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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Thrasymachus

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Posts posted by Thrasymachus

  1. In thirty-odd years, Lan is going to be a very old man, or dead himself.  His and Nynaeve's children will be grown ups.  She will no doubt have the same thoughts as Elayne, regarding handing over the keys to the kingdom to the next generation.  

     

    And I disagree that Nynaeve would make a poor Amrylin.  She grew remarkably as a person and a leader through the series.  I'm reminded of her time practicing the 100 weaves with Beldine (? I think it was Beldine?) where she challenged the Aes Sedai tradition of basing hierarchy on strength in the Power, and how she led efforts in caring for the people of So Harbor and Tear.  She's strong-willed, to be sure.  But she also cares, something which many Aes Sedai have forgotten how to do, and more than any other, she exemplifies what Aes Sedai are meant to be as Servants of All.

     

    I also think that, because Cadsuane's reign will be fairly short as Amrylins go, the Hall will still be under the sway of Egwene's legacy and will want an Amrylin that calls back to that legacy.  And they'll want an Amrylin who will last a good long time after having four all in the span of about fifty years, two of which served barely a year each.  I also think that while they will want an Amrylin who is acceptable to the Ashaman, they'll refrain from picking either an Aes Sedai who was forcibly bonded by an Ashaman or who manipulated Ashaman into being bonded by them.  The former because allowing themselves to be bonded demonstrates weakness and is likely to be somewhat resented by the Aes Sedai, and the latter for fear that the Ashaman might resent the manipulation that drove them to be bonded.  Nynaeve is an excellent pick for that reason.  She wasn't involved with any of that.  But she did do three big things of enormous importance to the Ashaman, in helping cleanse saidin, Healing Logain's gentling, and Healing the Madness left behind by the Taint.

  2. With Egwene gone, and Cadsuane unlikely to make it the next 30 years, let alone the next century, Nynaeve will be the most storied Aes Sedai in existence.  The Aes Sedai who, as an Accepted, helped cleanse the Taint from saidin, who Healed Stilling, who as an Aes Sedai Healed the Madness left from saidin's taint.  Who aided the Dragon Reborn when he finally sealed away the Dark One.  And to cap it all off, who tamed the Uncrowned King of Malkier and married him.  Who will still be among the most powerful Aes Sedai in the One Power.  I think it's a foregone conclusion that the Hall will eventually call her to serve.  Particularly as, following Cadsuane, they would likely want an Amrylin that would be acceptable to the Ashaman, and the only one better than that would be Pevara.  And Nynaeve would be a fine leader.  Certainly a better one than Egwene would have been.

  3. Jordan wanted to finish things out with one more massive tome, rather than the three hefty ones we got.  My suspicion, though, is that that drive stemmed more from the knowledge that he was running out of time than out of any confidence that he'd be able to wrap things up in one more book.  Had Jordan not gotten sick at all, I suspect we would have gotten four or five more books in the main series, rather than the three Sanderson gave us.  As well as the Seanchan outrigger series following that.  I also suspect that were Jordan still with us, there would be additional 4th Age outriggers following the Aiel, Nynaeve's ascension to Amrylin Seat, and the White Tower's dealings with the Black Tower, and what Rand's up to in his new Moridin body.

  4. I expect that it is.  But the way that it's cut together also gives a certain implication.

     

    I think that what's really bugging me about this deep down is the dagger itself, combined with Tam's sword's lack of crossguards, or Thom's lack of a flute.  That dagger does not look like what's described in the books.  The ruby is supposed to cap the end of the pommel.  The handle is supposed to be wrapped with gold wire, not be a cast, or what looks like to me as gold leaf applied over cheap pewter.  The quillions should curve forward and resemble snake heads.  The blade should be broader and strongly curved; it's a slashing and cutting weapon, not a stabbing or thrusting one.  It's a goddamn chapter icon for goodness sake.  I've seen better ruby-hilted daggers at flea markets.

     

    And yeah, it's a minor change.  But it's a minor change that doesn't need to happen.  Nothing hinges on whether the ruby is in the crossguards or capping the hilt.  So why not make it look the way it should?  The same thing with Tam's sword.  Thom's harp changing to a guitar is tolerable because there's a halfway good reason behind it: the actor can play the guitar.  Changing Thom himself to be younger and have a more masculine energy opposite Moiraine is likewise tolerable because there's a purpose behind it.  But robbing Thom of his flute?  What's the point of that?  What's the point of making Tam's sword a generic samurai sword with heron embellishment?  What's the point of making the Shadar Logoth dagger into a cheap dollar-store stilleto?

