Mark, I'm not sure why it's crucial for us to classify those more astute than us as nerds, and I'm equally confused by the role you assigned to the hypothetical scientist's race. Would a black Ph.D. be more productive in that situation? An Irishman? A Jew? Arab?

There are a whole bunch of them that have her facility with healing now.

There are, true.

And, I don't see why just looking at the spot would take much power.

Not power, facility. Just as not everyone would've been able to see Graendal's Compulsion on that poor fellow, I forget his name.

And, unless I am not remembering correctly (and maybe I'm not) she didn't always have her hands on him, she was often just looking.

Why, you're correct:

Hiding the effort required, she took Logain's head in her hands roughly. Yes. It was better with physical contact, the impressions sharper.

Whether or not she'd need to do the same now is a different story. She certainly did it with Siuan and Leane too, though.

"Oh, shut up," Nynaeve broke in testily. One step, and she seized Siuan's head in both hands as if she intended to break the woman's neck.

[...]

Saidar filled her, and she channeled as she had with Logain, blending all of the Five Powers. She knew what she was looking for this time, that almost-not-there-at-all sense of something cut. Spirit and Fire to mend the break, and....

For one, they'd have to have Nynaeve's facility with Healing. For another, they'd probably need to lay their hands on the recipient.

That's just it, I don't think there's a spot. The place where they're connected to the True Source isn't an actual place; it's a metaphorical one.

EDIT: forgot to ask if you could quote the references you're thinking of. I have a feeling they don't exactly say what you remember them to.

There's actually nothing saying it's a corporeal spot on their bodies. Just a place, of sorts.

Anyone know if Amazon preorders (thinking about ordering through DM) typically arrive on the release date or a few days before/after?

It varies, is all I can say with certainty. I think I heard of them shipping early to get it to destination by release day, but then again last time there were posters here complaining that their copy was in the mail and everyone else already had theirs. With something like this, that has no shortage of supply come release day, I don't think the pre-ordering paradigm has any real use.

For what it's worth, I'm going to pick the audiobook the moment it's available, and wait for the ebook to read it rather than listen. With e-delivery, there won't be no surprises

And like I said before, I admit that it's speculation, but it's a stronger speculation than that it's a routine practice to stack individual weaver's shields on a target and call that one shield, especially when there are examples of multiple shields being on a single target and those shields being referred to in the plural.

My response is threefold. First, I haven't seen you acknowledge the speculative nature of your argument until now, so I apologize for pressing this as hard as I did (it was my intention to confront you with it, which is needless once you've conceded the point). Second, I don't think it's odd that they'd refer to stacked Shields as one if that's what they operate as (which is my position, based on the way Shielding worked from the first books), and third, I concluded a search on the word "Shields" in the first 11 books and didn't find a single instance were it's used to describe stacked Shielding. Where is it you saw it used that way?

On the contrary, it is central to the strength of this speculation. Channelers are sources of power for weave, they are also who weave that power into a stable configuration that produces the desired effects. When a channeler ties off a weave, they are tying off that weave's access to the One Power. Circles have multiple sources of power, if only one weaver. Tying off a weave that was created through a circle is no different than tying off a weave that was created by an individual. You tie off the source(s) of power feeding into the elemental threads, you don't pin down the form of the weave.

Conceded. Tying is done at the source. However, and this is key, the power of all involved channelers in a Ring is melded together. The one leading is the source for every weave, I think. This is hinted to, for example, by the fact that the light of saidar around female channelers extends to form a ring around everyone involved (encompassing the 'single channeler', if you will). The distinction here is this: when Rand Linked with Nynaeve, saidar flowed from her to him, but it was he who formed specific weaves (which are what has to be tied).

Actually, this was after the point where that Sedai had figured out the weave to tell if a man was holding the Power and whether, though not what, he was weaving.

They could, but would they? The Dragon Reborn is on their doorstep. Do you seriously believe they'd call someone who has facility with the new weave to check whether or not he's channeling before Shielding him? No, I think they'd want to be safe first, ask questions later. Their nervousness is shown even after he's Shielded and escorted by Warders, in the way quite a few sisters still embrace saidar upon seeing him.

And this is not at all the first time we hear about circles maintaining the shield on someone. It's all over the place. Two yellows were in a circle maintaining the shield on Leane. The Sedai in the coach were in a circle maintaining the shield on Egwene after she was captured. Logain was held in a linked circle in Caemlyn. You yourself mention when Elayne was held by a linked shield.

