He Who Is Dead Yet Lives

[RushavMohanty]

I don't know what twists and turns this last installment will throw at us so I want to make clear that I'm not speculating on the plot of book but solely and strictly on an interpretation of the following Foretelling. I've looked quite a bit and I don't think literally anyone has made this connection. I just wanted to bring to all of our collective attentions this particular foretelling by Nicola: "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle."

 

Bear with me because I'll start with some explaining first.

 

Now I don't presume to know everything that is out there concerning mythology, but what I do know is that Robert Jordan primarily draws from Norse, Slavic and Celtic-Arthurian legends.

 

Notice that I refer to the Celtic/Cymri and oldest known versions of Arthur. This is important because the Celtic version has a very different ending. Arthur has been struck a wound on his side that even Merlin cannot heal after a few traitorous factions in his kingdom side with the Vandals who are invading Albion (England). Arthur heals, comes back and deals with the Vandals.

 

Here's the interesting part; Merlin decides that Arthur should go for healing to Avalon referenced as a "dreamlike" other-world. They go by boat because Avalon is an island. With Arthur go three women: Igraine, Guenhywvar and Nimue. Now forgetting about these three women's context in the Arthurian tradition and seeing them from a WoT perspective the parallels that Robert Jordan is drawing are clear. Igraine is the mother of Elaine in the Celtic legend and Queen in her own right unlike the other two women [Elayne], Guenhywvar is sometimes referenced as an atypical woman for her time because she would travel with Arthur during his wars [Aviendha], Nimue is Merlin's apprentice and able to see the future [Min].

 

So these three women take Arthur who is obviously parallel to Rand for healing to a "dreamlike" place for healing. Now comes the most interesting part. Arthur has always been given the title of Pendragon in his stories. And there is a prophecy concerning Arthur that proclaims him as the "once and future king". That he will come back at times of utmost need much like the Dragon Reborn.

 

This is where I think we can tie Nicola's Foretelling to Min's about Rand having to die and live again. I strongly believe that between Rand's dying and living again we might see quite a lot of Tel'aran'rhiod. We can further replace Merlin with Moiraine and Alivia. The first counseling a course of action that leads to Rand's "death" and the second "helping" him along with it for his eventual return during the closing stages of the Last Battle. Moraine and Alivia put him onto the figurative boat. Apart from that I don't think the boat is that important except in the sense that Rand, Min, Aviendha and Elayne are all in the same boat. Which they are since they're bonded.

 

That bring us to "The great battle done, but the world not done with battle". I believe that the great battle here is actually the events between the Field of Merrilor and Seals and that Rand goes ahead with Moraine advising him and forcefully breaks the Seals. But he is betrayed like Arthur was betrayed by factions that should have been on his side, namely, foolish and insecure Aes Sedai who are too afraid to do what is right and break the Seals. He is successful in breaking the Seals but betrayal leads to him getting mortally wounded (his unhealed wounds break, again the parallel with Arthur). So the Dark One is loose and Rand must return again because "the world [is] not done with battle" and everyone is doomed if he does not. Elayne, Aviendha and Min coax him back to health while Perrin, Mat and the world hold off the Shadow with Logain also earning his glory during this time.

 

[Retroactive Change]

When I say that I don't mean to imply that the great battle is conflict at the Fields of Merrilor between the gathered armies but the events happening BETWEEN the meeting there until the predicted breaking of the seals. I don't think "great battle" is a literal battle either so I'll have to agree do disagree that it could just be any one battle like Caemlyn or Black Tower.

 

I think it refers to the figurative overarching battle that Rand faces including but not limited to: Tarwins Gap, Black Tower, White Tower/Seanchan, contest of wills against Egwene. He has to fight the good fight on so many fronts. I really think it refers to the Dragon Reborn's personal struggle to both reconcile his own forces and keep the Shadow at bay at the same time. It is the battle to take the first step to the Last Battle; the breaking of the Seals. Remember that Brandon Sanderson has said that he kept away from internal POV's of Rand until AMoL because it was important from a literary perspective to do that in AMoL.

 

The betrayal I leave to all of you to speculate upon. All I will say is that I don't think it's Alivia because of the following:

 

"Melaine and Bair dreamed of you on a boat," Aviendha said, the word still awkward after all these months in the wetlands, "with three women whose faces they could not see, and a scale tilting first one way then the other. Melaine and Amys dreamed of a man standing by your side with a dagger to your throat, but you did not see him. Bair and Amys dreamed of you cutting the wetlands in two with a sword."

