[Basic] I <3 the 90's Mafia: Music Edition - TOWN WINS!

[Lizabeth]

 

Okay, Part 2.

 

I think Sili is scum. If this were Day I'd be leading off with a vote on him, but it's not so it's going to have to wait.

 

My reads this game have sucked. It's depressing that both games I've played at DM so far I tried to lynch the town watcher on D1 in Mafia Karts (who ironically watched the town vig kill me the town doc on N1) and in this game all my scum reads have flipped town and my town reads (except for BFG who was obvious by D3, so I can't even take credit for that) flipped scum.

 

That's not what made me go back to Sili though.

 

I'll try to summarize what really bothered me in a few points because otherwise I'll be late for work. But I'll copy and paste my notes from my readthrough last night so people can read for themselves to see if what I'm saying is valid.

 

I suspected him early on D1 because of the way he was responding to pushes in the thread so early, but then his emotional reactions started to seem genuine (if irrational - but I had seen that from him in Mafia Karts) and Seph seriously looked like the more scummy between the two of them in the fight they had early D1. On my read through of D2, he was looking good to me because he seemed to be genuinely trying NOT to do the hissy fit thing with people and take his time in reading them. But then things started to turn around on D3.

 

On d3, he started off attacking lenlo. Which was fine, because I didn't like Lenlo's responses. But then I noticed that his reactions started taking on a certain flavour, and that continued into d4 (you'll see it in my iso) wait, you leave out my level-headed case work on lenlo simplifying it to a hissy fit?

 

1) He uses choice language to describe anyone who is questioning his conclusions that seems designed to undermine the person and distract from their actual thoughts.

- He calls lenlo "inflammatory" and uses that as an excuse to not engage with him (I didn't see lenlo do anythng inflammatory in the exchange on D3, even though I had issues with the content of lenlo's responses at the time) i actually give it a little more detail later. i said in more less these exact terms - it is tiresome to argue with someone who wants to prove you wrong instead of proving that they are a villager. and that's basically what i meant earlier when i said inflammatory i think because i was on a phone. and let's not pretend the tdomes with lenlo were tiresome for everyone. i was completely right not to engage in one. this is not equivalent to shutting lenlo down since he could still respond and people could still hear him out.

 

- he responds to my comment about my read on clov by saying "are you always this verbose"? and claiming my 3 short paragaraph post was tl/dr. And as I've pointed out: he's not new to me. Even if he claims he doesn't remember me from mafia karts (which I find hard to believe, because I was pretty much my usual postwhorey self in that game), he's seen me post in this game. So why does he feel the need to dismiss my post about why I can never fully trust Clov as too verbose to read? i play with lots of people. sorry if i don't know how half of them play? I wasn't dismissing it as too verbose to read and I said as much at the time and I don't see why you wouldn't have read that. Is it that  you don't believe me? I read your post several times. I was noting that it was verbose compared to the actual content. that sometimes matters.

- He questions Lily's competence as a cop while going back and forth on whether or not her claim should be trusted (that will be clear in the iso that I'm about to post). well, yeah, if you are a cop you should n ever ever ever imply multiple town leans are actually peeks because that will confuse town if you get nkd. that's just basic stuff here. nor is it really that difficult to avoid calling people for sure town. i'm pretty sure i've done that in this game and i have like 850 posts.

 

2) He tries to discourage people from exploring certain angles of inquiry.

- On D3, when I suggested that we actually take the 2 + days we'd been alotted to explore whether Lenlo was actually scum or not, Sili attacks me and starts trying to shade my intent as scummy. i have honestly absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

- After Lenny's flip, when hallia and BFG start analyzing wagons and doing process of elimination, he immediately starts to claim that we don't know enough to do that process, and when I point out that Kat is "next to impossible" as Lenny's partner, he starts shading me as scummy for pointing that out and gets into a senseless argument with me about D1 vs. D2 - which is senseless because why the hell should I or anybody be basing our read on Kat solely based on D1 when we had information from d2 and d3? are you exagerating my words intentionally? i think i merely said i couldn't townread kat for a certain post that i highlighted, and said some of their logic was off. i didn't discourage the actual practice and i did find myself agreeing with their conclusion in the end. i said the certainly impossible thing sounded like tmi lol. it wasn't about day 1 but what you described about day 2, and i've said this many many times by now but i think you refuse to listen.

- after Lily's claim and vote on Clov, he quickly jumps on (as if nervous to jump on too late) then quickly jumps off and starts questioning the validity of Kat's claim. He keeps "waffling" back and forth, questioning her competence and truthfulness, as I pointed out before, and never manages to get back on the vote before the hammer - which eh then claims is because he was too busy reading and he's really disappointed that his vote didn't count. i think you leave out the fact that i first back lily against clov and say to the thread i'd like to do due diligence if possible. i do the due-diligence which entertains the thought lily was lying. i never get to the end of my due-diligence so no one can say where i would have ended up but at the time i was leaning like 60/40 voting clov in a vacuum. hell i even point out a logical fallacy of clov's at a critical moment. What wolf who is trying to spare a comrade actually does that? But I don't know, maybe if I was drunk and had half a brain I would.

 

I said a couiple times i just like pushing buttons. *shrug*

 

I need to finisht there because I'm running late. But I'll post the iso next and people can judge for themselves.

 

Did you purposely make this post difficult for me to read through for your answers?

 

I'll try to respond as best as I can.

 

To the post in red:" - On D3, when I suggested that we actually take the 2 + days we'd been alotted to explore whether Lenlo was actually scum or not, Sili attacks me and starts trying to shade my intent as scummy. i have honestly absolutely no idea what you are talking about."