It's not the first time, since I indicated that Falion and Ispan were Linked when they caught Nynaeve by surprise. However, the Browns holding Leane the first time Egwene went to see her weren't Linked (the glow shone around Felaana, not around the both of them). In similar fashion, it was only Nagora Shielding her the next time it's mentioned. When was that other incident you refer to?

Likewise, the sisters carrying Egwene to the Tower weren't Linked. Katerine took care of Shielding Egwene on her own, and the way we know this is that we saw her do it. Egwene wasn't Shielded when she woke up.

Finally, I don't believe there was anyone around to tell us how Logain was Shielded in Camelyn, and what do you mean I mentioned myself that Elayne was held by a Ring? I did no such thing.

Keeping Rand contained was more important than contributing the the effort of defending against the Shaido and Perrin's gang until it became apparent that without the help of some of the shielding Sedai, they'd lose. If they could have contributed to the defense while still maintaining the shield on Rand, even weak contributions like small fireballs or something, they would have done that first. But we don't see the individual soft points getting weaker before they get tied off, so they clearly didn't even try to do both shield and defense first before it became apparent that they couldn't. Perhaps it was because they couldn't because they were in a link?

Or perhaps because they couldn't spare enough strength for it to be noticed? Remember, that they had to hold Rand is true, but they had no knowledge of a method for him to escape if the Shields were tied. It's simply Tower custom to maintain the Shields rather than tie them off (as we later learn). Nynaeve has let Moghedien escape in a similar fashion, because of her ignorance. So, they didn't realize that by tying it off they risked his getting away.

Elayne also doesn't try to break through the shield while she's in the cart. Maybe she could have broken through, but why take the risk? Birgitte was coming to the rescue, and it would surely have alerted the others, who might decide that a dead queen is better than a free one, if they can't have a captive one. But I tend to think not because it's also pretty clearly established that you can be much weaker than someone and still manage to hold a shield on them, as long as you can get it on them in the first place. It's that latter that requires you to be stronger.

Elayne said they took no risks in Shielding her, meaning she estimated she would not be able to break the Shield (anything else is contradictory). And while you can be weaker and still hold a Shield on someone, you can't be too weak. Nynaeve even worried that she might not be strong enough to Shield Logain, and if that's the case (her being level 18, he's probably around 24) then it's unlikely any one sister, even the strongest like Elderith, could've held Elayne (of course, nothing is certain with these strength estimations; they might not be on a linear line, for one, or the nature of the Power might make a difference at different points along the spectrum).

I said the leader of a circle can tie off the the contribution of a member of the circle in order to maintain the power of a linked weave, thereby allowing that member to leave the circle.

Yes, I thought to make that point for you, but I decided you'll do that better than I can. To the point, what you say is possible (I don't recall any piece of evidence clearly excluding it), but it's certainly never been shown to be true. It's speculation. Personally, I doubt it's possible, since that would be a game-changer. We'd see it used, I think, almost certainly.

The amount of Power that's used in a weave is independent of the weave itself. Sorelia can weave the weave that forms a gateway. That's how she taught Travelling to Cadsuane. She cannot, however, provide enough Power to make the gateway work. Tying off a weave, whether in a circle or individually, is about maintaining the flow of power into the weave, not maintaining the stability of the configuration of the weave itself.

That's certainly true. I don't think it has bearing on the issue at hand, however. We've only seen tying of a weave by the one who was maintaining it, never the tying of the source of the power required.

One of the reasons the gateway collapsed into such a large explosion is because the amount of Power required to form and sustain a working gateway is quite large, so when the weave collapsed into something else, the effects of that new weave are also quite impressive. That's also why Aiel learn to pick apart weaves using weak, simple weaves. So when they mess it up, which is inevitable, the effects of the new weave the original collapses into will be commensurate with the Power used to create the original weave.

That the Aiel do that is indeed suggestive, and I tend to agree with you. That's not 100%, but I still agree. Again, I don't see how that reflects on whether the one melding the flows can tie a give person's contribution then release them from the Ring.

there wouldn't be this stuff in the text about a circle of thirteen being sufficient to cut off any man from the Source, nor about a circle of six being sufficient to hold the shield of any man once cut off.