 

It has got to be a man. I suspect Taim, Moridin, or Demandred (Shaidar Haran is not a man and is excluded) will be responsible for the fatal blow that will setup Rand's eventual healing an return. He/they will proabably strike just as the seals are broken. As user:herid says below that Perrin and Nynaeve might have a hand in Rands resurrection but I think its more likely that they are helping him with Breaking the seals along with Alivia who will ease his passing. This is foreshadowed by Rand asking Nynaeve to come back to him unchanged by Tower politics implying that he needs her to stand up Egwene and Perrin's choice of location for his camp (away from the rest who are at Merrilor). After the deed is done, Rand is taken for his resurrection via Tel'aran'rhiod by Min, Aviendha and Elayne or a combination of one or two going into the dream for him while the others keep guard outside.

[Retroactive Change]

 

And that's my theory!

 

As a side note I also had another theory where the boat means Rands has to cross the ocean with Min, Aviendha and Elayne to go to bow at the Crystal Throne in Seanchan. But I'll explore that some other time. I think the Arthur theory is more weighty anyways.

[ineedfourberfs]

Well, I'm convinced.

 

That being said, I think the part of that theory that has been discussed the least is the betrayal factor. IE who, when, where etc. The rest just follows.

 

Is it possible it's Alivia? The whole help you die thing....

[WhiskyJack]

Dragon is a hero of horn. I couldn't read OP's long post that but for Dragon, death is no bar. All you have to do is to blow a horn.

[herid]

Thanks for posting your theory. I didn't know some bits about the cetic version of the arthurian myths but otherwise your theory is quite close to a theory of terez. It has been around for a while and it is very popular on the forums. I highly recommend comparing it to yours.

 

 

 

Now I don't presume to know everything that is out there concerning mythology, but what I do know is that Robert Jordan primarily draws from Norse, Slavic and Celtic-Arthurian legends.

also north american indian legends but very few fans know anything about those so that part is usually ignored. I don't know anything about them myself.

 

 

Notice that I refer to the Celtic/Cymri and oldest known versions of Arthur. This is important because the Celtic version has a very different ending. Arthur has been struck a wound on his side that even Merlin cannot heal after a few traitorous factions in his kingdom side with the Vandals who are invading Albion (England). Arthur heals, comes back and deals with the Vandals.

 

Here's the interesting part; Merlin decides that Arthur should go for healing to Avalon referenced as a "dreamlike" other-world. They go by boat because Avalon is an island. With Arthur go three women: Igraine, Guenhywvar and Nimue. Now forgetting about these three women's context in the Arthurian tradition and seeing them from a WoT perspective the parallels that Robert Jordan is drawing are clear. Igraine is the mother of Elaine in the Celtic legend and Queen in her own right unlike the other two women [Elayne], Guenhywvar is sometimes referenced as an atypical woman for her time because she would travel with Arthur during his wars [Aviendha], Nimue is Merlin's apprentice and able to see the future [Min].

 

So these three women take Arthur who is obviously parallel to Rand for healing to a "dreamlike" place for healing. Now comes the most interesting part. Arthur has always been given the title of Pendragon in his stories. And there is a prophecy concerning Arthur that proclaims him as the "once and future king". That he will come back at times of utmost need much like the Dragon Reborn.

 

This is where I think we can tie Nicola's Foretelling to Min's about Rand having to die and live again. I strongly believe that between Rand's dying and living again we might see quite a lot of Tel'aran'rhiod. We can further replace Merlin with Moiraine and Alivia. The first counseling a course of action that leads to Rand's "death" and the second "helping" him along with it for his eventual return during the closing stages of the Last Battle. Moraine and Alivia put him onto the figurative boat. Apart from that I don't think the boat is that important except in the sense that Rand, Min, Aviendha and Elayne are all in the same boat. Which they are since they're bonded.

 

That bring us to "The great battle done, but the world not done with battle". I believe that the great battle here is actually the events at the Field of Merrilor

quite unlikely IMO that it will be Merrilor. There are a number of serious battles looming elsewhere (Caemlyn, BT and the Seanchan attack on the WT) so I expect it will be one of those. I suspect that the Merrilor meeting will be broken up by news of those battles with nothing decided and no confrontation happening at Merrilor. The actual Peace of the Dragon will likely happen after Rand's resurrection later in the story.