 

You're saying that you don't remember calling me scummy when I was encouraging you to just give Lenlo the post you said you had that damned him and that we should take our time in figuring out lenlo's alignment to avoid another mislynch? Meanwhile you're defending yourself by saying you were doing due dilligence with the Clov/Lily situation, but when I do it it's scummy.

 

"On d3, he started off attacking lenlo. Which was fine, because I didn't like Lenlo's responses. But then I noticed that his reactions started taking on a certain flavour, and that continued into d4 (you'll see it in my iso) wait, you leave out my level-headed case work on lenlo simplifying it to a hissy fit?"

 

No. I was actually supporting you in your case on Lenlo, which you seem to conveniently forget. I'm calling it a hissy fit when he was telling you to produce the quote you kept saying you had on him and you were saying you weren't going to talk to him and getting upset that he kept pressing you on it.

 

"1) He uses choice language to describe anyone who is questioning his conclusions that seems designed to undermine the person and distract from their actual thoughts.

- He calls lenlo "inflammatory" and uses that as an excuse to not engage with him (I didn't see lenlo do anythng inflammatory in the exchange on D3, even though I had issues with the content of lenlo's responses at the time) i actually give it a little more detail later. i said in more less these exact terms - it is tiresome to argue with someone who wants to prove you wrong instead of proving that they are a villager. and that's basically what i meant earlier when i said inflammatory i think because i was on a phone. and let's not pretend the tdomes with lenlo were tiresome for everyone. i was completely right not to engage in one. this is not equivalent to shutting lenlo down since he could still respond and people could still hear him out."

 

You are extremely hypocritical when it comes to how you describe other people's intentions in arguing with you when you do the exact same thing you accuse others of yourself. I know you later said that you were on a phone and that's why you couldn't produce the quote. But you didn't say that until later. You just refused to talk to him and got on my case for saying that I thought we should take our time and explore him before rushing to cement his fate.

 

 

"- he responds to my comment about my read on clov by saying "are you always this verbose"? and claiming my 3 short paragaraph post was tl/dr. And as I've pointed out: he's not new to me. Even if he claims he doesn't remember me from mafia karts (which I find hard to believe, because I was pretty much my usual postwhorey self in that game), he's seen me post in this game. So why does he feel the need to dismiss my post about why I can never fully trust Clov as too verbose to read? i play with lots of people. sorry if i don't know how half of them play? I wasn't dismissing it as too verbose to read and I said as much at the time and I don't see why you wouldn't have read that. Is it that  you don't believe me? I read your post several times. I was noting that it was verbose compared to the actual content. that sometimes matters."

You literally said: TL;DR. And then you proceeded to twist what I was saying about my read on clov, saying that I was saying that he was acting funny this game and that's why I was reading him as more likely town, where what I was saying is that he was acting "funny" for what I expected from him in the previous two games where he was actually scum and I didn't feel as comfortable about my town read on him in THOSE games.

 

"- He questions Lily's competence as a cop while going back and forth on whether or not her claim should be trusted (that will be clear in the iso that I'm about to post). well, yeah, if you are a cop you should n ever ever ever imply multiple town leans are actually peeks because that will confuse town if you get nkd. that's just basic stuff here. nor is it really that difficult to avoid calling people for sure town. i'm pretty sure i've done that in this game and i have like 850 posts.:

 

I'm just pointing out that it's been a pattern with you this game. And when did she imply that multiple town leans were peeks?

 

"- After Lenny's flip, when hallia and BFG start analyzing wagons and doing process of elimination, he immediately starts to claim that we don't know enough to do that process, and when I point out that Kat is "next to impossible" as Lenny's partner, he starts shading me as scummy for pointing that out and gets into a senseless argument with me about D1 vs. D2 - which is senseless because why the hell should I or anybody be basing our read on Kat solely based on D1 when we had information from d2 and d3? are you exagerating my words intentionally? i think i merely said i couldn't townread kat for a certain post that i highlighted, and said some of their logic was off. i didn't discourage the actual practice and i did find myself agreeing with their conclusion in the end. i said the certainly impossible thing sounded like tmi lol. it wasn't about day 1 but what you described about day 2, and i've said this many many times by now but i think you refuse to listen."

 

No. That's not simply what you said. You said that I looked scummy to you for coming to the conclusion that Kat was next to impossible as Lenny's partner. I didn't say anything (until today) about you being scummy for thinking that based on D1. You just kept coming back to d1 and ignoring the fact that I was basing my conclusions on D2.

 

"

- after Lily's claim and vote on Clov, he quickly jumps on (as if nervous to jump on too late) then quickly jumps off and starts questioning the validity of Kat's claim. He keeps "waffling" back and forth, questioning her competence and truthfulness, as I pointed out before, and never manages to get back on the vote before the hammer - which eh then claims is because he was too busy reading and he's really disappointed that his vote didn't count. i think you leave out the fact that i first back lily against clov and say to the thread i'd like to do due diligence if possible. i do the due-diligence which entertains the thought lily was lying. i never get to the end of my due-diligence so no one can say where i would have ended up but at the time i was leaning like 60/40 voting clov in a vacuum. hell i even point out a logical fallacy of clov's at a critical moment. What wolf who is trying to spare a comrade actually does that? But I don't know, maybe if I was drunk and had half a brain I would.

 

I said a couiple times i just like pushing buttons. *shrug*"

 

Again. You literally argued with me for a ridiculous amount of time that kat could be wolves with lenny because wolves bus their partners hard all the time. And now you're saying that you couldn't possibly be wolves with Chris because it would be crazy for you to bus your partner?