There isn't. It's said six AS can hold any man Shielded (but I don't think it specifically said "a Circle of six", certainly not exclusively), but cutting off someone from the Source isn't the same as holding them. For that, you most certainly need a Circle, which is why a Circle of 13 is this dangerous.

there wouldn't be two circles of thirteen shielding Rand in ToM, there'd be 26 sisters shielding him

Only, they wouldn't know whether he was holding the Source when he arrived, hence the Rings. Later, well, why make a change? BTW I think it's highly suggestive that we hear about there being Rings to begin with. We've never heard about it before when someone was Shielded. Why is that?

They could contribute their efforts to creating that dome shield or throwing fireballs while maintaining their shields on Rand.

Not necessarily. For example, Moiraine was very disappointed that Merean was able to face her as equals while holding three people with flows of Air. With all those WO attacking, they will need their full strengths, regardless of whether they were free to weave on their own.

The episode with Elayne doesn't suggest a linked shield either. She was stunned, and lost the Source, and any one of the BA could shield her at that point, and maintain the shield. Elayne's strong, but she's not as strong as Nynaeve, and she's not strong enough to break through a shield held by a single moderately strong sister on her own.

She wasn't stunned by the time they got to the gates. She contemplates channeling the moment the Shield is gone, but being blind she discards the possibility. However, according to 13th depository's Linda, Liandrin is level 9 (she's the strongest of the Blacks in her original group). Elayne, at level 15, is likely too strong for any one sister to hold (level 8 and below), although it should be mentioned that Falion and Ispan held Nynaeve after they caught her unawares (both level 8, and she's 18). They were Linked, however. Still, I accept that we can't rule out two of them Shielding her while the rest were dealing with Guybon's men.

Thanks Vard. Another situation to suggest what I'm saying is when Elayne gets carried away by the BA. They don't seem to be Linked (for the sheer amount of different weaves, as well as the fact that Asne used the BF-rod at the same time someone else was throwing fireballs), and yet Elayne is Shielded. This isn't absolute -- it's possible two of them Linked and Shielded Elayne while the others dealt with the army -- but it remains highly suggestive.

It was TSR.

I want it very clear that I'm not debating the issue. I have many reservations about what you're saying, but voicing them would only get in the way of the important bit - your adherence to DM's code of conduct. You did not say my argument ignored important distinctions. You inferred that I should go get some (cheap, are they?), because obviously I have to be incapable of appreciating the delicate ones you've made for rejecting your position. Hear me when I say this: in expressing yourself that way, you've crossed a line. In the future, don't, is all I'm saying (but to that, I will hold you, as I do everyone else).

Calling what I say inaccurate is just as much an offense, mine was just delivered with a bit more snark. Everything I've said in this exchange has been accurate.

Well, I can see that I'm not going to convince you of the merits of my argument (although you neatly ignored my evidence that you were wrong about how many AS were present, and therefore wrong about it being a single Circle), so I'm good with leaving it at that. However, in this thing you're mistaken. Attacking somebody's position is acceptable -- even encouraged -- around here. Attacking them, however, is strictly forbidden. Your remark about distinctions did not go to my arguments but to my ability to form one, and there you crossed the line. I recommend you reread the portion of our code of conduct dealing with bullying (and might I add, while directing this sort of language at me only got you a friendly reminder, receiving complaints from other members that you behaved in this fashion toward them would have earned you a warning).

Distinctions are useful. I hear they're on sale too, you should go buy some.

Easy there. Disagreeing with me is okay, but throwing insults at me isn't.

As to your distinction, again that's speculation without basis. All we've seen of Circles negates what you're suggesting -- tying off a weave is a substitute to holding it, not just powering it. And in a circle only the leader holds weaves. Besides, the only thing you're basing this on is that layered shields wouldn't allow an AS to feel that the totality is weakened when some layers vanish. Naturally, there's absolutely no evidence to suggest that as well.

As to Nynaeve and Logain:

Sheriam followed Romanda in, with Myrelle and Morvrin and Takima close behind, then Lelaine and Janya, Delana and Bharatine and Beonin, more, crowding in until they filled the room. Nynaeve could see others through the door that had no room to close.

That's ten names, then "more, crowding in until they filled the room". Without a doubt, more than 13.

BTW, you shouldn't forget that those AS suspected what Nynaeve did from the first. The reason they exploded with the Shield the moment Sheriam and Romanda agreed to do it 'just in case' is to hint at their itching to do so from the start, but being unable to without tipping off Nynaeve.

