Birgitte's arrow

[Luckers]

Ok, so there has been discussion in the past about whether Birgitte breaking the precepts in involving herself with the living actually destroyed some form of mystical protection that the Heroes have under the Precepts, or whether breaking the precepts simply put her in danger because she was doing dangerous things, which the precepts generally guide Heroes away from doing.

 

There has never been any conclusive evidence one way or another, Gaidal's comments just aren't clear enough, but consider--the arrow was the instrument by which Birgitte was truly going to break the precepts--it would be the thing which struck Moghedien, killed one of the living, and if Birgitte had been skirting the line earlier, that act would have crossed it utterly.

 

If so, then the arrow would be the instrument by which Birgitte was exposed to Moghedien's wrath. Yes the bow sent it, but the arrow itself would have been what did the dead, what broke the precepts.

 

And as such, perhaps that is why it went through where the clothes and so forth did not.

[herid]

Ok, so there has been discussion in the past about whether Birgitte breaking the precepts in involving herself with the living actually destroyed some form of mystical protection that the Heroes have under the Precepts, or whether breaking the precepts simply put her in danger because she was doing dangerous things, which the precepts generally guide Heroes away from doing.

 

There has never been any conclusive evidence one way or another, Gaidal's comments just aren't clear enough, but consider--the arrow was the instrument by which Birgitte was truly going to break the precepts--it would be the thing which struck Moghedien, killed one of the living, and if Birgitte had been skirting the line earlier, that act would have crossed it utterly.

 

If so, then the arrow would be the instrument by which Birgitte was exposed to Moghedien's wrath. Yes the bow sent it, but the arrow itself would have been what did the dead, what broke the precepts.

 

And as such, perhaps that is why it went through where the clothes and so forth did not.

That's an interesting idea but I find this explanation highly unlikely. The arrow was not sent yet. just the intent of sending the arrow having a major effect on its properties in TAR is not something I can buy.

[Luckers]

Why? Intent is what defines everything in TAR. Your will is the basis of your ability to act at all.

[herid]

Why? Intent is what defines everything in TAR. Your will is the basis of your ability to act at all.

yes, the will is the basis of your ability but it usually means specific conscious effort to achieve some goal. Birgitte is not mentally trying to change the arrow in any way. This is different from Nynaeve thinking up an a'dam on Moggy's neck or from Mesaana thinking up a room in the foundation of the White Tower. Birgitte just wants to shoot the arrow at Moggy, not do anything weird to the arrow itself.

 

In order for your idea to work we really have to assume a lot.

First, we have to believe that violating precepts changes things in TAR in fundamental way and it not only effects people but whatever objects they used in violating the precepts. This is already a very large assumption not supported by evidence, especially the latter part. Gaidal never said anything like that when he talked about consequences of violating the precepts. Second, we have to assume that there is some kind of oracle enforcement mechanism that not only can effect things that have already been used in violating the precepts but those that somebody is only thinking of using in the future for the same purpose. In effect, this judges somebody (and the tools they want to use) guilty of violating the precepts for merely intending to do it. Furthermore, in order to avoid potential infinite repeat loops producing unlimited number of copies of something out of nothing in real world we need to make an extra assumption that only the first object used to truly violate the precepts is fundamentally changed in some way which allows it to be pushed out of TAR. In fact, there is a problem right there because Birgitte already wounded Moggy with one arrow and the arrow under discussion is the second one she wanted to use. Birgitte definitely wanted to kill Moggy with the first arrow. The fact that she didn't was not because of any lack of effort on her part, so the first arrow would have to have the same properties as the first one according to your theory. Presumably that means that Birgitte can think up new arrows, think of using them on Moggy and then have them pushed out of TAR, say by Nynaeve. All of this might be technically consistent with the rules of the WoT universe (although I'm not quite sure on that) but even so I find the whole thing much too much to swallow, especially in the presence of a far simpler alternative explanation. I do think it's a clever idea (I certainly never thought of anything like that myself), I just don't think it the correct explanation in this case.

[mb]

Gaidal did not specify any consequences (for breaking the precepts); nor has any character up through Gathering Storm.

[herid]

Gaidal did not specify any consequences (for breaking the precepts); nor has any character up through Gathering Storm.

he did say that nothing but trouble and strife ever came from breaking the precepts.

Cain ignored Nynaeve as though she did not exist. “The precepts exist for a reason, Birgitte. Nothing but strife and trouble has ever come from breaking them.”

tSR, Ch 52

This does indicate that breaking the precepts lead to some unpleasant results in the past. Gaidal did not say anything specific about what happened but one might speculate. Luckers was suggesting that maybe breaking the precepts leads to some real changes to people and objects involved. This is definitely something of a stretch but I could possibly accept it. It's his further ideas about what exactly those changes might entail in the situation with Birgitte's arrow that I have problems with.