simply follow his. Egwene is the one person who, at the most critical moment of all, stood her ground and refused to change what she believed. Which is why she's his equal.

 

 

Correct but all of them understood where they stood with regard to their partners. Egwene always thought herself the equal of Rand when she was not. Gawyn thought himself Egwene's equal for a while and guess what happened Egwene nearly got killed.

Maybe I'm just odd that way - but I think it would absolutely be good for people in relationships to consider themselves equals. Egwene felt she could not let Gawyn be her equal, because of his place in life and tendency to express the sense of equality in public (unlike, say, Thom, Min or Lan, who would probably know exactly when to shut up and continue the discussion in private).

But if Rand were her partner? Noone would be truly shocked if they rebuffed eachother in public, and neither would be undermined by it by book 7-8 or so.

 

Only if you take away from the story that Egwene wanted a stooge would you think she would want Rand as lesser partner... and even then, I think trying such tricks on Rand would be precisely what would be needed to fix that desire.

 

 

In an ideal world yes you are correct. But in a feudal world you can hardly expect the ruler to be ticked off in public by his/her spouse can you?

 

WoT is not a feudal world. Which is why Elayne did tick off Rand very publicly by removing his banners from her city. She never behaved like his subordinate, nor did Aviendha (who also publicly challenged him by siding with Egwene in Merillor...). 

In fact, while Egwene challenges Rand all the time, she has never once even thought that she was his superior. It was Elayne who wished Rand would kneel to her. Many other Aes Sedai may have hoped for it too. Egwene herself never remotely wished for any such thing. 

The same is true with regards to Rand, and what he thought of Egwene as well. In the end, she was his equal simply because that was the dynamic in their relationship. In the whole wide world, the one person Rand felt he needed to convince to get the rest of the world to follow his plan was Egwene. And if there was one person who could frustrate Rand's plan, it was Egwene. And she did so. It needed Moiraine coming back from the dead to mediate between them,

The entire symbolic structure of WoT screams they're equals. Egwene's represented by the Flame (that's what Min's visions revealed right away), Rand by the Fang. And the central symbol of balance in WoT is the Flame and Fang fused, in balance... equal.

As Egwene's final realization showed, there is always a balance in the Pattern. Egwene was Rand's female counterpart. Neither of them saw it that way, of course, but that is how the Pattern intended it. The world could not be saved by either of their individual plans. Only the plan that compromised between their views was able to save the world. Hence, the world would have been destroyed (and Rand would have failed), but for Moiraine.

 

 

As your Moiraine quote showed, she did, in fact, show aptitude with politics. For comparison, it took Rand two weeks of training from Elayne (mixed with kissing sessions) to come up with a plan to play the Tairen factions against each other. Why is it okay for Rand to pick up politics from his girlfriend in two weeks, but not okay for Egwene to pick up politics after months of lessons from Moiraine?

 

IIRC it was three days, not two weeks.  

 

Every main character in this series learns things at an amazing rate. Not sure Egwene tends to be singled out for this. Mat learned to juggle 6 balls at once in 2 weeks or so, and Elayne learned how to make back flips on a high rope in about the same period. Even freaking Aram become super badass with a sword in a few months.

Precisely. Compared to all that, Egwene takes a good long while to get her political acumen.

 It makes no sense to kill off Egwene due to fan pressure at the end of the last book. The series is over, it won't increase the sales or anything like this. 

 

I agree. And, frankly, I've come around to Egwene's death. Better that than married life to Gawyn. At least he proved useful in death, and let her go out in style.

James Tham:  

1) I disagree with you there. Egwene, prior to LoC, never really showed much political acumen. The quote you provided clearly states that Egwene had already thought of some of the political moves that Siuan had advised and making the 3 factions work against each other is an extremely clever move - but not something I would have expected from her prior to LoC.