 

and Seals and that Rand goes ahead with Moraine advising him and forcefully breaks the Seals. But he is betrayed like Arthur was betrayed by factions that should have been on his side, namely, foolish and insecure Aes Sedai who are too afraid to do what is right and break the Seals. He is successful in breaking the Seals but betrayal leads to him getting mortally wounded (his unhealed wounds break, again the parallel with Arthur). So the Dark One is loose and Rand must return again because "the world [is] not done with battle" and everyone is doomed if he does not. Elayne, Aviendha and Min coax him back to health while Perrin, Mat and the world hold off the Shadow with Logain also earning his glory during this time.

 

There are a number of in-book and out of book references suggesting that Perrin and Nynaeve will be very involved in Rand's resurrection too. Terez discusses some in her theory. There are a number of foreshadowing in the book that Nynaeve will bring back to life someone (likely rand) 3 days dead. Her theory on how is that Nynaeve will push dead Rand out of TAR the way Moggy did with Birgitte. Don't know if this ties in with any myths but such in-book references should not be ignored even if it doesn't. There are also a number of clues that Perrin will be involved in Rand's resurrection too. terez discusses those too.

 

Also, I suspect that Min will be more directly involved with Rand's resurrection than is assumed.

 

Climbing onto the bed on her knees, she cupped his face in her hands, “You listen to me, Rand al’Thor. I won’t let you die. And if you manage it just to spite me, I’ll follow you and bring you back.”

-WH, Ch 25

 

This looks like a foreshadowing to me. Min never made a trip to TAR but who knows, maybe she will to get Rand back.

 

On a more speculative note, there is possible basis based on some legends that Jordan used. In particular, Perrin character is based on the Slavic thundergod Perun. (I discuss Perrin-Prun parallels in my blog.)

 

There is an extremely popular Russian fairy tale (every Russian knows it) called "Ivan Tsarevich and the Grey Wolf."

The character of the grey wolf in this fairy tale is loosely based on Perun. I don't want to recount the whole fairy tale but the grey wolf is a very wise character in it and it helps out the main character Ivan Tsarevich repeatedly out of a number of increasingly tight spots. The last tight spot is particularly tight. Ivan Tsarevich gets killed! Then the wolf gets magical "dead water" ("mertvaya voda") and "water of life" ("zhivaya voda"). When the wolf sprinkles "dead water" on Ivan Tsarevich his wounds close and when he sprinkles "water of life" on him, Ivan Tsarevich comes back to life.

 

Now, this is a wild speculation but maybe Perrin will be involved in bringing Rand back to life in some fashion (accrding to Min he has to be there twice for Rand and the second time has not come to pass). Also, "mertvaya voda" and "zhyvaya voda" may be somehow related to spilling of Rand's blood which is supposed to happen twice "once for mourning and once for birth".

[Terez]

Yeah, I believe the body on the boat is the one that was ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod, and the purpose of the three women is to save him with the bond as Birgitte was saved by Elayne. It would explain the apparent contradiction in the funeral bier and the boat. Min's role I think will be to confirm that Birgitte is indeed still tied to Gaidal at least, and probably still tied to the Horn as well - only Min knows that, because of her visions. The 'great battle' is most likely the Battle of Caemlyn (which is a Camlann parallel - surprised you missed that one), and of course that's probably where Rand will die. The battle in the city will probably be tied to the Black Tower battle.

[RushavMohanty]

@herid

 

"I believe that the great battle here is actually the events at the Field of Merrilor and Seals and that Rand goes ahead with Moraine advising him and forcefully breaks the Seals"

 

When I said that I did not mean to imply that the great battle was conflict at the Fields of Merrilor but the events happening BETWEEN the meeting there until the predicted breaking of the seals. I don't think "great battle" is a literal battle either so I'll have to agree do disagree that it could just be any one battle like Caemlyn or Black Tower. Will be retroactively changing the original post and I'll highlight the change as well.

 

I think it refers to the figurative overarching battle that Rand faces including but not limited to: Tarwins Gap, Black Tower, White Tower/Seanchan, contest of wills against Egwene. He has to fight the good fight on so many fronts. I really think it refers to the Dragon Reborn's personal struggle to both reconcile his own forces and keep the Shadow at bay at the same time. Remember that Brandon Sanderson has said that he kept of internal POV's of Rand until AMoL because it was important from a literary perspective to do that in AMoL.

 

And on a more informal note....

