Couple Ideas regarding the Last Battle

[Ishkur]

I've been reading this forum for a while now, just never bother to add my own ideas until now. So I would like to add my two cents to a couple topics being discussed here, but since I don't want to bring those discussion away from where they are going I just figured I would put them here.

 

The Seals, Bore, Creator, and Dark One

This is the one thing I've given most thought to. I realize its a few things but its all wrapped under the same umbrella of the Pattern.

First, I would like the point out that Robert Jordan studied physics, and I see a lot of ideas from physics applied into this world. The biggest is symmetry, everything seems to be symmetric and balanced. Within physics, there is an idea that particles are spontaneously generated in the vacuum of space, an electron and anti-electron (positron), such that the net energy is always zero. I believe that the Dark One, who has no other goal other than to destroy the Pattern, is the result of this concept. The creator created the Wheel, which spins out the Pattern, but what would counteract this, what would be its opposite? This would be the Dark One. For each world the Creator creates, a Dark One is created. This would explain why the Creator doesn't care about the worlds it creates, it isn't threaten by anything, it is a perfect being, and a perfect being cannot be matched.

The pattern is made up from the people that live in that world, and the basic instinct of life is to survive. The Dark One wants to destroy all life, which within my theory, would destroy himself, and if he is the opposite of the Pattern, then this is exactly what he would want, self destruction (which as a side note, works with common ideas that evil is self destructive). I believe that the Dark One, which is the source of the True Power, actually IS the True Power (I can't remember if this is stated anywhere, but being the source of something, and being that something itself are two different things). I also believe that the Creator IS the One Power (I'll open up that can of worms in a minute). The True Power destroys those who use it, look at Ishmael for example. Use of the True Power destroy his mind. The opposite of the True Power would be the Wheel, since the Wheel was created by the Creator (which I believe is the One Power), it would stand the reason that the opposite of the True Power is the One Power (not a ground shaking theory, I agree, but I'm trying to be thorough).

As for what the Creator is, there are references to "the greatest works were always done by men and women together" (It's a loose quote from the Greenman in the Eye of the World). This would be Saidin and Saidar working together to create something. When men do something alone, or when women do something alone, its always weaker than if it is done together. Obviously, if you were to use a whole hammer, it would be much more affective than using half a hammer. It is also why the True Power seems more powerful, its not divided into Saidin and Saidar, rather it is a whole source of power. Since I'm arguing that the Dark One is only as great as the Wheel itself, and the Wheel was created by a much more powerful being, the One Power, the use of Saidin and Saidar together would be stronger than the True Power. There is the problem of how the Creator can be complete opposites, but once again, going back to physics, there is no evidence (other than mathematical) that a monopole (a strictly positive or negative magnetic pole) actually exists. If something has a negative magnetic charge, it must have a positive magnetic charge. This analogy works perfectly for how the Creator can be both Saidin and Saidar, they are the exact same thing, but work in completely opposite ways.

Now getting into the meat and potatoes of all of this. I believe the Dark One's prison is the Pattern itself, by breaking free from this prison would mean he has destroyed the Pattern. Picture it like the Dark One is a spherical entity, and the Pattern is an empty sphere surrounding it. Where the Dark One was detected during the Age of Legends was where the Pattern was thinnest part of this sphere. Drilling into this sphere created the Bore which allowed the Dark One a hole in which is was able to touch the world and attempt to destroy it.. again. The Seal acted like a cork, it plugged the hole just fine, but it did not allow the Pattern to grow back over the hole and patch itself. If you have a hole in a boat and plug it, you have to remove the plug before you make any real repairs. I do not believe Rand will "rebuild" the Dark One's prison, rather, with Saidin and Saidar he will hold the Dark One while the Pattern grows over enough to create a loose patch which will eventually grow. This is where my theory will be put to the test, is how can the Pattern grow fast enough? We know it grows based upon life and ends with death, so I believe life will be started there, on the rocks of Shayol Ghul. This is where my theory gets really loony unfortunately, I think Elayne's children will be born during the Last Battle, after the Seals are broken.

Thats the gist of that thought, I may have left out some ideas, but for the most part it is complete.