I agree, but I also think this kind of isolation was necessary because RJ wanted to show how being a leader like the Amyrlin is a lonely job. But I disagree that Egwene doesn't appear human from her own PoVs. That she struggles with the absurdities and restrictions of her post are obvious. And her desire to be recognized and respected for herself are very believable, and strikingly similar to Rand's attitude too. They both fear irrelevancy, and both loathe the idea of being controlled by someone else. Which makes them all the more eager to improve themselves in politics. You see it with Rand in tFoH. With Egwene, the bulk of this is in aCoS-tPoD, though there's still plenty in CoT.

6) The only relationships she had that did not involve WT hierarchy was with Aviendha and the WO. You might disagree with me, but I have always felt that after LoC, Egwene's meetings with them was fairly aloof (esp that meeting with Aviendha in the world of dreams) and vastly different from the village girl RJ made her out to be. Certainly being Amyrlin required her to keep up certain appearances as a representative of the tower, but I think the WO were partially at fault. In the CoS, this felt like felt like the last "natural" interaction Egwene had with the WO before they turned somewhat aloof on each other (within this very scene) - in fact, it felt like a bizarre break up scene to me:

AMYS, THIS IS EGWENE. I MUST SPEAK WITH YOU.

The scene that follows has moments of affection and humor first. The serious stuff comes later, and in no way negates the fact that Egwene enjoys an obvious friendship with these women. In the same scene:

"Return to us," Bair said. "You have too much honor for these women. Sorilea already has a dozen young men picked out for you to view in the sweat tents. She has a great desire to see you make a bridal wreath."

"I hope she will be there when I wed, Bair"—to Gawyn, she hoped; that she would bond him, she knew from interpreting her dreams, but only hope and the certainty of love said they would wed—"I hope all of you will, but I've made my choice."

Bair would have argued further, and Melaine too, but Amys raised a hand, and they fell silent, if not pleased. "There is much ji in her decision. She will bend her enemies to her will, not run from them. I wish you well in your dance, Egwene al'Vere." She had been a Maiden of the Spear, and often thought as one still. "Sit. Sit."

How is this a sign of aloofness? But yes, there is a little distance, which is only natural, especially given how the Wise Ones think of the rest of the Aes Sedai. 

7) Finally, her relationship with Gawyn was always odd. Personally, I got the distinct sense that from LoC - tGS, she should have outgrown Gawyn, and that continued relationship seems forced. If anything, I thought Galad would have made a better choice for Egwene.

This, I can totally agree with. I can see her being infatuated with him. But why in the world does she love him? In many ways, I wish RJ had kept her and Rand together. Maybe they put their relationship on hold, initially, and get back together only after they've dealt with their challenges. But having the chief male and female protagonists of the series in a relationship would have been too cliched, I guess.

 

 

Perhaps it was just circumstances of the characters around her. She was left largely alone without any other main characters to bounce off and show a more human side of her. Just using Rand as a comparison, he had Egwene (and the other 3 girls) to bounce off to each other / goad each other. Perhaps not. I have not really given much thought to this.

 

Just within LoC you had her mooning over Gawyn like the girl from the village, scared shitless in the raising ceremony and then super amyrlin.

I think that's an interesting point regarding Egwene - that for a lot of the series she doesn't interact with the other main characters, and she doesn't really have anyone around that she can behave as an equal with.  Even Rand has Cadsuane and Min (and to some extent Nynaeve) who treat him like Rand rather than the Dragon Reborn.

 

I agree that this is an interesting point. While I know a lot of people have trouble accepting this, the only person in the world in the same plane of power as the Amyrlin Seat is the Dragon Reborn. But, while the DR had advisors who had no issues calling him out to his face, Egwene's advisors, even when they ended up becoming close friends (Siuan/Leanne), or trusted confidantes (Seirin and the BA hunters) were still clearly her subordinates. 