 

i didn't know about the native North American legends as well...interesting. i've checked out terez's posts before including that one you mentioned but i just don't see much similarity except we're interpreting the same quote and shes mentioned arthur....maybe point me in the right direction?

 

and finally....someone else who knows about baba yaga, the wolf, the three horsemen, tsarevich ivan and rest.....we need to compare notes a lot more

[WhiskyJack]

I will still go with my horn theory Blow the horn bit***, blow the frakking horn!

[Terez]

I don't think "great battle" is a literal battle either so I'll have to agree do disagree that it could just be any one battle like Caemlyn or Black Tower.

You should probably qualify that opinion with something practical, since it seems like the battle of the century is brewing at Caemlyn. We can see the plans for it reaching all the way back to TPOD at the latest when they started building the wall around the Black Tower grounds. That wall didn't make any sense until we learned about the dreamspike, because it was begun with full knowledge of Traveling, which was not being kept secret in any way among Asha'man. Brandon says Demandred is considered the Shadow's 'main player', and Demandred's strength is as a general. Consider these things:

 

1. The area of the dreamspike is adjustable, so it might be extended to include the city.

 

2. Taim is now forcibly turning channelers to the Shadow, and may manage to increase his numbers from around 200 to...500? More? We don't know. This was presumably the whole point of building the wall around the Black Tower in the first place.

 

3. Demandred is most likely in Murandy, with a newly-unified army of Andor-haters. He's also likely to be tracking Talmanes with the gold-worked pipe (metal holds a Finder weave forever, so long as the pipe remains in Talmanes' possession).

 

4. The Legion of the Dragon is a suspicious force, and it might have something to do with Bashere's 'something dark'.

 

5. There are thousands of mercenaries surrounding Caemlyn, only a league from the walls. The Band was allowed to camp a little closer, but half their number went with Elayne to Cairhien and then Merrilor. There was a little drama between Elayne and three mercenary captains in KOD. This could be a great foreshadowing for the mercenaries surrounding the city now. They could have been bought by anyone, and Demandred probably has methods to obtain gold. He was able to pay the Band nicely.

 

6. The Shadowspawn attack was known about by several Darkfriends, from Verin to the prisoners in Caemlyn, but it seemed strange to me to refer to a Shadowspawn attack as an 'invasion'.

 

7. The Battle of Camlann is essentially the ultimate battle of Arthurian legend, so it's a good parallel, especially seeing as how there are many hints that Rand must die before the Last Battle is won.

 

8. Great Battle=Caemlyn would explain why Nicola's Foretelling seems to suggest that the Aes Sedai and the Asha'man are finally united. With the land still divided by the Return, that explains why the Last Battle hasn't been won yet - 'the two must be as one' - and why it is so important for Rand to be resurrected - 'the future teeters on the edge of a blade'.

 

Also, I should add that I have always dug the idea that Lan would die and, as a Hero of the Horn, get in on the action in Tel'aran'rhiod as Slayer is trying to kill Rand and Nynaeve is trying to resurrect him. The Perun legends definitely seem to point in that direction, as herid mentioned. When Rand dies - the dead water - he shows up in Tel'aran'rhiod, where his wounds are healed. Nynaeve ripping him out is the living water, which leads to the boat. In the meantime, Perrin has a chance to shine against Slayer in Tel'aran'rhiod. But with Moghedien and Cyndane involved, Perrin and Nynaeve might not be enough. Would Egwene be involved? Hard to say. It seems like she would be occupied in the real world, but maybe she can swing both.

 

Anyway, I can see Lan dying. I can also see him not dying. But it just seems like everything points toward his death, and if there's going to be a fight with Slayer, it seems like he should be there. That could happen in the real world, but it would make the most sense in Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

Here is the Perun page I derived most of my speculations from. As for the location of the boat, I'm tempted to place it somewhere in the Two Rivers. Partly this is because of the Perun bits:

 

In Slavic mythology, the world was represented by a sacred tree, usually an oak, whose branches and trunk represented the living world of heavens and mortals, while its roots represented the underworld, i.e. the realm of dead. Perun was a ruler of the living world, sky and earth, and was often symbolised by an eagle sitting on the top of the tallest branch of the tree, from which he kept watch over the entire world. Perun was a punisher of evil-doers. Deep down in the roots of the tree was the place of his enemy, symbolised by a serpent or a dragon: this was Zaltys, a great serpent curled at the base of the world tree (which people later associated with Veles, watery god of the underworld)....