     

    Rafe has assured us that they are trying to be aware of when they make things different from the books, and that when they do, they are doing it intentionally and knowingly.  So what's the intention here, with all these minor, pointless changes?  Change for change's sake is rarely good.  And if they can't stay true to the little things that don't really matter, (though I think Thom's flute does matter) it's a lot harder to maintain confidence that they'll stay true to the big things that do.

  5. It doesn't become central to the plot.  It's only an important part of Mat's plot because of what it does to his memory, and after that, it's merely an appendage to Fain.  The dagger could drop off the face of the earth after Mat is cleansed of it, and nothing really substantial about the story would have to change.  Indeed, Fain himself could drop off the face of the earth after slashing Rand (which doesn't need to be done with the dagger, Fain is already tainted by the corruption of Shadar Logoth, it's easy to suggest that any weapon wielded by Fain or wound inflicted by him would be likewise tainted) and nothing really substantial about the story would have to change.

     

    The dagger is only special because Mat, innocently and naively, makes it special.  Mordeth didn't want the dagger, or anything else, brought outside the city, only himself and someone he could posses.  Mordeth never intended for Mat to take the dagger.  And Mat, in taking it, wasn't being manipulated into fulfilling some 3d chess move of Mordeth's to get the dagger out into the world.  Mordeth didn't need anything but himself to get out.  Changing all that changes too much, for no purpose.

  6. You're missing the point that the treasure is not what's important to Mordeth.  Not a single bit of it.  He needs someone to accompany him to the outside of the city, and the treasure is just a ploy to get the boys to do that.  He doesn't need the dagger, and he never comes to need the dagger.  The dagger isn't responsible for his transformation into Shaisam, nor is it what allows him such control over fades and Trollocs.  It's Mordeth's own powers combined with whatever the Dark One did to him that do that.  At best, it's a particularly handy tool for him that he has an attachment to because of their common origins, and which is particularly deadly for him to wield because of the link between their corruptive powers.  Your idea of having Mordeth need the dagger specifically and from the very beginning is what muddles the narrative.  Why does he need the dagger?  What's special about it that he would specifically request Mat to get it for him? 

     

    In fact, there's nothing special about the dagger except that Mat makes it special, by sheer chance, by taking it from Shadar Logoth.  Mordeth-Fain would still have happened without Mat having taken it, and would still be just as much a threat.  But for Mat to be responsible for making it special, and for him to remain the same, core Mat, his act of making it special needs to stay the largely innocent act it is in the books.  He grabs it up in surprise to defend himself when Mordeth freaks out on them.  He keeps it because it's a weapon and this Shadar Logoth place is beyond creepy, and he isn't sure how much he trusts Moiraine's warnings yet anyway.  And their escape was chaotic, even if he wanted to heed her warnings before they left, he likely didn't have the time or chance to think of it.  By the time they're well away, its hooks are in him.  Making Mat no longer responsible for making the dagger special makes him into a gullible fool for doing what the obvious bad guy wanted to begin with: taking the dagger out of the city.  And making Mat's act which puts the dagger into play no longer an innocent act of sheer chance, but one of deliberate theft, even if in response to an apparent betrayal by Mordeth, makes Mat a liar and a thief.  And that's a core thing about Mat being broken.  Mat keeps his word, no matter what, even when others don't or wouldn't.

  7. But it's also a completely unnecessary change, and one which changes the significance of the dagger and the nature of the "bargain" made with Mordeth.  There's no reason for Mordeth to care about the dagger except that it's an artifact of Shadar Logoth which made its way outside that city (thanks to Mat's impulsiveness and sheer coincidence).  There is no reason to elevate the dagger's significance beyond that.  It doesn't add anything to the mythos of Shadar Logoth or Mordeth.  Mordeth doesn't even care if any of the "treasure" makes it outside the city, he just wants someone to accompany him there, so he can take them over and finally be free of the place.  The treasure, dagger included, is merely bait for that trap. 