But one thing to remember is that the Amyrlin Seat is a 3000 year old position. Unlike the DR, around whom there are no rules or customs, the Amyrlin Seat has a positive glut of customs and rules to maneuver around. I think RJ's decision to not saddle Egwene with a Caduane-like character stems from this. Unlike Rand, Egwene already had a ton of restraints to her power, not to mention that her power for the longest time was contested by Elaida.

Another distinction to note is that the closest Cadsuane-like people around Egwene, the Wise Ones, had already had to time to knock home lessons into her before she gained power. Unlike Rand, she was unintentionally prepared and groomed for her role. And unlike Rand, she had rules and regulations to contain her, and wasn't quite the free agent he was. Most importantly, she got to draw upon to experience of her predecessor, not as a mad voice in her head, but as someone who became a friend.

That explains, I think, why she didn't have the kind of distinct support system Rand had.

 

 

Just within LoC you had her mooning over Gawyn like the girl from the village, scared shitless in the raising ceremony and then super amyrlin. 

 

She became super-Amyrlin in LoC? I think you're mixing up what happened later with what happened in LoC. The only things she achieved in LoC was to play the three Salidar factions (Sheriam, Lelaine, Romanda) against each other to get the Rebels moving. And that was explicitly with Siuan's help:

Siuan started to pull one of the chairs over before remembering she could move it with saidar now. "They are sitting because once they move, the White Tower really is broken. As for how to get them moving, my advice...." Her advice took a long time. Some of it went along lines Egwene had already thought of, and all of it seemed good.

She did two other things that I'd argue were even more important in the grander scheme of things, but neither of those required any political maneuvering.

One was ensuring that Nynaeve and Elayne got to go find the Bowl of the Winds. She managed that only because the Hall really wanted to be rid of the problem Egwene had created by naming those two Aes Sedai. While Theodrin and Faolain could be treated as badly as the Aes Sedai desired, the same couldn't be said for the extremely strong Nynaeve, and the future queen of Andor. Had those two remained, the Rebels would have had to accord them the status they deserved, and in doing so would have to pretty much accept Egwene's authority and hand her powerful tools who also happened to be her closest friends. Getting rid of them was a neat way to undercut Egwene (or rather, Sheriam, as the Hall must have thought, given how they assumed she was behind them being raised AS), and deny her a way to strongly influence the Aes Sedai. It just so happened that Egwene was perfectly okay with that so long as Nynaeve and Elayne got to do the truly important thing: find a ter'angreal that might break the DO's hold on the weather, and also allow them to tie the Hall to Rand.

The second was to covertly arrange for Logain's escape, and point him in the direction of the Black Tower. It was probably Egwene's most brilliant decision, and the chain of events leading from that point was critical to success in the Last Battle. But this was nothing surprising. Egwene always had a problem with gentling men. Most of it was sympathy for Rand, but it isn't like she didn't recognize the problems inherent in simply removing all men who could channel. Way back in tGH, she showed her discomfort with the notion:

"Logain," Elayne said when he was gone.

"The false Dragon!"

"He has been gentled, Egwene. He is no more dangerous than any other man, now. But I remember seeing him before, when it took six Aes Sedai to keep him from wielding the Power and destroying us all." She shivered.

Egwene did, too. That was what the Red Ajah would do to Rand.

"Do they always have to be gentled?" she asked. Elayne stared at her, mouth agape, and she quickly added, "It is just that I'd think the Aes Sedai would find some other way to deal with them. Anaiya and Moiraine both said the greatest feats of the Age of Legends required men and women working together with the Power. I just thought they'd try to find a way."

Her rational for letting Logain leave was also along those lines, and not wishing to have Rand antagonized further by Aes Sedai. Its not a matter of brilliance, merely having her priorities straight because she hasn't been conditioned by the Aes Sedai. She does unconventional things because convention hasn't been taught to her, most of the time. None of this makes her a super-Amyrlin.

I think the reason people don't object to Nynaeve being better at Healing is because its magical - you can kind of suspend reality for a magic system because you don't expect it to adhere to anything you would come across in the real world.  Besides, Nynaeve is not as good at Healing as Sumeko.  There is also the suggestion that very strong channelers are spun out by the Pattern prior to the LB.