 

...The Slavonic tales abound in accounts of how a dead hero is restored to life by means of this precious liquid, which is sometimes brought by the Whirlwind, the Thunder, and the Hail, sometimes by their types the Raven, the Hawk, the Eagle, and the Dove. But they differ from most of the similar stories in this respect. They have two species of what is called the "strong" or the "heroic" water. The one is called "the dead water" (mertvaya voda); the other the "living [or vivifying] water" (zhivaya voda). Contrary to its name, however, the dead water does not bring death; rather, it makes mutilated bodies whole, and heals wounds. But unlike live water, it does not possess the power of resurrection. Folktales are replete with motifs of dead and live water. Like the spring rains which first melt the earth, purify her, make her whole, while the following rains resurrect her, the dead hero too is first sprinkled with dead water, and then with live water, before he comes to life again. When that has been done, the corpse first shudders and then sits up, usually remarking "How long I have been asleep?" or "Oh, did I sleep too long?"

 

What is the source of these waters? This brings us to the arbor mundi, the world tree. There, in the centre of the universe stands the oak tree, on its top sits the bird of paradise, the eagle, under its roots lies the snake demon. Two springs flow out from under the tree; one of live water, and the other of dead water. Near the springs sit three women, the fortune tellers. One knows the past, the other the future, and the third, the present. They decide what should be and what should not be, and the fate of every being. They bring death or life, and continuously work over the creation of the world (Here I may add that one of the magical values of live water is that it imparts wisdom and power to tell the future).

Some clues were dropped in the early books and then abandoned as if they were not important, about the importance of the Tree of Life to Almoth Plain. Perrin keeps watch over the world from the Two Rivers, and the red eagle in the Mountains of Mist - Manetheren - is obviously a big deal in Perrin's plotline, no matter how it turns out. Perrin has made concessions to a number of people, but it's looking like Mat is headed for a position of authority in the Empire, which holds Perrin's banner. And Mat has a special affection for Manetheren himself, since most of his memories are from there (and some of them - memories of being Aemon - he had before the 'Finns). Also, the 'Griffin Pact' referenced in the future Aviendha saw is a reference to the eagle.

 

All that is pretty dodgy stuff to go on, but then add to that Rand's little daydreams about swimming in the Waterwood with his three women, and it starts to look likely to me. Why there? Because it's a good place to hide? I dunno. Because Rand wants to go home? There may be something particularly safe about being on the water, maybe making it more difficult to find Rand. And I'm wondering if the Sea Folk still have an important part to play that's been heavily foreshadowed but not yet guessed by the fandom. The Waterwood is just a guess really. Another guess is that they'll take him to Illian in the boat. The Horn is supposed to be brought there for some reason, and assuming Mat kicks ass at Caemlyn he might decide to attack Tuon at the borders of Illian. Or she might attack Illian. Presumably no one will be home when she attacks the White Tower, and that's assuming she doesn't change her mind as soon as word gets out about Merrilor (and Merrilor might be interrupted by the events at Caemlyn).

 

But back to the dead water/ living water thing. You might say that the Tarendrelle is the 'dead water' since that's where most of the men of Manetheren died. And their deaths there allowed women and children and such to escape across the Manetherendrelle - the 'living water'. Of course they don't have these mystical properties, but they can be a parallel to the resurrection process. Also, RJ never goes for exact copies of the legends - he goes for very different things that could reasonably have been the source of the various legends after centuries or eons of changing in the retelling. The serpent enemy could be the Seanchan at Falme, or Luc in the Two Rivers. Knowing RJ, it's probably both and something else too.

[RushavMohanty]

Yeah, I believe the body on the boat is the one that was ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod, and the purpose of the three women is to save him with the bond as Birgitte was saved by Elayne. It would explain the apparent contradiction in the funeral bier and the boat. Min's role I think will be to confirm that Birgitte is indeed still tied to Gaidal at least, and probably still tied to the Horn as well - only Min knows that, because of her visions. The 'great battle' is most likely the Battle of Caemlyn (which is a Camlann parallel - surprised you missed that one), and of course that's probably where Rand will die. The battle in the city will probably be tied to the Black Tower battle.

 

No friend I did not miss Cad Camlann. I omitted it because of various reasons:

 

1) I refer to the Celtic/Cymri Arthur, and in that tradition the battle you refer to is in "The Dream of Rhonabwy" which is a satirical work that pokes fun at and not reveres Arthur. Generally, just not a serious piece of Welsh literature.