[Lizabeth]

Lily :(

 

We expected it.

 

Mmm... my scummiest is Lenlo. All the raisins mentioned.

 

[v]Lenlo[/v]

 

 

I'll iso Alanna soon as I can.

 

Why are you voting Lenlo before you iso Alanna?

[Lizabeth]

Hallia is only one vote and she doesn't argue it a lot. We're all watching. We don't know who the last two wolves are yet.

 

On Liz, I have a hard time imagining a wolf trying that hard to get me lynched or appear like they want to get me lynched, but I don't know her well enough to form any sort of hard conclusions. What I do know is that she absconded for about a day and a half, and perhaps lurked for a while.

Wow.

 

Sorry, when did I abscond for a day and a half?

[Sili Quirrels]

 

Hallia is only one vote and she doesn't argue it a lot. We're all watching. We don't know who the last two wolves are yet.

 

On Liz, I have a hard time imagining a wolf trying that hard to get me lynched or appear like they want to get me lynched, but I don't know her well enough to form any sort of hard conclusions. What I do know is that she absconded for about a day and a half, and perhaps lurked for a while.

Wow.

 

Sorry, when did I abscond for a day and a half?

 

day 4. I didn't notice you post? Is this untrue? Please quote? You were also gone part of the night.

[Sili Quirrels]

You made your wot needlessly difficult to respond to yo.

[Lizabeth]

Liz, can you tell me where to find the last game you played with lenbot where you were scum and she was town

 

Here http://personalitycafe.com/search.php?searchid=42267594

 

Go do your "due diligence"

[Lizabeth]

Maybe not a lot of time.

 

Keeps going back to it though.

And why would I do that, Sili?

[Lizabeth]

 

 

I still don't feel better about Lenlo than I did before, though.  His defense against Sili basically boils down to the fact that Lenlo didn't say anybody was scummy, verbatim.  He's not wrong...but I don't see why Sili SHOULDN'T have read into Lenlo's post that way.  Saying somebody 'seems off' has a certain connotation to it.  It's no different than saying somebody 'sounds good'.  

 

So again, if Lenlo honestly WASN'T trying to imply a...lack of towniness?... he made that catch up post to contribute nothing.

 

And the entire time he was going back and forth with Sili over the same points, he still didn't really give any opinions that MATTER.  Even when he was saying Sili seemed like an over-committed wolf, Lenlo still treated him like he knew Sili was town.

 

 

 

Like, im trying to understand where your coming from and your reasons. But all your doing is hardlining against me and refusing me at almost every turn. Its not the attitude id expect of someone trying to solve the game, but rather someone who had over committed to a wolf read and knows theres no backing out now. Rather then discussing it and your other reads with me your shutting it down and saying "piss off wolf".

 

Cmon dude. Not talking aint gonna resolve/solve anything.

 

 

 

Like, im trying to understand where your coming from and your reasons. But all your doing is hardlining against me and refusing me at almost every turn. Its not the attitude id expect of someone trying to solve the game, but rather someone who had over committed to a wolf read and knows theres no backing out now. Rather then discussing it and your other reads with me your shutting it down and saying "piss off wolf".

 

Cmon dude. Not talking aint gonna resolve/solve anything.

I don't want to be stuck here for another 3 hours trying to communicate with a wolf when the wolf is intent on not understanding anything.

 

Quit it with the narrative. Im trying to move away from our argument because we both know the other wont budge. Fine.

 

So help me figure out everyone else. If im really a wolf, talking about other people will help you ferret them out. If im town it will give you more to go on in the future. Your not getting a lynch with just you so until other people weigh in and add something new, talk about other reads.

 

 

How do you make the red statement and the blue statements to/about the same person?

 

You saw what I saw

 

I think Sili has been weirdly defensive and self-contradictory this game too but...that seems to be Sili. I don't know Lenlo.

 

first time liz communicates with clov and since i just brought it up i figured i should quote the first time it happens.

 

incidentally i am starting to think bfg was right. don't know why clov would go after a teammate like this.

 

Liz mentioning me also brings to mind that she keeps asking about the sk and no one answers and so wouldn't the natural course of action to be explain why you're asking?

 

Meh.

 

It would be the natural course if anyone actually asked me.

 

Why didn't you ask me?

[Lizabeth]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ok but i want quotes up to the point where you said this not AFTER.  i want to see where youre coming from.

 

The longer you take to do it kinda makes it look a little worse tho imo.

 

You're not getting them. Let me try to explain this again, since you don't seem to be understanding me. I'm OVERWHELMED by the sheer amount of posting that's going on this game. It's the worst I've played in so far on DM. You couldn't pay me to slog through all that again and get quotes for you. I will do better later on when there is less posting or specific things catch my eye. For now, I have a couple of GUT reads. 

 

If you confuse being overwhelmed with being scummy, then vote me.

 

 

Gotta treat everyone the same Lily.

 

You said you trust her I want to know why.

 

 

Did I? I thought I said she feels town to me. I don't trust any of you yet.

 

 

Ya ok.

 

Why are you liking, reading her Town

 

 

You keep asking, like you expect my answer to change. Gut feeling.

 

 

 

I was actually reading Zander as town up until seeing this exchange....this reminds me of what he did to me in Mafia Karts :(

 

 

1. What did you see that made you think that?  Based on conversations we've had about Zander in the past, I would have expected the opposite from you.

 sili: interesting. i don't remember clov pushing liz for this.