 

To Live, You Must Die

I believe this is simply a warning for the Dragon saying in order for the Dragon to live on, the Dragon cannot attempt to have immortal life. If the Dragon never dies, how can he be spun back out. I don't think this is a reference to Rand surviving the last battle, and I hope he doesn't.. it just wouldn't make sense for him to survive, I think its just saying Rand must die so that the cycle can continue.

 

Anyway, feel free to rip into these or do as you see fit. Just a couple ideas from a rather bored individual.

[FarShainMael]

The Seals, Bore, Creator, and Dark One

This is the one thing I've given most thought to. I realize its a few things but its all wrapped under the same umbrella of the Pattern.

 

First, I would like the point out that Robert Jordan studied physics, and I see a lot of ideas from physics applied into this world. The biggest is symmetry, everything seems to be symmetric and balanced. Within physics, there is an idea that particles are spontaneously generated in the vacuum of space, an electron and anti-electron (positron), such that the net energy is always zero. I believe that the Dark One, who has no other goal other than to destroy the Pattern, is the result of this concept. The creator created the Wheel, which spins out the Pattern, but what would counteract this, what would be its opposite? This would be the Dark One. For each world the Creator creates, a Dark One is created. This would explain why the Creator doesn't care about the worlds it creates, it isn't threaten by anything, it is a perfect being, and a perfect being cannot be matched.

 

I've been worrying about that myself. If the Creator and the Dark One are perfectly matched, anything a perfect Creator makes, a perfect Destroyer would unmake. Eternal deadlock, which has to be broken somehow to make a Pattern possible. I've been wondering whether T'A'R is what breaks that deadlock.

 

The pattern is made up from the people that live in that world, and the basic instinct of life is to survive. The Dark One wants to destroy all life, which within my theory, would destroy himself, and if he is the opposite of the Pattern, then this is exactly what he would want, self destruction (which as a side note, works with common ideas that evil is self destructive). I believe that the Dark One, which is the source of the True Power, actually IS the True Power (I can't remember if this is stated anywhere, but being the source of something, and being that something itself are two different things). I also believe that the Creator IS the One Power (I'll open up that can of worms in a minute). The True Power destroys those who use it, look at Ishmael for example. Use of the True Power destroy his mind. The opposite of the True Power would be the Wheel, since the Wheel was created by the Creator (which I believe is the One Power), it would stand the reason that the opposite of the True Power is the One Power (not a ground shaking theory, I agree, but I'm trying to be thorough).

 

In TGS22, when Rand desperately grabs hold of the TP to free himself from Semi's dom band, the LTT-voice in his mind screams: 'That is death we hold, death and betrayal. It is HIM.'

 

This comes from a person who actually has had contact with the Dark One. Whether it is a true LTT-memory, or something Rand has subconsciously assigned to the LTT-voice, is not clear, though.

 

As for what the Creator is, there are references to "the greatest works were always done by men and women together" (It's a loose quote from the Greenman in the Eye of the World). This would be Saidin and Saidar working together to create something. When men do something alone, or when women do something alone, its always weaker than if it is done together. Obviously, if you were to use a whole hammer, it would be much more affective than using half a hammer. It is also why the True Power seems more powerful, its not divided into Saidin and Saidar, rather it is a whole source of power.

 

I don't think the TP is actually stronger than the OP, but it is more addictive, apparently:

 

http://www.theorylan...in.php?i=183#13

 

...it is a really great honor to be given the ability to tap into the True Power. Which is not inherently stronger than the One Power. It's not that it is stronger in any way. It is just something that does not have some of the limitations of the One Power.

 

...

 

QUESTION

 

And is it (the True Power) addictive?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

 

Yes.

 

QUESTION

 

Entirely.

 

ROBERT JORDAN

 

So is the One Power. That's one of the things that I intended from the beginning. The One Power has at least the potential for good, and it is something used by those on the side of good. And it is addictive, physically and psychologically addictive and also potentially very dangerous, even deadly to those who are using it.

 

 

Since I'm arguing that the Dark One is only as great as the Wheel itself, and the Wheel was created by a much more powerful being, the One Power, the use of Saidin and Saidar together would be stronger than the True Power. There is the problem of how the Creator can be complete opposites, but once again, going back to physics, there is no evidence (other than mathematical) that a monopole (a strictly positive or negative magnetic pole) actually exists. If something has a negative magnetic charge, it must have a positive magnetic charge. This analogy works perfectly for how the Creator can be both Saidin and Saidar, they are the exact same thing, but work in completely opposite ways.