 

I have to say, the BS books are fresher in my mind having read them most recently, so maybe that's where I am getting this from, but it just didn't seem believable to me that any of the AS would give her any respect.  

To the first part: This may explain why there's a distinction in the way people treat those two, but its far from a rational reason.

And you're totally right about the BS books. Egwene doesn't get any respect from the AS for a very long time. Only in KoD do they begin to truly believe she's someone worth watching. Till then they suspect she's Sheriam's puppet, then they change to thinking she's Siuan's puppet.

 

 

 

 

 

As for why people react negatively to her, I think its because she's the only one who becomes a leader not because she inherited it or was chosen by the Pattern, but by pure chance. So there is a sense that when Elayne or Mat or Rand do the things she she does, its okay because they have some "legitimacy". When she does these things, there's a sense of "who the hell is she to tell X such a thing?".

I think there is also the issue that 'in-world' she doesn't have much legitimacy. The every day people have reasons to believe in Rand and Elayne that make sense. It is hard to believe that an 18 year old girl would really be the best option out of all the AS in the world, or that any of them would take her seriously.

Eggy wasn't supposed to be the best option for a strong Amyrlin. She was supposed to be a puppet, and one that could easily be removed once reconciliation was made with the Tower. Any full Aes Sedai elected to that post among the rebels would likely have been executed or at least given a severely long penance and permanently kept out of Tower politics. It would also have antagonized the White Tower and made reconciliation more difficult to elect a full Aes Sedai. As we saw, the Tower/Elaida viewed Eggy exactly as the rebels (originally) intended, and wasn't really held at fault. Another choice to choose Eggy was to bring the Dragon's favor to the rebels instead of the Tower.

 

Remember it was Eggy who drove the rebels to declare war on Elaida. The rebel Hall never intended on going that far, and seemed more concerned with reintegrating with the Tower with only a few minimum concessions (well, as a whole, that was their concern... a few certainly wanted more than that), they wanted to save as much face as possible, really.

Sorry, I didn't word that very well. What I meant was that it seems implausible that Egwene is so much more competent only a few months after being raised than AS with hundreds of years experience, e.g. experienced AS asking an 18 year old girl with almost no relationship experience for advice on her Warders, and the scene where no one apart from Egwene seemed to realise that Rand was King of Illian. It just doesn't read as realistic, and it seems like other characters behave unrealistically, or are dumbed down. There isn't an 'in-world' reason for an 18 year old girl who has trained for a few months with the Wise Ones, and a few months under Siuan, to have a stronger will, more intelligence, more political acumen, more knowledge, etc. than many of the AS she seems to interact with in the WT.

As for the Illian thing, it was a laughably bad attempt to recreate the Law of War scene from tPoD. And Brandon promptly forgot it because in early aMoL, Egwene orders Bryne to help Elayne with the refugee situation in Caemlyn without bothering to consult the Hall. It was utter nonsense.

For the rest, there's no reason Nynaeve should be so much better at Healing than the Aes Sedai either. But I don't see people objecting.

I don't really have a problem with Egwene's treatment of her subordinates. In a lot of ways, I don't find it real different to Rand before he turned all zen on us - if anything, she is more reasonable in some ways.

 

I always found her chameleon-like ability to adopt everything she has an interest, while admirable, a little jarring in the tone of her narration. Hers and Rand's PoV are the 2 that has the most dramatic change. If you read a PoV in EoTW/tGH for Rand or Egwene and jump to a PoV in say FoH or KoD, the tone of their PoV is dramatically different. With Rand, you get the sense he feels like he feels like he is forced into this position. Egwene throws herself to be a Wise One apprentice then Amyrlin.