 

2.I saw your read on Lenore.  I don't really have any issue with it, but was there something that made you change your mind on her?  The way you phrased it kind of makes me think you're not there with her anymore?

 

3. Besides them, do you have reads on anybody else yet?

 

 

 

 

 

Joking.

 

Lenlo was a slimmy player last game. He's just as slimy this game. His reactions have a certain steadfastness that are town however.

Oh please your just crap at reading me. Don't you blame this on me. People correctly read me last game and are correctly doing so this game. You just don't like that I think other things are important that you don't and vice versa.

 

So you think Sili is town?

 

 

4, I don't think this means anything much for your alignment, but I just wanted to say, you're basically a saint

 

1. Ummm....I already explained this to Zander. Zander asking the same question over and over again without progression is what reminded me of scum!Zander. What I've heard/seen of town!Zander is that he's stubborn, but repeatedly asking things like "explain in detail this gut read that you have on player x" over and over again to the same response "it's a gut read! what else do you want me to say!" reminded me of what he did to me in Mafia Karts. sili: i read the quote chain, and only saw lil say gutread once. ill double check this and confirm in a moment. but if that's true this seems like a misrep of zander because lil said gut read once, after zander asked lil a couple times. so if we're being intellectually honest it's not equivalent with what liz describes here as zander's scum game.

 

2. I didn't change my mind on Lenore. I said I thought she and Zander's (early) argument looked like town vs. town to me based on how I've seen her play town in the past.

 

3. Yes

 

4. Awwwww

 

whoops. here is something more significant.

 

i already know i'm quoting it so i haven't read it yet. one sec.

 

could interpret (4) a couple ways i think so i'm not going to comment on it. i could easily be reading too much into it already.

 

the rest of what i had to say can be found in blue in the quote chain.

 

i got to check something on lil right now.

 

 

 

Okay, so I was wrong about the back and forth between lil and zander, but Zander said this:

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'll be honest here. I may have to drop out due to the sheer volume of posting. I don't want to, so I'm going to try to hang in and see what happens. For now, I don't really have any strong reads, but I'm liking BFG a bit. 

 

What about BFG do you like?

 

 

Give me some time on this. Right now, I'm forming gut reads. BFG and Laine are feeling town. Later on, I might have something more concrete for you. 

 

 

Please do this.

 

 

I will as the game progresses. Right now, I'm having trouble processing all the data. You guys post a LOT and lot of you post long posts. It's hard to weed through. Like I said, give me some time, and I'll do better. 

 

 

 

Ok but i want quotes up to the point where you said this not AFTER.  i want to see where youre coming from.

 

The longer you take to do it kinda makes it look a little worse tho imo.

 

-so i don't feel too bad.

 

in light of zander saying this his position makes a lot more sense for an impartial observer.

 

the quote chain liz responds to later is on a different track i suspect. there's no gaurantee liz saw the entire back and forth and so it might be irrelevant.

 

 

'it might be irrelevant' - i mean i can't say for sure whether liz was intentionally misrepping zander.

wtf are you even talking about here?

 

How did I "misrep" zander?

[Lizabeth]

 

 

 

 

 

Do You guys really think his town comment was a TMI?

in a single sentence he went from a slight town read to a strong town read. tmi if you're town.

I took it as joking.

 

joking about what?

 

 

 

It was very much not a joke and do not give him that out Hally.  He said he forgot to put you on his list and he added you in there with a snap post.  That's a spur of the moment mistake.

What was this about? Who was he? you guys didn't quote and I'm too tired to parse through the thread to find it.

 

 

From what I recall these sorts of posts are a pattern for Liz. I remember that she says a lot that she needs to do something, or is unwilling to read much further. Liz has a tendency to not put in the effort, or not look like she's putting in the effort, and yet sometimes she over-explains herself when she doesn't have a strong incentive to do so.

 

Doesn't fit.

 

Wow.

 

So you're just going to ignore everything I've already explained to try to fit things into your need to paint me as scum.

 

Again, if you hadn't played with me before, if you hadn't made the comment "oh, i guess liz actually plays strategically" about me in the last game, if I hadn't clearly outlined what my typical approach is to finding scum with a very clear example, and if I weren't assuming that you actually have read all those posts...

 

Yeah. But go on sili. Let's keep the shade coming.

[Lizabeth]

Even when Liz did her wot series on me, didn't she say at the end there was more to do and that she'd get to it later?

 

That's what I mean. So far I'm seeing that happen in her iso with some passing regularity. I'll keep track of it from now on.

Is the day over yet?

 

Nope.

 

And you're welcome

[Lizabeth]

 

 

Is a better way to phrase it that Liz leaves things half finished? - as opposed to saying she doesn't put in the effort?

 

Yes, I think so.

Is it a better way to phrase it that you are trying to shade me again with language?

 

You know how I play Sili, so stop acting like you're ignorant.

 

What was it you said in Mario Karts after I flipped town doctor after you were tinfoiling me?

 

Something to the effect of "Oh. I  guess Liz plays strategically after alll"

 

When people try to pretend that they don't know something they should...

 

And no, that's not me shading you. That's me calling you out.

 

I'm catching up now. See you in a bit!

 

just trying to portray accurately what's happening. others are free to agree or disagree, or contribute in their own ways when i quote the posts.

 

i notice even you aren't disagreeing exactly. whatever then.

 

i really don't remember much about the mario kart game. believe that or don't. i really don't care waht you think, but there's no reason i wouldn't lie about that. if you think more strategically i don't think that really helps you.