 

See my thoughts about this deadlock, above.

 

Now getting into the meat and potatoes of all of this. I believe the Dark One's prison is the Pattern itself, by breaking free from this prison would mean he has destroyed the Pattern. Picture it like the Dark One is a spherical entity, and the Pattern is an empty sphere surrounding it. Where the Dark One was detected during the Age of Legends was where the Pattern was thinnest part of this sphere. Drilling into this sphere created the Bore which allowed the Dark One a hole in which is was able to touch the world and attempt to destroy it.. again. The Seal acted like a cork, it plugged the hole just fine, but it did not allow the Pattern to grow back over the hole and patch itself. If you have a hole in a boat and plug it, you have to remove the plug before you make any real repairs. I do not believe Rand will "rebuild" the Dark One's prison, rather, with Saidin and Saidar he will hold the Dark One while the Pattern grows over enough to create a loose patch which will eventually grow. This is where my theory will be put to the test, is how can the Pattern grow fast enough? We know it grows based upon life and ends with death, so I believe life will be started there, on the rocks of Shayol Ghul. This is where my theory gets really loony unfortunately, I think Elayne's children will be born during the Last Battle, after the Seals are broken.

Thats the gist of that thought, I may have left out some ideas, but for the most part it is complete.

 

Interesting mental model there..

 

At the moment Elayne is only about 5 months into her pregnancy, so the timeline analysts say. I don't know how long the actual locking-out of the Dark One would take. I would agree that it'll be a regrowth rather than a reseal, also that the regrowth won't be sudden. But there are indications* that Elayne may finish her pregnancy in T'A'R, where time runs differently from the waking world; so the four months of that completion can be accommodated. Furthermore, if the connection between T'A'R and the waking world can go both ways, it might be that Elayne's giving birth actually heals the Pattern!

 

*Others have pointed out that the names Boann and Dagda have appeared in the books.. and the myth of 'Boann and the Dagda' has Boann completing a 9-month pregnancy in the Underworld in the space of a single night in the mortal world!

 

http://www.lifeasmyt...BoannDagda.html

 

To Live, You Must Die

I believe this is simply a warning for the Dragon saying in order for the Dragon to live on, the Dragon cannot attempt to have immortal life. If the Dragon never dies, how can he be spun back out. I don't think this is a reference to Rand surviving the last battle, and I hope he doesn't.. it just wouldn't make sense for him to survive, I think its just saying Rand must die so that the cycle can continue.

 

It's a thought! I too don't think he will survive the LB, despite what the Aelfinn said, which was 'if you would live, you must die'; but they said nothing about 'if you would live after the Last Battle'.

[ozimandias]

I believe the Dark One's prison is the Pattern itself, by breaking free from this prison would mean he has destroyed the Pattern. Picture it like the Dark One is a spherical entity, and the Pattern is an empty sphere surrounding it. Where the Dark One was detected during the Age of Legends was where the Pattern was thinnest part of this sphere. Drilling into this sphere created the Bore which allowed the Dark One a hole in which is was able to touch the world and attempt to destroy it.. again. The Seal acted like a cork, it plugged the hole just fine, but it did not allow the Pattern to grow back over the hole and patch itself. If you have a hole in a boat and plug it, you have to remove the plug before you make any real repairs. I do not believe Rand will "rebuild" the Dark One's prison, rather, with Saidin and Saidar he will hold the Dark One while the Pattern grows over enough to create a loose patch which will eventually grow. This is where my theory will be put to the test, is how can the Pattern grow fast enough? We know it grows based upon life and ends with death, so I believe life will be started there, on the rocks of Shayol Ghul. This is where my theory gets really loony unfortunately, I think Elayne's children will be born during the Last Battle, after the Seals are broken.

This goes a bit along the lines of my own thinking on the matter. However, I think there is a much more straightforward way to reweave/repair the pattern quickly. Ta'veren. And we have 3 of the strongest Ta'veren and happen to know that them being together is a key to the saving of the world.