     

    And it doesn't add anything to Mat's character that he renegs on the deal to keep the dagger for himself.  In fact, it substantially harms Mat's character by turning a largely innocent act of sheer happenstance into a much more sinister one of double-dealing and theft.

  8. Nothing has to stay the same for the show if the showrunners don't want it to.  But there's no good reason to make that kind of change if you're trying to stay true to who those characters are in their core.  Sure, maybe they're changing Mat.  But that doesn't change the fact that changing Mat like that is a bad idea.  Just ask Sanderson.

     

  9. Mordeth doesn't care about the dagger until after it leaves Shadar Logoth.  It could have been anything, a cup, a ring, a necklace, as far as he's concerned.  He just needs someone to agree to take something outside the walls.  That Mat never agrees to do that, that he snatches the dagger up in self-defense as a matter of chance, that the agreement which actually frees Mordeth is made with Fain, is significant.  The dagger isn't special until after Mat leaves Shadar Logoth with it.  And even then, it is only special insofar as it is an artifact of Shadar Logoth, imbued with the same evil that killed that city.  It could have been a cup, or a necklace or a pile of gold.  And if it's being offered as payment, then why not a pile of gold, or a necklace or some other shiny bauble?  Changing things so that Mat makes a deal to get the dagger changes Mat and it changes the significance of the dagger.  And it's not necessary and risks changing too much for a character that's already risky to adapt well.

  10. My hope is that the audio's from a bit earlier than the interior shot of Shadar Logoth or the scene where Mat opens the dagger's case.  From the street level, where the boys encounter Mordeth and he tries to negotiate them into helping him bring stuff outside the city.  I'd rather the dagger's case be opened as part of their discovery of the treasure room, so that Mat can take the dagger spontaneously.  I hope that the implication here, that Mat is given the dagger as some part of bargain, is a bit of a misdirection.

     

    And I would hope that Rafe takes Sanderson's advice, and experiences to heart.  Mat's hard to write and hard to get right.  Try to change or caricature-ize him, and you'll get it wrong.  And Mat's not some kind of wheeler-dealer master trader.  He's a gambler and a rogue-with-a-heart-of-gold, who eventually becomes an unbeatable tactician and military strategist.  He knows horses because his dad was a horse-dealer.  He'd rather gamble than trade, and even when forced to bargain, he ultimately only cares about getting what he wants/needs for a price he can pay, not getting the very best deal he can.

  11. I don't think it's pulled from a trailer.  I think it's a standalone mini-teaser.  It looks like clips from three different scenes, and some Mat lines probably pulled from somewhere else entirely as well.

     

    I am puzzled by the implied change here, though.  It seems as though they're having Mat accept the dagger as part of some sort of bargain.  In the books, Mat takes the dagger out of reflex, it's not given to him.  And while it may not really matter in terms of the dagger's effects, I think it makes a difference to Mat's character.  

     

    Mat snatching up the dagger to protect himself from Mordeth is an act of happenstance and coincidence.  The dagger happened to be there close to hand for him to grab; he wasn't manipulated into doing it, though it ultimately ended up serving Mordeth's immediate purposes of being released from Shadar Logoth.  In grabbing it and keeping it, in spite of Moiraine's warnings, Mat's unpredictability and disdain for authority are demonstrated to the audience.  But the circumstantial nature of its acquisition, and the sort of immature childishness with which he justifies keeping it, preserve the underlying innocence of his character.  Yes, he made a mistake, but that mistake was ultimately a rather innocent one.

     

    By having Mat receive the dagger as part of a bargain, Mordeth succeeds in manipulating him, where in the original story he does not, at least not in the way he intends.  That turns Mat from someone unpredictable and difficult to lead into someone gullible and manipulable.  And insofar as Mordeth is this shady character they find lurking in what's supposed to be a dead and haunted city, it makes Mat a somewhat shady character too, willing to bargain with such a fellow and retain his "payment," even after the dire warnings Moiraine specifically gives about being given things by this entity.  This is much less a mistake than an intentional act, and it is far from an innocent one.

  12. Mat's luck isn't something he can consciously control.  And a good part of his luck comes from being ta'veren, which he no longer is after MoL.  His luck, whether good or bad for him, serves the Pattern and whatever place it has for him.  Having a building fall on him was hardly "good luck," after all.  But it is just the luck he, and the world, needed to keep him in the place the Pattern needed him to be in.