 

 

Okay, so let me remind you.

 

In Mario Karts, I thought Calder was scum. He wasn't he was the town watcher. No one else wanted to vote for him.

 

I thought Seph was town. Calder and Clov were voting for Seph and the other votes were scattered somewhere else with no clear wagons.

 

I decided to test Chris and Calder's theory (that Seph was scum by voting for seph and seeing how the wagons formed, with some suspicion that one or both of Chris and Calder could be scum.

 

The wagons formed on Seph and Penny/celeste, who were both town. Seph wound up dying.

 

You accused me of being scummy for it although  explained to you my rationale for why I did  I died and flipped town doc and you were like "oh, my bad...I guess Liz DOES think strategically after all"

 

And as I've already explained ad nauseum, part of the way I do that is to not lay all my cards on the table at once.

 

And as I've also explained ad nauseum, I wasn't able to use that strategy very effectively this game (in terms of following up with threads) for reasons I've described too many times for me to be arsed to do it again. If you haven't read it, then you're not really doing your due diligence.

[Sili Quirrels]

Did you purposely make this post difficult for me to read through for your answers?

no but it was the easiest way to respond and i highlighted them so it wasn't that hard for you.

 

I'll try to respond as best as I can.

 

To the post in red:" - On D3, when I suggested that we actually take the 2 + days we'd been alotted to explore whether Lenlo was actually scum or not, Sili attacks me and starts trying to shade my intent as scummy. i have honestly absolutely no idea what you are talking about."

 

You're saying that you don't remember calling me scummy when I was encouraging you to just give Lenlo the post you said you had that damned him and that we should take our time in figuring out lenlo's alignment to avoid another mislynch? Meanwhile you're defending yourself by saying you were doing due dilligence with the Clov/Lily situation, but when I do it it's scummy.

 

I don't recall attacking you for your attempt at taking two days to analyze stuff, but i do recall i said that you seemed like you were playing both sides - as in as though we were v/v and you were a wolf praying on both sides. And that's actually a little different because it's not about analyzing but rather how you went about it. pinged me. nevertheless i didn't object to you taking time to think.

"On d3, he started off attacking lenlo. Which was fine, because I didn't like Lenlo's responses. But then I noticed that his reactions started taking on a certain flavour, and that continued into d4 (you'll see it in my iso) wait, you leave out my level-headed case work on lenlo simplifying it to a hissy fit?"

 

No. I was actually supporting you in your case on Lenlo, which you seem to conveniently forget. I'm calling it a hissy fit when he was telling you to produce the quote you kept saying you had on him and you were saying you weren't going to talk to him and getting upset that he kept pressing you on it.

 

First of all, you are simplifying the entire day to a hissy fit, and clearly not all of it was such, so you're cherry-picking.

 

But also, didn't the wolf called clov shade me for the same thing you are? I said i was on the phone SEVERAL TIMES. it wasn't a hissy fit at all.

 

"1) He uses choice language to describe anyone who is questioning his conclusions that seems designed to undermine the person and distract from their actual thoughts.

- He calls lenlo "inflammatory" and uses that as an excuse to not engage with him (I didn't see lenlo do anythng inflammatory in the exchange on D3, even though I had issues with the content of lenlo's responses at the time) i actually give it a little more detail later. i said in more less these exact terms - it is tiresome to argue with someone who wants to prove you wrong instead of proving that they are a villager. and that's basically what i meant earlier when i said inflammatory i think because i was on a phone. and let's not pretend the tdomes with lenlo were tiresome for everyone. i was completely right not to engage in one. this is not equivalent to shutting lenlo down since he could still respond and people could still hear him out."

 

You are extremely hypocritical when it comes to how you describe other people's intentions in arguing with you when you do the exact same thing you accuse others of yourself. I know you later said that you were on a phone and that's why you couldn't produce the quote. But you didn't say that until later. You just refused to talk to him and got on my case for saying that I thought we should take our time and explore him before rushing to cement his fate.

 

actually i'm not a hypocrite here.

i try to prove that i am a villager all the time by --- villaging. giving content etc. i even reference things that i think make me look good when it's appropriate. when i'm defending myself i do not just attack their logic. i say i am town because of this and this, and you are also wrong. so i'm not really a hypocrite.

 

you are describing it like me chastizing lenlo and you happened side by side but it didn't? anyway, i was on the phone, and when i got back i explained everything.

 

"- he responds to my comment about my read on clov by saying "are you always this verbose"? and claiming my 3 short paragaraph post was tl/dr. And as I've pointed out: he's not new to me. Even if he claims he doesn't remember me from mafia karts (which I find hard to believe, because I was pretty much my usual postwhorey self in that game), he's seen me post in this game. So why does he feel the need to dismiss my post about why I can never fully trust Clov as too verbose to read? i play with lots of people. sorry if i don't know how half of them play? I wasn't dismissing it as too verbose to read and I said as much at the time and I don't see why you wouldn't have read that. Is it that  you don't believe me? I read your post several times. I was noting that it was verbose compared to the actual content. that sometimes matters."

You literally said: TL;DR. And then you proceeded to twist what I was saying about my read on clov, saying that I was saying that he was acting funny this game and that's why I was reading him as more likely town, where what I was saying is that he was acting "funny" for what I expected from him in the previous two games where he was actually scum and I didn't feel as comfortable about my town read on him in THOSE games.

