Forsaken use of the True Power

[Barid Bel Medar]

Thread for Mr Ares and Wool-headed Lummox's discussion to continue and remember to keep it civil.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I'm absolutely not wrong. From the quote from the book provided earlier in the thread: "only the Chosen knew how to tap the True Power—the Power that came from the Dark One—and few were fool enough to except in direst need." Casual use in the manner you suggest is wholly at odds with that. They know the TP is both highly dangerous and highly addictive. So they don't use it.

I'm sorry, but the only thing more monumental than your mistake is your inability to see it. The Forsaken only use the TP in the case of direst need. This is what you're saying, based on the quote you provided. Let's remember this.

 

But you point out the purpose of Graendal using it - not frivolity, but to establish her power and status over Aran'gar.

Actually, Graendal simply had to reaffirm her pre-established dominant status, Arangar was far below Graendal's level after being exposed and driven out of her base of operations. In either case you've just blatantly contradicted yourself. The Forsaken don't use the TP unless the most dire need you said? Where was the direst need for Graendal to channel TP at Arangar? As we know, Arangar was merely one of the many blips on Graendal's scheming radar, she certainly wasn't desperate to gain her respect, Graendal merely did what Forsaken want to do every second of their lives - demonstrate that they are powerful and superior whenever they can. Arangar wasn't connected to any of Graendal's major exploits, Graendal was on top of her game the whole time and risked losing nothing by allowing Arangar to grow cold/distant. Using the TP to sexually arouse a refugee Forsaken seems like the furthest thing away from a direst need for Graendal. She simply did it, because she could. Because it feels good, and grants you an advantage over others. Which is exactly the kind of thing a random Forsaken could be doing in Moggy's tent, as far as she were aware.

 

Which means, yes, the quote you provided isn't an absolute and inviolable rule. It's merely the exaggeration of a cowardly Forsaken - Mogheidin - right after a thorough honeymoon of passion with Shaidar Haran and getting mindtrapped and locked away in a vacuole. You may have noticed by now that WoT characters tend to say things which aren't objectively true, even to their knowledge.

 

And, finally, even if we interpret your quote as a 100% literal inviolable rule, which is about as reasonable as it sounds, Moggy says FEW of the Forsaken would be "fool enough" to use the TP outside of the DIREST need. Not zero. Not one. Few. As in, someone other than Moridin still might. And she had no guarantee that "Halima" wasn't that exact same someone, doing the exact same thing Graendal later did with Arangar - boasting, intimidating/influencing, and getting her kicks.

 

In short, we have no evidence whatsoever to conclude that Graendal was willing use a trickle of the TP to please herself and intimidate/influence Arangar in ToM, but that Arangar couldn't have done the same thing with Mogheidin in LoC. If Graendal did, then so could Arangar. To Moggy's knowledge.

 

I rest my case.

So I ask for evidence and you don't provide any. Is that due to laziness, or because there is none to support you? Usually, when I don't want to get a quote because I'm too lazy to go to the effort, I do at least tell people that I'm lazy - so, perhaps you're too lazy to tell me that you're too lazy to refute my points with evidence. Classy. Evidence to support a position - not your position, obviously, because yours is indefensible - looks something like this: "Her voice was cool; perhaps their alliance was wearing thin. In that case, it was time for reinforcement." That's from ToM Prologue, by the way. Casual frivolity this is not. See, what I asked for was for you to provide some back up to your position that the Chosen use the TP for frivolous reasons. You have not done so. Nor have you offered any challenge to my position that they don't use it casually in the way you suggest. Yes, Aran'gar is in an inferior position to Graendal - she is still one of the Chosen. Maintaining a dominant position over the others is not easy. By using the TP, she demonstrates that she has Shai'tan's favour, and therefore it makes it harder to make a move against her, and makes it more desirable to remain on good terms with her. By not using the TP, or finding some other way to bind Aran'gar to her, she has an enemy within her nest, one who would be quite willing to kill her. She runs a huge risk if she doesn't exert control.

 

Your position that what Moggy says isn't necessarily complete, literal, objective truth. And that's not really in doubt. However, there is a vast difference between the stated position of the Chosen, the fact that they might be exaggerating, and your position, which is wholly at odds with their stated position. See, that's where you're going wrong - the books state something which flies directly in the face of what you say, they provide no evidence to support your position, or at least none that you are willing to lower yourself to provide to us. If someone says black, I'm willing to consider that they don't necessarily mean black, blacker than, midnight, blacker than Mr Ares's soul levels of absolute blackness. If you said that when black is said, it could be taken to mean merely dark grey, I wouldn't think it too much of a stretch. But extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and someone saying black and actually meaning white, which is what you are claiming is the truth is something of an extraordinary claim (not to mention risky - when man tried to prove that black was white, he ended up getting run over on a zebra crossing).

 

Now, are you going to say, "I'm sorry, Mr Ares, you're right as usual", or are you going to find some evidence, some quote from the book, some tiny fragment buried away somewhere that might just indicate that, contrary to all evidence to the contrary so far provided, you do actually have a leg to stand on? Because you don't have a lot of other options, and it's probably best to walk away from this before you dig yourself in too deep.