 

2) Nevertheless if we were to use the version you refer to which is Geoffrey Monmouth's bastardized "Alliterative Morte Arthure" it still wouldn't be appropriate because Camlann is the FINAL ending of Arthur where Mordred strikes the Dolores Stroke (Rand's unhealed wound and Fisher King ref) to his side. This is a more apt parallel to the what the Shadow wants the outcome to be. Moridin wins his game of sha'ra and smites Rand (Arthur/Fisher King). I think Robert Jordan planned to portray that part of Arthurian legend as a sort of Shadow Prophecy. And it fits because who knows, maybe in the passing of time the information was twisted and in the 21st century we all believe Moridin/Mordred and Rand/Arthur killed each other.

 

3)Another problem with Camlann is that after this battle Arthur is placed on the boat and only the Lady of the Lake accompanies him whereas I think Robert Jordan (he wrote the ending so I credit him, sorry Brandon) was referring to the Cymri Arthur and to a battle before Camlann (Mordred in his modern form doesn't exist in Celtic Arthur). That's the battle with the Vandals that took Arthur to Ierne (Ireland) and then his wife and two other women take him to Avalon for healing. He eventually return to defeat the Vandals. And another tidbit of information; Arthur allows a reconciliation between his allies that had turned from him and joined the Vandals, he even settles the Vandals in Britain. Sound like the Peace of the Pendra....errr...Dragon?

 

In short the Vandal Saga in the Mabinogion represents Arthurs resurrection and Camlann was his final doom. So you tell me which one is more fitting.

 

By the way all, Cymri are the ancient Welsh/Celtic people.

 

Just saw your post Terez so I'm adding.

 

I'm not saying Caemlyn isn't significant just that IMO the "great battle" part refers to that PLUS others battles that lead to the breaking of the seals. So I'm not trying to detract what you're saying per say

[Terez]

Yeah, I believe the body on the boat is the one that was ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod, and the purpose of the three women is to save him with the bond as Birgitte was saved by Elayne. It would explain the apparent contradiction in the funeral bier and the boat. Min's role I think will be to confirm that Birgitte is indeed still tied to Gaidal at least, and probably still tied to the Horn as well - only Min knows that, because of her visions. The 'great battle' is most likely the Battle of Caemlyn (which is a Camlann parallel - surprised you missed that one), and of course that's probably where Rand will die. The battle in the city will probably be tied to the Black Tower battle.

 

No friend I did not miss Cad Camlann. I omitted it because of various reasons:

 

1) I refer to the Celtic/Cymri Arthur, and in that tradition the battle you refer to is in "The Dream of Rhonabwy" which is a satirical work that pokes fun at and not reveres Arthur. Generally, just not a serious piece of Welsh literature.

It doesn't matter, since RJ mixes and matches them.

 

2) Nevertheless if we were to use the version you refer to which is Geoffrey Monmouth's bastardized "Alliterative Morte Arthure" it still wouldn't be appropriate because Camlann is the FINAL ending of Arthur where Mordred strikes the Dolores Stroke (Rand's unhealed wound and Fisher King ref) to his side. This is a more apt parallel to the what the Shadow wants the outcome to be. Moridin wins his game of sha'ra and smites Rand (Arthur/Fisher King). I think Robert Jordan planned to portray that part of Arthurian legend as a sort of Shadow Prophecy. And it fits because who knows, maybe in the passing of time the information was twisted and in the 21st century we all believe Moridin/Mordred and Rand/Arthur killed each other.

1. RJ doesn't do exact parallels.

 

2. There are several things pointing to a temporary Shadow victory - like the one thing that was the same in every single life Rand lived during the Portal Stone trip to Toman Head - and specifically, there several things pointing to Rand dying before he has won the Last Battle. Again, read the pages herid linked for you (in my sig, WoT FAQ - Blood on the Rocks in particular, and see also Dark Prophecies and The Black Tower and Demandred).

 

3)Another problem with Camlann is that after this battle Arthur is placed on the boat and only the Lady of the Lake accompanies him whereas I think Robert Jordan (he wrote the ending so I credit him, sorry Brandon) was referring to the Cymri Arthur and to a battle before Camlann (Mordred in his modern form doesn't exist in Celtic Arthur). That's the battle with the Vandals that took Arthur to Ierne (Ireland) and then his wife and two other women take him to Avalon for healing. He eventually return to defeat the Vandals. And another tidbit of information; Arthur allows a reconciliation between his allies that had turned from him and joined the Vandals, he even settles the Vandals in Britain. Sound like the Peace of the Pendra....errr...Dragon?

