Tuon needs to go down!

[Ihasavowel]

 

 

It's not myth lol. After Hawkwing fell, Ishmael sent darkfriend woman channelers calling themselves Aes Sedai across the ocean to Seandar that did the very things you say they didn't. Those woman channelers in Seanchan calling themselves Aes Sedai did try to put everyone in Seadar underneath them simply because they could channel. The result was the Seanchan took a no tolerance stance towards this and put leashes around their neck.

 

The same thing happened in Randland, it's just outside of Hawkwing, Randlanders leaders were all docile sheep in the face of woman that could channel calling themselves Aes Sedai. Randlanders leaders stance is exactly what Dyelin says in some book that stands out which was, "To listen to Aes Sedai is not to follow".

Sure it is a myth. Perhaps you misunderstand what is being referred to as a myth since you seem to think that I had claimed something entirely different had not happened.

 

I knew that Ishy arranged for Hawkwing to send his son across the ocean before Hawkwing fell, and I understood that those who called themselves Aes Sedai in Seander were already there and engaged in their power struggles when Hawkwing's son arrived. Perhaps one of us is misremembering? But in either case, it's neither here nor there.

 

If it were not a myth then everyone in the Westlands would be the property of the White Tower, and everyone in the waste would be the property of the Wise Ones.

 

The same thing has not happened in the Westlands. If Aes Sedai and/or the Tower owned everyone in the Westlands, it would not have ever been illegal to channel in Tear, and Aes Sedai could freely and openly enter Amadacia whenever they felt so inclined.

 

The fact remains that channellers have been free in the Westlands for thousands of years, and the notion of people as property is alien to the Westlands. Meanwhile, those who can knowingly channel in Seander are enslaved without exception, and the notion of people as property is native to that culture. If this does not prove that the notion "if channelers are allowed to be free they will inevitably make everyone else their property" is a myth to you, then I can only suggest your standard of proof is possibly ridiculous.

 

How many more thousands of years of free channelers not turning everyone in the Westlands into their property would be needed to satisfy you that this is a myth?

[EmeraldCastrol]

There is a big difference, especially for the Seanchan, with intellectually knowing you can channel and actually feeling the one power source through your veins. Of course Tuon, when told that suldam have the same ability as their damane, would choose not to. If you were a human and told that you could be a dog, and considering the way humans view dogs, would you really choose to be a dog??

 

That said, the Seanchan are too strong a force that if the problem of damane isn't resolved, I don't see how the groups can ally together for Tarmon Gai'don. So somehow, Tuon has to actually physically channel and by accident, and I can't imagine how that will come about.

 

WOT better have a good ending or else I'll feel so cheated.

[Ihasavowel]

There is a big difference, especially for the Seanchan, with intellectually knowing you can channel and actually feeling the one power source through your veins. Of course Tuon, when told that suldam have the same ability as their damane, would choose not to. If you were a human and told that you could be a dog, and considering the way humans view dogs, would you really choose to be a dog??

 

 

If I knew humans were being treated like dogs, and the only moral justification for this was that anyone with a capability they have would turn everyone else into leashed animals if they were not controlled, and I found out that I have such a capability, as do all suldam throughout the Empire, and can simply choose to not use it, I would have no recourse but to consider the moral justification null and void.

 

I would have to ask myself why this little canard "if we do not leash them as animals, they will inevitably leash us all as animals" would be true. My first thought would be that power corrupts, but that does not work here because suldam and the owners of damane who give suldam their orders, effectively have the power that could cause unleashed channelers to force everyone else into a leash.

 

The only explanation that leaves is that the capacity to channel changes one's personality so that those who can channel, unlike suldam and owners of damane, would inevitably leash/own others if they had opportunity to do so. When I found out I had exactly that capacity myself (and in fact all suldam do), and did not consider that my personality made it inevitable that I would leash everyone as some kind of animal (and further noted that suldam had done this in the Empire, and even further still that no one in the Westlands even thought owning people was possible until my crew showed up on the scene), then I would be forced to conclude that it is all so much nonsense, and that anyone who can channel is no more inclined to enslave everyone, than anyone who cannot channel.

 

Of course this is a very uncomfortable and inconvenient truth for someone in Tuon's position, which might explain why an intelligent woman in her position would choose wilful ignorance and prefer to not think on this issue in any way that is likely to lead to a rational conclusion. "I choose not to" is absurd morally. Does she really think that 15 year old girls choose to have the potential to channel, even where this means inevitably becomming a damane? What has choice got to do with the issue morally, when it must be very clear to Tuon, that marath damane in Seander made no choice to channel?

[gambril]

There is a big difference, especially for the Seanchan, with intellectually knowing you can channel and actually feeling the one power source through your veins. Of course Tuon, when told that suldam have the same ability as their damane, would choose not to. If you were a human and told that you could be a dog, and considering the way humans view dogs, would you really choose to be a dog??

 

 

If I knew humans were being treated like dogs, and the only moral justification for this was that anyone with a capability they have would turn everyone else into leashed animals if they were not controlled, and I found out that I have such a capability, as do all suldam throughout the Empire, and can simply choose to not use it, I would have no recourse but to consider the moral justification null and void.

 

I would have to ask myself why this little canard "if we do not leash them as animals, they will inevitably leash us all as animals" would be true. My first thought would be that power corrupts, but that does not work here because suldam and the owners of damane who give suldam their orders, effectively have the power that could cause unleashed channelers to force everyone else into a leash.