  13. She doesn't say the wish/boon will unravel, merely that there would be some unpleasant consequences, including not coming back.

     

    Verin describes the relationship of the realm of the 'Finns to Egwene, in discussing Tel'aran'Rhiod and the mirror worlds.  Parallel to Randland's reality are the mirror worlds; places where different choices had been made, or difference chances realized.  The portal world visited by Rand in The Great Hunt, and the parallel experiences had by everybody in their portal-stond trip to Falme, were mirror worlds.  But where those worlds can be conceived of as parallel to the "main" one, there are also other worlds that are not "what-ifs" of the main one, but entirely different, populated by different beings and ruled by different laws of physics and magic.  Presumably, the Ogier come from one such world.  Tel'aran'Rhiod permeates and surrounds them all.

     

    However, all the worlds, parallel and perpendicular, bear the same fundamental relationship to the Creator and the Dark One.  All realities fall should the Dark One win.  We see the snakes and foxes in armor fighting Shadowspawn in MoL, when Perrin and Slayer are fighting near the Bore at the end.  The Finns are not creatures of the Shadow, merely so different that they seem bizarre, even evil, to us.  I would not even put it outside the bounds of plausibility that there are humans native to the realm of the Finns, which they keep as livestock, to feed on their emotions and make into leather.

     

    What does seem clear is that there is a binding treaty between their world, and ours that governs trade and interactions between our respective realms.  Any good treaty is not one-sided.  The Finns don't grant wishes, they make trades.  You have to specify what you'll pay for the things you want, and if you don't, they'll specify the price.  For the Finns who answer questions, their part of that bargain is likely that they get to savor the emotional response, in return for answering truthfully.

     

    It seems that where things get dicey is when someone asks for something the Finns can't deliver.  Questions touching on the Dark One are likely to be unanswerable by the Finns, because of the way the Dark One stands outside the Pattern, not just Randland's Pattern, but the Pattern of all worlds both parallel and perpendicular.  Boons or favors asked to deal with the Dark One are likely to be similar.  You can't ask for something to kill the Dark One, or be free of his influence, or safe from his forces, because they don't have that power any more than any other realm would.  But once you've asked for something they can't deliver, you've stepped outside the bounds of the Treaty, and they can deal with you as they wish.  It's worth noting that visiting the Finns to ask questions or request boons is considered dangerous, even without asking for things touching on the Dark One.  It's entirely possible that if you go to them and ask them for a Chodean Kal access key and they don't have one and can't make one, you'd end up disappeared just like if you'd asked for a dagger that could kill Shai'tan.

  14. You don't need a lot of in-depth real-life military strategy, because 99% of viewers are not gonna be experts of military strategy.  You only need enough that the plans seem to make sense to the average viewer, and have just enough of a suggestive wink at the truth to enable the few who do know about that stuff to suspend their disbelief.  The "brilliance" of a battle-plan is demonstrated to the audience by the dialogue of the characters talking about the results of this or that engagement, or by showing those battles being won while their commanders never face much in the way of personal danger.

  15. 3 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

    It’s not really that hard. I can think of 3 ways to do it off the top of my head:

     

    (1) the kidnapping plot encompasses all three women. Elayne due to politics, the others due to the connection with Rand. 
     

    (2) the Emond’s field girls get caught by Liandrin while hunting Black Ajah. 
     

    (3) they go with Elayne because the girls become close friends during their time at the Tower (which is essentially the book’s plot)

    It's four women.  Why does everybody always forget Min in the Falme adventures?  

     

    And what do the girls have to become close friends over, if not their common interest in Rand?  You can contrive all kinds of reasons to throw them together, but the only way that makes sense and stays true to who those characters, the emotional journeys they are about to begin, and the mythic roles they are to take is that common interest.  

  16. Yeah, I was replying more to mistborn's idea.

     

    The problem with waiting to establish Elayne's romance with Rand until the Stone is that it makes the Wonder Girl's team up itself really contrived.  If you change the Liandrin betrayal to be about getting rid of Elayne, how and why would Nynaeve, Egwene and Min get swept up in it?  In the books, the girls bond over their shared connection with Rand.  Without that, you have to make something up. 