 

If you really want to go the 'life' route to regrowing the pattern... Hard to believe that a couple children being born could balance out the thousands who would no doubt die near/at SG. Though some people have theorized Aviendiah gets pregnant in some kind of strange way at the LB... perhaps RJ is a life begins at conception sort of guy.

[Razdif]

The pattern is made up from the people that live in that world, and the basic instinct of life is to survive. The Dark One wants to destroy all life, which within my theory, would destroy himself, and if he is the opposite of the Pattern, then this is exactly what he would want, self destruction (which as a side note, works with common ideas that evil is self destructive). I believe that the Dark One, which is the source of the True Power, actually IS the True Power (I can't remember if this is stated anywhere, but being the source of something, and being that something itself are two different things). I also believe that the Creator IS the One Power (I'll open up that can of worms in a minute). The True Power destroys those who use it, look at Ishmael for example. Use of the True Power destroy his mind. The opposite of the True Power would be the Wheel, since the Wheel was created by the Creator (which I believe is the One Power), it would stand the reason that the opposite of the True Power is the One Power (not a ground shaking theory, I agree, but I'm trying to be thorough).

As for what the Creator is, there are references to "the greatest works were always done by men and women together" (It's a loose quote from the Greenman in the Eye of the World). This would be Saidin and Saidar working together to create something. When men do something alone, or when women do something alone, its always weaker than if it is done together. Obviously, if you were to use a whole hammer, it would be much more affective than using half a hammer. It is also why the True Power seems more powerful, its not divided into Saidin and Saidar, rather it is a whole source of power. Since I'm arguing that the Dark One is only as great as the Wheel itself, and the Wheel was created by a much more powerful being, the One Power, the use of Saidin and Saidar together would be stronger than the True Power. There is the problem of how the Creator can be complete opposites, but once again, going back to physics, there is no evidence (other than mathematical) that a monopole (a strictly positive or negative magnetic pole) actually exists. If something has a negative magnetic charge, it must have a positive magnetic charge. This analogy works perfectly for how the Creator can be both Saidin and Saidar, they are the exact same thing, but work in completely opposite ways.

Now getting into the meat and potatoes of all of this. I believe the Dark One's prison is the Pattern itself, by breaking free from this prison would mean he has destroyed the Pattern. Picture it like the Dark One is a spherical entity, and the Pattern is an empty sphere surrounding it. Where the Dark One was detected during the Age of Legends was where the Pattern was thinnest part of this sphere. Drilling into this sphere created the Bore which allowed the Dark One a hole in which is was able to touch the world and attempt to destroy it.. again. The Seal acted like a cork, it plugged the hole just fine, but it did not allow the Pattern to grow back over the hole and patch itself.

 

I've been thinking about the DO and the pattern in relation to this a lot today actually. I believe that the creator isn't inherently good and that the pattern essentially serves the role of the good side. This is because the wheel works to protect its own existence and therefore because the DO wants to destroy it the wheel acts in the interest of the light pretty much all of the time.

 

In regards to the pattern surrounding the DO I am in agreement but I'm torn on exactly how they'll 'repair the damage'.

[Ishkur]

This goes a bit along the lines of my own thinking on the matter. However, I think there is a much more straightforward way to reweave/repair the pattern quickly. Ta'veren. And we have 3 of the strongest Ta'veren and happen to know that them being together is a key to the saving of the world.

 

If you really want to go the 'life' route to regrowing the pattern... Hard to believe that a couple children being born could balance out the thousands who would no doubt die near/at SG. Though some people have theorized Aviendiah gets pregnant in some kind of strange way at the LB... perhaps RJ is a life begins at conception sort of guy.

 

Yeah, I didn't like my own idea regarding babies being born there, but I couldn't think of an alternative idea. Ta'verens reshape the pattern around them, maybe thats enough... maybe they just need to distort the pattern such that it is over the bore and prevents the dark one from being free. This idea makes a lot more sense.

 

 

I've been thinking about the DO and the pattern in relation to this a lot today actually. I believe that the creator isn't inherently good and that the pattern essentially serves the role of the good side. This is because the wheel works to protect its own existence and therefore because the DO wants to destroy it the wheel acts in the interest of the light pretty much all of the time.

 

I really like this idea, it also works with the way the Creator was described earlier in the series...