 

 

 

 

 

 

So I ask for evidence and you don't provide any. Is that due to laziness, or because there is none to support you? Usually, when I don't want to get a quote because I'm too lazy to go to the effort, I do at least tell people that I'm lazy - so, perhaps you're too lazy to tell me that you're too lazy to refute my points with evidence. Classy. Evidence to support a position - not your position, obviously, because yours is indefensible - looks something like this

Ah, this is the part where you substitute the lack of substance and integrity in your train of thought with... this amusing thing that you're trying to do. I am, unfortunately, above displays of childish cockiness, and tend to skip right to the point. I'm terribly sorry, I'll leave future sweaty chest-beatings of this sort without comment, or make a trip to the zoo if I'm interested in seeing one.

 

Evidence to support a position

Earlier I provided evidence in form of the scene where Graendal casually, spontaneously, and self-servingly uses a trickle of the TP to show off her status. You've provided counter-evidence (Moggy's quote) which I've shown to be invalid and inapplicable outside of the context of its delivery. Since you've never managed to show how Graendal's strands of Air caressing Arangar's cheek are anywhere near the mention of direst need stated by Moggy, my original point still stands. To make the point accessible to you, I'll rephrase it in a simpler language. The evidence I've shown to this point is all the evidence I need, considering it has never been refuted. Graendal risked whatever horrors TP usage may have incurred for an action with a very low payoff expectation, and which undoubtedly could have been achieved with safer methods. An unknown TP channeller could have easily produced a ball of light hoping to achieve the same effect in Moggy's tent, for all she knew. I'm really hoping I don't have to spell out that the level of frivolity or lack thereof is identical in both situations, a ball of light can be as much of an indicator of TP access (and elevated status) as weaves of air, and a collared Moghiedin can be as much of a target for establishing dominance as a refugee Arangar.

 

Unless you're telling me that invisible strands of air are an infinitely more effective way of demonstrating TP access than a glowing ball of light. Anything less than that is insufficient to erase the possibility of a motive to show off potential TP access by Arangar in Moggy's tent.

 

Yes, Aran'gar is in an inferior position to Graendal - she is still one of the Chosen. Maintaining a dominant position over the others is not easy. By using the TP, she demonstrates that she has Shai'tan's favour, and therefore it makes it harder to make a move against her, and makes it more desirable to remain on good terms with her. By not using the TP, or finding some other way to bind Aran'gar to her, she has an enemy within her nest, one who would be quite willing to kill her. She runs a huge risk if she doesn't exert control.

Your idea of what the scene could or could not lead to is not evidence, it's merely a figment of your imagination, and not a highly plausible one at that. The Forsaken do not act in the manner you suggest, they are not allowed to wantonly assassinate one another (Graendal got horribly punished for that), and having no knowledge of Graendal's TP access would not have made Arangar any more or any less likely to turn on Graendal. Killing Graendal in her own palace would have marked Arangar as the culprit, as the only two living things there that are not Compelled to worship Graendal and obey her every whim are Arangar and her pet Aes Sedai Delana. And Garendal was already obviously one of the most high-ranking Forsaken at that point, considering her lavish palace, army of slaves, items of Power, endless plots/schemes, the level of fame she had garnered, and lack of horrible failures/punishments. Showing TP access was merely an addiitonal touch, an optional addition to a pre-established picture.

So no, Graendal had no pressing need to use the TP at that point.

 

However, there is a vast difference between the stated position of the Chosen, the fact that they might be exaggerating, and your position, which is wholly at odds with their stated position

We don't have a stated position of the Chosen. We have Moggy's view, which is fully inconsistent with Graendal's use of the TP, explained above. A quote contradicted by hard evidence is rendered invalid in its entirety. We now know for certain that the Forsaken use the TP without any sort of direst (or even relatively dire) need, and having no way to draw a universal border between what is sufficient and what insufficient to warrant its use, it is reasonable to conclude that Moggy was simply wrong.

 

 

And last of all, for all the heavy TP use by Ishamael and later Moridin, which all the Forsaken are perfectly aware of, we have little to no information about its allegedly horrible side-effects. A stream of black dots, and even supernaturally flaming eyes and mouth hardly seem like a despicable fate to be dreaded. Moridin's physical health, strength in the OP, or cognitive abilities seem unaffected. A tiny ball of light is nothing compared to months of exclusive TP use, and these months have proved themselves insufficient to deal any noticeable damage to Moridin (if anything, he seems much saner than his previous incarnation as Ishamael).

 

Oh, and seeing as how defeated forum dwellers usually tend to evade responsibility for their words by screaming "I don't care, you're still wrong!!" and running off, I'm really hoping I didn't waste my time typing all of the above. Have the decency to admit that your position was originally based on inaccurate and invalid assumptions, and is directly contradicted by hard evidence from the series.

[kght22]

hey barid, don't they both have the amol downloadables? i would think something like this should go in amol spoilers not general. but i wanna see the discussion!.

[Barid Bel Medar]

hey barid, don't they both have the amol downloadables? i would think something like this should go in amol spoilers not general. but i wanna see the discussion!.

 

hmmm, I am not sure, I can't see any spoilers here, but I could have just missed it, best be safe and take it to the spoiler board.

[kght22]

well i figured if it was going to be a full on discussion it shouldn't have any limits =P i hope they jump in on it, things like this can be fun to watch.

 

and yes i realize this is a message board, make sure they know where it is, give it a couple days.