     

    It makes sense for the Dark side to want to eliminate Rand's known friends.  Cause him pain, and all that.  It makes much less sense for Rhavin to bother doing away with Elayne when he already has Morgase wrapped around his little finger.  She's an irrelevant trifle, as far as the Shadow's concerned, who can be axed or enslaved/Turned whenever.  Elayne doesn't become a real threat to the Dark side, or a real target either, until after she goes back to Caemlyn for the Succession crisis storyline, where she begins to stabilize Andor politically, and get them ready to be a powerful fighting force for the Last Battle.

     

    Elayne's emotional journey just doesn't make much sense unless her motivation begins with meeting Rand and becoming interested/besotted with him.

  17. See, I disagree with making Elayne's romance with Rand a mere political convenience.  Insofar as this is a story about their emotional journeys, Elayne needs to be in actual love with Rand, the same as Min and Aviendha, and he needs to love him back.  That love-quadrangle is a vital part of their emotional journeys.  Insofar as this is also a story about people taking on the roles of mythic figures as fate demands, Elayne needs to actually love Rand in her role as Mother in the mythic Maiden-Mother-Crone triad.

  18. Put me down for a Comic Con trailer drop, then.  Jordan Con's too early, and both that and Dragon Con aren't high-profile enough to be tied into a major series first-trailer release.  Comic Con's a little early for a late Fall series release, but not outrageously so.  And a Comic Con first-trailer release gives plenty of time for a second trailer to be initially released at Dragon Con before being widely shown on Prime and elsewhere.  Two trailers, one debuting at Comic Con and the other debuting at Dragon Con, would work pretty well with a late October-November release.

  19. I think this is a case where absence of evidence is evidence of absence.  No announced casting of Elayne, Gawyn, Galad or Morgase, at this late stage, means they're probably not in.  I don't know of any reason why they'd hide that casting from us.  I think it's reasonable to assume that Caemlyn has been cut.  That's not a decision, however, that I like very much, so I hope, despite the evidence, that it hasn't been cut.  And I would be even more doubtful of replacing Caemlyn with Tar Valon.  I am already somewhat doubtful of expanding Logain's early role, but I'm willing to give it a shot.

  20. But Elayne's not just part of the plot because she's the Daughter-Heir of one of the most powerful nations.  It's also because she fell in love with Rand.  That she's Daughter-Heir determines the course of her plot.  But what makes that plot development a main story is that she's in love with Rand and acts to aid him, and he reciprocates.  Otherwise, Colavere, as presumptive heir of Cairhein, would have as much claim to main character status.

  21. Well, there's a reason that formula has become so, well, formulaic.  It's because it works, and works pretty well to keep audiences engaged and keep the series "fresh." 

     

    And I would argue that the Forsaken never really play that kind of "Cersei Lannister" kind of villain role to begin with.  That's Elaida, Sevannah, Suroth, Valda/Bornhald territory.  The Forsaken are always these mysterious, outside, ancient, largely inhuman and inconceivable threats and influences, except for Asmodean and Moghedien, who exist specifically to be humanized, not by revealing their underlying humanity, but by humbling them.  You're not ever supposed to really understand or sympathize with a Forsaken, except as an inconceivably and fundamentally broken "human" with way too much power.  The villianousness of the Forsaken is cartoonish, and is intentionally so, both to maintain the fantasy side of this fantasy drama, and to distinguish them from the more mundane human villians who pose just as much of a threat.

  22. Ultimately, that's why I'm fine with including Tar Valon in the first season, as long as Rand and co. don't come anywhere near it.  I can think of ways to do all that, though, without needing Tar Valon yet.  And I don't think you can put Caemlyn in Season 2, at least, not until near the end, and only if they intend to end Season 2 where the Dragon Reborn ends, mashing The Great Hunt together with it and Season 1.

     

    But there's better places to sacrifice to make room for those scenes.  Baerlon and Whitebridge and almost the whole Caemlyn Road sequence or even Fal Dara.  Caemlyn, as a center of political power, is important to establish as an element of the world-building too.  And it's important for Elayne and Rand's relationship development.  "Love-at-first-sight" is perhaps trite as a plot device, but it's better than having Elayne participate in the Wonder Girl's adventures up to Tear for no good reason for a man she hasn't even met yet.

     

    Cuts of scenes and characters, or amalgamations of them, have to be done so carefully in a series like this, or you risk opening up plot holes that could sink the Titanic.

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