 

"- He questions Lily's competence as a cop while going back and forth on whether or not her claim should be trusted (that will be clear in the iso that I'm about to post). well, yeah, if you are a cop you should n ever ever ever imply multiple town leans are actually peeks because that will confuse town if you get nkd. that's just basic stuff here. nor is it really that difficult to avoid calling people for sure town. i'm pretty sure i've done that in this game and i have like 850 posts.:

 

I'm just pointing out that it's been a pattern with you this game. And when did she imply that multiple town leans were peeks?

 

"- After Lenny's flip, when hallia and BFG start analyzing wagons and doing process of elimination, he immediately starts to claim that we don't know enough to do that process, and when I point out that Kat is "next to impossible" as Lenny's partner, he starts shading me as scummy for pointing that out and gets into a senseless argument with me about D1 vs. D2 - which is senseless because why the hell should I or anybody be basing our read on Kat solely based on D1 when we had information from d2 and d3? are you exagerating my words intentionally? i think i merely said i couldn't townread kat for a certain post that i highlighted, and said some of their logic was off. i didn't discourage the actual practice and i did find myself agreeing with their conclusion in the end. i said the certainly impossible thing sounded like tmi lol. it wasn't about day 1 but what you described about day 2, and i've said this many many times by now but i think you refuse to listen."

 

No. That's not simply what you said. You said that I looked scummy to you for coming to the conclusion that Kat was next to impossible as Lenny's partner. I didn't say anything (until today) about you being scummy for thinking that based on D1. You just kept coming back to d1 and ignoring the fact that I was basing my conclusions on D2.

 

 

i said you looked scummy for how you phrased it, to be exact. i said nothing of the sort to bfg for a reason - because i didn't take issue with how bfg phrased it. this is really obvious stuff here. You're just cherry-picking, once again.

 

i already talked about this at length. you were in the wrong and i was in the right, and you were the one confused, not me.

"

- after Lily's claim and vote on Clov, he quickly jumps on (as if nervous to jump on too late) then quickly jumps off and starts questioning the validity of Kat's claim. He keeps "waffling" back and forth, questioning her competence and truthfulness, as I pointed out before, and never manages to get back on the vote before the hammer - which eh then claims is because he was too busy reading and he's really disappointed that his vote didn't count. i think you leave out the fact that i first back lily against clov and say to the thread i'd like to do due diligence if possible. i do the due-diligence which entertains the thought lily was lying. i never get to the end of my due-diligence so no one can say where i would have ended up but at the time i was leaning like 60/40 voting clov in a vacuum. hell i even point out a logical fallacy of clov's at a critical moment. What wolf who is trying to spare a comrade actually does that? But I don't know, maybe if I was drunk and had half a brain I would.

 

I said a couiple times i just like pushing buttons. *shrug*"

 

Again. You literally argued with me for a ridiculous amount of time that kat could be wolves with lenny because wolves bus their partners hard all the time. And now you're saying that you couldn't possibly be wolves with Chris because it would be crazy for you to bus your partner?

 

if you had the same nuance in your arguments for why kat was town, i probably wouldn't have called how your conclusion possible tmi.

in bold again, but after the blue so it's easier ya.

[Lizabeth]

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not. Just stating facts

Sure.

 

Except you asked to be prodded, and so you have no business complaining or using negative words to describe my actions.

 

I mean... I didnt and I do? Opinions?

 

This is just arguing though so, well have to agree to disagree. 

 

Im not sure on Besie as a wolf lead, because Clov seemed pretty intent on pushing her if I remember right. Liz would be a better bet between those two. And Laine still bugs me.

 

I'm right. If you don't want to have the discussion, then what happens is I assume I'm right and wherever I see you say or imply otherwise I tell you to shutup.

 

Let me state my thoughts clearly. You criticized me for my reasoning and I defended myself, so I will not let you complain freely about how I nagged you when I was only defending my right to a valid opinion and now you moan and complain whenever someone asks you to contribute to the game like a damn player.

 

Stop putting this on me.

 

Weren't you the one saying to him the other day that you weren't going to engage him in conversation because he's a wolf?

 

You're going to have to elaborate if you want me to respond in an effective way.

 

Possible you don't want me to, and that's fine, but I figure I should let you have the opportunity to start acting like a villager.

 

You're doing it again. I'm just going to keep pointing it out from now on when you do it.

 

In answer to your question, are you not remembering stating at the start of D3 that you were not going to talk to Lenlo because he was a wolf and being "inflammatory"? You basically just agreed with me that you did that. You said it was because you didn't want to toxify the thread. Which is fine as an explanation, but don't pretend you don't remember saying it.

[Sili Quirrels]

 

 

 

I still don't feel better about Lenlo than I did before, though.  His defense against Sili basically boils down to the fact that Lenlo didn't say anybody was scummy, verbatim.  He's not wrong...but I don't see why Sili SHOULDN'T have read into Lenlo's post that way.  Saying somebody 'seems off' has a certain connotation to it.  It's no different than saying somebody 'sounds good'.  

 

So again, if Lenlo honestly WASN'T trying to imply a...lack of towniness?... he made that catch up post to contribute nothing.

 

And the entire time he was going back and forth with Sili over the same points, he still didn't really give any opinions that MATTER.  Even when he was saying Sili seemed like an over-committed wolf, Lenlo still treated him like he knew Sili was town.

 

 

 

Like, im trying to understand where your coming from and your reasons. But all your doing is hardlining against me and refusing me at almost every turn. Its not the attitude id expect of someone trying to solve the game, but rather someone who had over committed to a wolf read and knows theres no backing out now. Rather then discussing it and your other reads with me your shutting it down and saying "piss off wolf".

 

Cmon dude. Not talking aint gonna resolve/solve anything.