 

The switch from Accepted -> Pseudo AS -> Wise One apprentice was at least gradual, if quick. But from Wise One Apprentice -> Amyrlin, it was incredibly quick. I find that the change in tone was too sudden, and it feels like I am suddenly reading a different character in LoC and it took me a while to empathize with her again because the switch and adaptation to Amyrlin was, imo, inconceivably quick. (Rand had the most of tDR and tSR to change). 

 

The rest of the characters (barring the Zen Rand transformation) had a more gradual change, and I did not feel like I suddenly had to get to know them again (with the slight exception of the change of Matt's tone in TGS, but that isn't "Matt's" fault but the author not handling the tone as well. Egwene was like the character I knew pre raising ceremony - the moment the raising was over in LoC, she was suddenly super amyrlin. That I thought was done poorly - I might have found the transition smoother if there were more PoV of Moiraine training Egwene in the waste, but we get the sense that Moiraine was all focused on Rand and she got tidbits of the Game of Houses by happenstance. In my re-reads I have more or less accepted this sudden change in mindset, but I still remember I was quite bewildered by the change after the excitement of the Egwene obtaining the stole faded.

Egwene clearly states she listened in to Moiraine's lessons. But its also pretty clear that more than the Game of Houses, its what she got from the Wise Ones that made her a great Amyrlin. She always had Siuan as an advisor for the manipulation. But the reason she got Siuan's loyalty was because Siuan could see the true toughness in Egwene, and that was nurtured and stiffened by the Wise Ones.

As for why people react negatively to her, I think its because she's the only one who becomes a leader not because she inherited it or was chosen by the Pattern, but by pure chance. So there is a sense that when Elayne or Mat or Rand do the things she she does, its okay because they have some "legitimacy". When she does these things, there's a sense of "who the hell is she to tell X such a thing?".

Its pure nonsense, of course, because she's as legitimate as any of them. Ta'veren is nothing but the twisting of chance, and being born to someone is also a matter of chance. Heck, her becoming Amyrlin is obviously part of the same Great Web the Pattern was weaving. Like Moiraine saw in EotW, while Nynaeve and Egwene were not actually ta'veren, they were damn near close to it. So was Elayne. The Pattern desperately needed someone as Amyrlin who would have no hesitation in calling out Rand if she disagreed, but also one who wouldn't dream of hurting him to gain her goals. And other things that Siuan was just too "traditionally Aes Sedai" to do.

 

Which leads me to my biggest issue which is that I don't think that the character was written faithfully.  Egwene was a loyal, Two Rivers woman to her core.  Just like Nynaeve.  Even though she became the AS, she still held to her core values.  I don't think she held to those values in her final scenes with Rand.  Especially not when they were arguing with each other over the seals.  I just don't think she was that petty and small at the end, and yet she was written that way.  Which left me as a reader feeling very betrayed.  Egwene was willing to restructure the whole WT and take Nynaeve's words about the WT to heart and yet she acts like that in the meeting with Rand?  Maybe for people who absolutely hate Egwene then that was further fuel to the fire, but it just didn't make sense to me.

 

 

Hmm.  I guess I never really saw Egwene as a "loyal, Two Rivers woman to her core."  From the very beginning it seemed like she wanted to leave Emond's Field.  (Remember her chat with Rand about wanting to be a Wisdom somewhere else?)  But then when she found out that Moiraine was Aes Sedai, she became intent on leaving the Two Rivers entirely and seeing the world.  And then when she found out that she herself could channel, she immediately decided to become Aes Sedai, perhaps never to return.

 

I'm not saying she didn't appreciate the Two Rivers.  I'm sure she had fond memories of the place, and for instance she sent letters back to her family of a fairly regular basis, at least for a while.  But it seemed to me that after becoming Aes Sedai, she viewed the White Tower as her home, not the Two Rivers.  Her loyalty was to the Tower, and her values, while certainly shaped by the Two Rivers, seemed to be influenced more by the Tower.  Or so it seemed to me.

 

This seems to imply to loyalty to home and searching for greener pastures are mutually incompatible...