Again, RJ does not do exact parallels of the legends, nor does he pick and choose versions of them. WoT is theoretically supposed to be the source of all of the legends, and he draws from nearly every known version of the Arthurian legends in some form or another. Linda has several articles dealing with these parallels at 13th Depository (see the reference library link in my sig).

[RushavMohanty]

hahaha and just as east as that i've met my downfall at the hands of the mighty terez

 

I'm aware RJ didn't do parallels like that but theorizing has to start somewhere right?

 

just conjecture....maybe i shouldnt have attributed my opinons to RJ....not professional :)

[RushavMohanty]

something interesting for you to consider....RJ might have used the Celtic versions as the template and in terms of today's world, Monmouth's versions is what we get because of the loss of info....but thats straying off topic

[Thanatos]

It has got to be a man. I suspect Taim, Moridin, or Demandred (Shaidar Haran is not a man and is excluded) will be responsible for the fatal blow that will setup Rand's eventual healing an return.

 

How awesome would it be for Demandred to get the killing blow he SO desires.

 

Demy to himself: There's that bastard Lews Therin! Damn he doesn't even see me.

 

(Fireballs engulf Rand.)

 

Demy: I got him, FINALLY I GOT HIM. I AM THE GREATEST EVER!!!!!

 

(Nynaeve Rips Rand out of TAR)

 

Rand: Hey Demy, you finally got me. Good for you. (raises hand)

 

Demy: NO!!! I FINALLY DID IT, ITS NOT FAIR!!!!!

 

(Demy gets balefired.)

 

Greatest moment in WoT ever.

[Terez]

something interesting for you to consider....RJ might have used the Celtic versions as the template and in terms of today's world, Monmouth's versions is what we get because of the loss of info....but thats straying off topic

Eh, not really. I get the feeling that RJ wants to suggest that all of the legends, even the later ones that have obviously fictional bits in them, have some unique element of the truth. While generally you'd think he'd be suggesting that the oldest legends are the most accurate, I think there are some details he's referenced that are only found in Monmouth, and some that are only found in even later versions of the story. For example, he seems to be headed toward having Rand dead, resurrected, and then living out the rest of his life in the Two Rivers - probably the Westwood - anonymously. In that case, people might catch a glimpse of him every now and then, which would fit with the almost-contemporary legends of Arthur being sighted in the forest after his death. Of course, that one is still theoretical, but it's looking very likely.

[herid]

 

4. The Legion of the Dragon is a suspicious force, and it might have something to do with Bashere's 'something dark'.

I've read your theory on the legion of the Dragon but it looks quite doubtful to me. While it's somewhat suspicious that Taim suggested creating it, the legion is under Bashere's control and has been for a while. At worst it might be infiltrated to a degree but surely less that the BT itself and even there Taim has not turned everybody. I think Black Ash'aman number no more than 200. The rest are lightsiders and Rand has a large number out of BT and answering directly to him.

 

 

8. Great Battle=Caemlyn would explain why Nicola's Foretelling seems to suggest that the Aes Sedai and the Asha'man are finally united. With the land still divided by the Return, that explains why the Last Battle hasn't been won yet - 'the two must be as one' - and why it is so important for Rand to be resurrected - 'the future teeters on the edge of a blade'.

I never understood that part of your argument. The foretelling says "the guardians balance the servants". It doesn't look to me like it says that the Aes Sedai and the Aha'man are united. It would seem to say the opposite - that they are divided but balance each other out.

 

Also, I should add that I have always dug the idea that Lan would die and, as a Hero of the Horn, get in on the action in Tel'aran'rhiod as Slayer is trying to kill Rand and Nynaeve is trying to resurrect him.

 

I don't know about Lan becoming a hero of the Horn and the rest of it but I do have a suspicion that Lan might die based on Min's viewing of him where she sees a babe in a cradle with a sword. That's generally assumed to be a metaphorical representation of his destiny from his early childhood. This might very well be the case. But it could also possibly mean him dying and his infant son becoming the king of Malkier. Of course that would mean that he needs to get Nynaeve pregnant first and that hasn't happened yet.

[Terez]

8. Great Battle=Caemlyn would explain why Nicola's Foretelling seems to suggest that the Aes Sedai and the Asha'man are finally united. With the land still divided by the Return, that explains why the Last Battle hasn't been won yet - 'the two must be as one' - and why it is so important for Rand to be resurrected - 'the future teeters on the edge of a blade'.