 

 

 

Like, im trying to understand where your coming from and your reasons. But all your doing is hardlining against me and refusing me at almost every turn. Its not the attitude id expect of someone trying to solve the game, but rather someone who had over committed to a wolf read and knows theres no backing out now. Rather then discussing it and your other reads with me your shutting it down and saying "piss off wolf".

 

Cmon dude. Not talking aint gonna resolve/solve anything.

I don't want to be stuck here for another 3 hours trying to communicate with a wolf when the wolf is intent on not understanding anything.

 

Quit it with the narrative. Im trying to move away from our argument because we both know the other wont budge. Fine.

 

So help me figure out everyone else. If im really a wolf, talking about other people will help you ferret them out. If im town it will give you more to go on in the future. Your not getting a lynch with just you so until other people weigh in and add something new, talk about other reads.

 

 

How do you make the red statement and the blue statements to/about the same person?

 

You saw what I saw

 

I think Sili has been weirdly defensive and self-contradictory this game too but...that seems to be Sili. I don't know Lenlo.

 

first time liz communicates with clov and since i just brought it up i figured i should quote the first time it happens.

 

incidentally i am starting to think bfg was right. don't know why clov would go after a teammate like this.

 

Liz mentioning me also brings to mind that she keeps asking about the sk and no one answers and so wouldn't the natural course of action to be explain why you're asking?

 

Meh.

 

It would be the natural course if anyone actually asked me.

 

Why didn't you ask me?

 

 

Not sure if i'd believe you and you weren't around.

[Lizabeth]

 

 

kat voted wish at a critical moment. clov and liz put a lot of emphasis on that. either tmi or strategic and it's hard to tell in retrospect.

 

basically tomorrow will be a bunch of review for me. i'm not entirely looking forward to it either.

Okay, I can't let this one go.

 

It's called logic Sili. You yourself FINALLY came to that conclusion supposedly last night

 

i don't have all the facts because i'm a villager. you can have valid logic but if your assumptions are faulty your conclusions might be wrong.

 

 

I don't even know what this means...

 

I mean, what you say is true. But I don't even understand how that applies to what I said.

 

I'm pointing out that you were trying to paint me as scummy for using logic - the same logic you yourself used today, but you argued with me about the other night - to come to the conclusion that Kat was unlikely to be teamed with Lenny.

[Sili Quirrels]

 

 

 

Is a better way to phrase it that Liz leaves things half finished? - as opposed to saying she doesn't put in the effort?

 

Yes, I think so.

Is it a better way to phrase it that you are trying to shade me again with language?

 

You know how I play Sili, so stop acting like you're ignorant.

 

What was it you said in Mario Karts after I flipped town doctor after you were tinfoiling me?

 

Something to the effect of "Oh. I  guess Liz plays strategically after alll"

 

When people try to pretend that they don't know something they should...

 

And no, that's not me shading you. That's me calling you out.

 

I'm catching up now. See you in a bit!

 

just trying to portray accurately what's happening. others are free to agree or disagree, or contribute in their own ways when i quote the posts.

 

i notice even you aren't disagreeing exactly. whatever then.

 

i really don't remember much about the mario kart game. believe that or don't. i really don't care waht you think, but there's no reason i wouldn't lie about that. if you think more strategically i don't think that really helps you.

 

 

Okay, so let me remind you.

 

In Mario Karts, I thought Calder was scum. He wasn't he was the town watcher. No one else wanted to vote for him.

 

I thought Seph was town. Calder and Clov were voting for Seph and the other votes were scattered somewhere else with no clear wagons.

 

I decided to test Chris and Calder's theory (that Seph was scum by voting for seph and seeing how the wagons formed, with some suspicion that one or both of Chris and Calder could be scum.

 

The wagons formed on Seph and Penny/celeste, who were both town. Seph wound up dying.

 

You accused me of being scummy for it although  explained to you my rationale for why I did  I died and flipped town doc and you were like "oh, my bad...I guess Liz DOES think strategically after all"

 

And as I've already explained ad nauseum, part of the way I do that is to not lay all my cards on the table at once.

 

And as I've also explained ad nauseum, I wasn't able to use that strategy very effectively this game (in terms of following up with threads) for reasons I've described too many times for me to be arsed to do it again. If you haven't read it, then you're not really doing your due diligence.

 

if i was interested in keeping track of games that are over, i would have remembered it and been able to recall it in the feirst place.

[Lizabeth]

I don't feel like I have much of a choice but to tunnel you because you're tunneling me and that's not exactly a great headspace to be in to iso you honestly. sigh.

You always have a choice. But nice that you set yourself up for "having" to tunnel me. It's never your fault.

[Sili Quirrels]

 

 

 

kat voted wish at a critical moment. clov and liz put a lot of emphasis on that. either tmi or strategic and it's hard to tell in retrospect.

 

basically tomorrow will be a bunch of review for me. i'm not entirely looking forward to it either.

Okay, I can't let this one go.

 

It's called logic Sili. You yourself FINALLY came to that conclusion supposedly last night

 

i don't have all the facts because i'm a villager. you can have valid logic but if your assumptions are faulty your conclusions might be wrong.

 

 

I don't even know what this means...

 

I mean, what you say is true. But I don't even understand how that applies to what I said.

 

I'm pointing out that you were trying to paint me as scummy for using logic - the same logic you yourself used today, but you argued with me about the other night - to come to the conclusion that Kat was unlikely to be teamed with Lenny.