That's simply not accurate. In a Circle, each weave still has only one source, the one melding the flows. That one person uses other people in much the same way as one would use an angreal. They don't power weaves individually, and they can't tie off their part in them and walk off -- they don't have a part. What's more, Linking requires intent and permission. It's not enough to be on the verge, you have to consent to being added. If the sisters have planned on who would join which circle, well then they wouldn't have stumbled all over themselves to Shield Logain (there would be no need for Romanda to make order).

That's completely speculative; there's absolutely no reason that the breaking of porcelain plates would be similar to breaking a Shield, although I give you that the comparison has poetry. To the point, a Circle has only one person weaving, albeit with the combined strength of however many people are Linked with them. You can't tie off a portion of a weave; either it's all tied off, or it's not. And people in a Link cannot wander off but keep the weaves powered.

EDIT: this argument isn't really relevant, either way. When Nynaeve Healed Logain, we have this:

"I think the least we can do is shield him until we are absolutely certain," Sheriam suggested. Romanda nodded, and a shield sprang into being strong enough to hold a giant as the glow of saidar surrounded nearly every woman in the room. Romanda restored a little order by briskly naming six to maintain a lesser but adequate shield.

So you see, there were far too many women in the room for the initial Shield to have been woven by a Circle even if the text didn't suggest otherwise, and yet Nynaeve is certain it would've "held a giant". Layering Shields works.

I don't know, except that it would be easier to Shield him that way if he already was holding saidin. And, I still believe the increased focus would result in a stronger Shield, but whatever. RJ wasn't ready to use that element of plot yet in LoC, probably.

Huh, I always interpreted the shielding as 6 Aes sedai linked to form the shield. Am I incorrect? Is the shielding at the end of LoC really 6 individual shields woven together?

Definitely six separate Shields. They've tied them off at different times, each doing so only when her abilities were deemed necessary to fend of the Shaido. Otherwise there couldn't have been both hard and soft dots there at the same time.

Doubt it, RJ was really sensitive about not even showing Harriet his work until after he had some 8 drafts done, so I'd expect her to be hesitant about publishing them (and god knows she doesn't need the money).

However, Brandon said he'd be open to specifying which scenes were predominantly his and which RJ's, after AMoL was out (of course, he would probably need Harriet's approval for that, also).

I didn't figure it out, too. Although in retrospect, the scene in Altara (TPoD) was a dead giveaway;

"I am well aware how long you have channeled," he said in an icy, almost contemptuous voice, "but surely even you can feel it.

Have we seen a channeler use the Mirror of Mists/Illusion to take another characters face, that is so accurate such that even people who knew the original (copied) person would be fooled?

Elayne took on Nynaeve's appearance, and Nynaeve herself thought it was good enough to freak out over the rest of Elayne's costume...

Does balefire destroy a person's soul so that it can never be reborn again?

No. RJ was clear on this point -- a BFed person can still be reborn.

This question however bring me to a question of my own. If a channeler as weak as Mogase managed to link with one much more powerful and that other channeler drew power to the max would she then risk burning out the weaker channeler or would the stronger member of the link act as a buffer to protect the weaker one?

A Circle is its own buffer -- you cannot make someone draw too deeply on the Source. In fact, you can't make them draw as deeply as they would otherwise be able to safely.

Personally, no, I don't think there's anything magical about the number 13. However, and this is a big however, these strength rankings are fan-made, and even then they only talk of 'levels'. There's absolutely nothing to suggest that the difference between levels 6-7 is the same as between 1-2 or 20-21. Also, Linking isn't a simple summation of strengths. You actually sacrifice strength when you Link, but gain greater focus (and some other benefits, such as larger Gateways, for whatever reason).

How much more? Back in TFoH, Rahvin thought Graendal and Lanfear would Link if threatened, and implied that combined, their power would rival his or Sammael's. Therefore Rand cannot be matched to more than four Nynaeves, if you will. However, the amounts of saidin Rand channeled dwarfed saidar, so how much sturdier would it have to be, if we're to accept your theory?

As I said before, Rand was unfamiliar with saidar. By his own account, the weave looked nothing like what he thought it would. Combine his awkwardness with the amounts of saidin the conduit had to deal with (and the resulting pressure), and I think Luckers as a point.

There could've been many stronger women, true, but not that much stronger (take a look at the 13th Depository's saidar strength ranking). Also, by Verin's account even Siuan, Moiraine and Elaida are strong enough for the CK. If that's the case, Nynaeve should be well above the threshold.

seal the boar

This is a very disturbing picture or might it be a sword form?

I'm thinking more along the lines of "easing the badger"...