I never understood that part of your argument. The foretelling says "the guardians balance the servants". It doesn't look to me like it says that the Aes Sedai and the Aha'man are united. It would seem to say the opposite - that they are divided but balance each other out.

It's several things:

 

1. Balance is one of the main themes of the series, along with men and women working together. We saw big foreshadowings of this in TOM, with Pevara and Androl, and with the circles in Perrin's camp, not only for the hammer, but also for gateways and such. The Seanchan can't use linking.

2. The 'great battle' is done, which probably means Caemlyn. That suggests that the Black Tower has been dealt with. This is probably the subject of Elaida's Foretelling.

3. At the point of Nicola's Foretelling, Rand has already died. Egwene's dream of Logain suggests that he will rise to power over the Asha'man when Rand dies, which fits with 3.

4. Since Logain and Egwene are already great friends, it only makes sense that they would team up against the Seanchan, since the land is still divided by the Return. The whole point (from a plotting perspective) of having Rand die without having fulfilled the prophecies is so that people will be forced to take personal responsibility for the Last Battle.

[RushavMohanty]

8. Great Battle=Caemlyn would explain why Nicola's Foretelling seems to suggest that the Aes Sedai and the Asha'man are finally united. With the land still divided by the Return, that explains why the Last Battle hasn't been won yet - 'the two must be as one' - and why it is so important for Rand to be resurrected - 'the future teeters on the edge of a blade'.

I never understood that part of your argument. The foretelling says "the guardians balance the servants". It doesn't look to me like it says that the Aes Sedai and the Aha'man are united. It would seem to say the opposite - that they are divided but balance each other out.

It's several things:

 

1. Balance is one of the main themes of the series, along with men and women working together. We saw big foreshadowings of this in TOM, with Pevara and Androl, and with the circles in Perrin's camp, not only for the hammer, but also for gateways and such. The Seanchan can't use linking.

2. The 'great battle' is done, which probably means Caemlyn. That suggests that the Black Tower has been dealt with. This is probably the subject of Elaida's Foretelling.

3. At the point of Nicola's Foretelling, Rand has already died. Egwene's dream of Logain suggests that he will rise to power over the Asha'man when Rand dies, which fits with 3.

4. Since Logain and Egwene are already great friends, it only makes sense that they would team up against the Seanchan, since the land is still divided by the Return. The whole point (from a plotting perspective) of having Rand die without having fulfilled the prophecies is so that people will be forced to take personal responsibility for the Last Battle.

 

Hmm. I don't know. I think the balance referred to here is more along the lines of attaining the balance between male and female Aes Sedai in terms of authority. Like what existed in the Age of Legends. And like the Age of Legends it doesn't mean they have to be unified. After all Latra Posae Decume did pass a motion called the Fateful Concord that barred any Sister who signed it from participating with Lews Therin's plans to seal the Bore and also pledged them to oppose his plans. This is very similar to what Egwene is doing in the Third Age (as some call it).

[Terez]

Hmm. I don't know. I think the balance referred to here is more along the lines of attaining the balance between male and female Aes Sedai in terms of authority. Like what existed in the Age of Legends. And like the Age of Legends it doesn't mean they have to be unified.

I think you guys might be taking 'unified' too literally here. All I mean is that they are going to be on the same team and more or less working together, first against the Seanchan (which might come to battle itself), and then against whatever is left after they've taken out a bunch of baddies in Caemlyn. I'm guessing some will escape once doom becomes inevitable in order to buttress the Shadowspawn attacks in other places. But I don't think it was accidental that it fell to Egwene to make the call on Logain in Salidar.

[herid]

Hmm. I don't know. I think the balance referred to here is more along the lines of attaining the balance between male and female Aes Sedai in terms of authority. Like what existed in the Age of Legends. And like the Age of Legends it doesn't mean they have to be unified.

I think you guys might be taking 'unified' too literally here. All I mean is that they are going to be on the same team and more or less working together, first against the Seanchan (which might come to battle itself), and then against whatever is left after they've taken out a bunch of baddies in Caemlyn. I'm guessing some will escape once doom becomes inevitable in order to buttress the Shadowspawn attacks in other places. But I don't think it was accidental that it fell to Egwene to make the call on Logain in Salidar.

That's all sounds very plausible but I still find the phrasing of the balance part in the foretelling ill fitting for such a scenario.

[Terez]

Okay.