 

could you say exactly what the contradiction is instead of using vague words? if you don't ill do it for you and i'll show you that you are wrong, and then i will talk about it so everyone knows that you are misrepping me intentionally.

[Sili Quirrels]

 

I don't feel like I have much of a choice but to tunnel you because you're tunneling me and that's not exactly a great headspace to be in to iso you honestly. sigh.

You always have a choice. But nice that you set yourself up for "having" to tunnel me. It's never your fault.

 

I'll try my best not to tunnel you unless i am absolutely sure, but hte more you tunnel me the less sure I'll be that I'm really sure.

 

I don't actually care if that makes sense to you. It should make sense to the people who know what being tunneled feels like.

[Lizabeth]

 

 

like if you want to be honest about this game, you read my interactions with clov and it really is never ever w/w. there is way too much genuine frustration and confusion there for it to be orchestrated. Clov also went at me first and I responded best I could and got frustrated later. I was one of the only people calling him out on his unimpressive logic, and Clov responded like I was being stupid. I didn't want to hammer clov right away because I wasn't sure about lily, but I changed my mind a little when I was reading Lily's iso and saw that there was no signs she was a wolf. I also just like pressing buttons and that's an entirely different topic XD

 

Now, you guys are free to tear apart my 850 posts because I've said a lot. Lot of stupid things. Lot of good things. That's how it goes when you post as much I have, and there's nothing I really can do to stop any of you from doing that, but please try if you're town to actually be honest with yourselves.

 

Hold up. Sorry, breaking my promise again.

 

But seriously?

 

You just spent the other night in a circular argument with me over my use of the  phrase "next to impossible" as it pertained to Lenny and Kat being scum partners, and now this is the second time you're using the phrase "never", this time trying to use it to distance yourself from Clov?

 

Your hypocrisy is showing...again.

 

I have tmi. Supposedly. You do not. supposedly.

 

Also, I was making a rhetorical argument and that's pretty clear by the tone of the post I feel. You're conflating the two and it's not exactly sound thinking.

 

Okay, let me make this simple.

 

Did you or did you not tell me that you thought I was being scummy for saying that it was "next to impossible" for Kat to be teamed with Lenny?

 

I don't want to have to go back to drag up the posts, because isoing here is a pain, but I will if I have to.

[Lizabeth]

 

 

Your iso wasn't very convincing. Opinion - me.

Yes and your opinion really matters here, because if it were convincing to you, you'd just say "oh yes, Liz is right, I'm actually scum"

 

Villagers can have convincing arguments and still be wrong.

 

 

What?

[Sili Quirrels]

You're doing it again. I'm just going to keep pointing it out from now on when you do it.

 

In answer to your question, are you not remembering stating at the start of D3 that you were not going to talk to Lenlo because he was a wolf and being "inflammatory"? You basically just agreed with me that you did that. You said it was because you didn't want to toxify the thread. Which is fine as an explanation, but don't pretend you don't remember saying it.

 

I am shading you because you just did something wolfy. Like you can complain about it and bring it up as much as you want, but it doesn't change the fact you are tacitly admitting to being wolfy when you do.

 

The fact is when someone puts a question down in vague words to hide the actual line of inquiry, aka asks a loaded question, it's because they have some stupid amount of conviction, and I see absolutely no reason why a villager as competent as you are, in your position using your arguments would have such conviction.

 

Now, I can guess what you mean because I have the facts, and if you're unwilling to elaborate I will for you. I said day that I didn't want to engage with lenlo right then because i didn't want the stress. Later i didn't have that problem. And i was annoyed. And you know what? - people are emotional creatures, so there's nothing here that is actually wrong.

[Sili Quirrels]

 

 

 

like if you want to be honest about this game, you read my interactions with clov and it really is never ever w/w. there is way too much genuine frustration and confusion there for it to be orchestrated. Clov also went at me first and I responded best I could and got frustrated later. I was one of the only people calling him out on his unimpressive logic, and Clov responded like I was being stupid. I didn't want to hammer clov right away because I wasn't sure about lily, but I changed my mind a little when I was reading Lily's iso and saw that there was no signs she was a wolf. I also just like pressing buttons and that's an entirely different topic XD

 

Now, you guys are free to tear apart my 850 posts because I've said a lot. Lot of stupid things. Lot of good things. That's how it goes when you post as much I have, and there's nothing I really can do to stop any of you from doing that, but please try if you're town to actually be honest with yourselves.

 

Hold up. Sorry, breaking my promise again.

 

But seriously?

 

You just spent the other night in a circular argument with me over my use of the  phrase "next to impossible" as it pertained to Lenny and Kat being scum partners, and now this is the second time you're using the phrase "never", this time trying to use it to distance yourself from Clov?

 

Your hypocrisy is showing...again.

 

I have tmi. Supposedly. You do not. supposedly.

 

Also, I was making a rhetorical argument and that's pretty clear by the tone of the post I feel. You're conflating the two and it's not exactly sound thinking.

 

Okay, let me make this simple.

 

Did you or did you not tell me that you thought I was being scummy for saying that it was "next to impossible" for Kat to be teamed with Lenny?

 

I don't want to have to go back to drag up the posts, because isoing here is a pain, but I will if I have to.

 

derp clear denied.

[Sili Quirrels]

 

 

 

Your iso wasn't very convincing. Opinion - me.

Yes and your opinion really matters here, because if it were convincing to you, you'd just say "oh yes, Liz is right, I'm actually scum"

 

Villagers can have convincing arguments and still be wrong.

 

 

What?

 

I'm saying your arguments failed my villagery test. I didn't find them compelling. Found them dishonest instead.