 

The only explanation that leaves is that the capacity to channel changes one's personality so that those who can channel, unlike suldam and owners of damane, would inevitably leash/own others if they had opportunity to do so. When I found out I had exactly that capacity myself (and in fact all suldam do), and did not consider that my personality made it inevitable that I would leash everyone as some kind of animal (and further noted that suldam had done this in the Empire, and even further still that no one in the Westlands even thought owning people was possible until my crew showed up on the scene), then I would be forced to conclude that it is all so much nonsense, and that anyone who can channel is no more inclined to enslave everyone, than anyone who cannot channel.

 

Of course this is a very uncomfortable and inconvenient truth for someone in Tuon's position, which might explain why an intelligent woman in her position would choose wilful ignorance and prefer to not think on this issue in any way that is likely to lead to a rational conclusion. "I choose not to" is absurd morally. Does she really think that 15 year old girls choose to have the potential to channel, even where this means inevitably becomming a damane? What has choice got to do with the issue morally, when it must be very clear to Tuon, that marath damane in Seander made no choice to channel?

 

The reason Tuon chooses willfull denial of the facts is that she equates channeling to being a damane. This isn't true of course, but there it is.

 

In order for her to question herself rationally on this issue as you suggest leads to conclusions she doesn't want to think about - the downfall of her Empire in it's current form.

[Ihasavowel]

 

 

The reason Tuon chooses willfull denial of the facts is that she equates channeling to being a damane. This isn't true of course, but there it is.

 

In order for her to question herself rationally on this issue as you suggest leads to conclusions she doesn't want to think about - the downfall of her Empire in it's current form.

Which brings us back to evil little troll.

 

She is a very nasty piece of work if she can have used an a'dam, even nursing to back to health a damane who probably would have otherwise died from the stress and misery she was placed in, and not understand what a very miserable and horrific thing it is to make someone damane. That kind of life for hundreds of years on end.....

 

She is a very nasty piece of work if having been confronted with the fact that suldam can channel, and that she can channel, and that it is just an accident of birth that she has a choice about channelling, and having some inkling of what a miserable and horrific thing it is to be damane for centuries on end, she does not fully and objectively examine the whole damane business.

 

Wilful ignorance about such matters, for the sake of self-comfort and one's own convenience, is morally repulsive, and the actions of a nasty piece of work, (aka an evil little troll).

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

I cannot wait till Toun figures out that she can channel.

 

Any thoughts on what she will do when she figures it out?

 

I hope she gets collared!

That already happened a few books ago. More exactly she learned she can be taught to channel and accepted it, but said she chose not to do it, and that made all the difference.

Which goes to show what a silly little troll she is.

 

She knows she can learn to channel, and further, that she can and does control the same power that damane are not to be trusted with (every time she uses the a'dam on some unfortunate damane).

 

The justification of damane is that if channeling women could run free they would make everyone property. So this twit goes to a land where the Aes Sedai (and other channellers) run free, and the people who live there have not heard of and cannot easily conceive of the notion "people as property", while her damane infested Empire has people as property in every direction....oh and some owned Ogier for good measure.

 

Then she finds out that everyone who has the ability and opportunity to wield the very power that make damane dangerous, are in fact themselves able to channel.

 

If being able to have the power that comes with channeling, makes it inevitable that everyone else will be made property, then this is the case whether or not the channeller controls that power, or some other human does. So the whole damane thing required everyone tell themselves a big fat lie; "channellers are so different from us and similar to each other, that while anyone but them can weild their power through them, without making everyone property, they themselves would turn everyone into property if they could weild their own power". Now everyone in Seanchan might have convinced themselves this lie is actually a truth, but Tuon now knows that she can channel, even if she chooses not to, and Tuon knows that suldam can all channel, that all suldam routinely weild the power, and yet suldam are not making everyone in sight property either.

 

So Tuon knows someone can have the capacity to channel without turning everyone into property and generally being evil. She knows that people can weild the power concerned (and has done so herself) and is happy for people to weild this power in the form of Suldam and people who own damane. Meanwhile, she knows that even though the myth among her people is that if channellers are allowed to roam free, they will make everyone property and no one but them would be free, yet her Empire where they may not roam free is riddled with owned people, and where channellers roam free, there is no such thing as owned people, and people do not readily understand even the concept of people as property.

 

Tuon knows that damane live a miserable life for hundreds of years, and she knows very well that she can channel, and weild the power damane are forbidden from using in their own right (but which is casually handed to suldam), and further that she is more comfortable with the idea of owning people than any Westlands channeller she has encountered. She is not a stupid a woman and if she chooses to not see that the whole damane system is wrong and evil at this point, then she is making a choice to be ignorant, and she is making that choice because it happens to be convenient and easy for her.

 

It's not myth lol. After Hawkwing fell, Ishmael sent darkfriend woman channelers calling themselves Aes Sedai across the ocean to Seandar that did the very things you say they didn't. Those woman channelers in Seanchan calling themselves Aes Sedai did try to put everyone in Seadar underneath them simply because they could channel. The result was the Seanchan took a no tolerance stance towards this and put leashes around their neck.

 

The same thing happened in Randland, it's just outside of Hawkwing, Randlanders leaders were all docile sheep in the face of woman that could channel calling themselves Aes Sedai. Randlanders leaders stance is exactly what Dyelin says in some book that stands out which was, "To listen to Aes Sedai is not to follow".

 

Go back and read the Guide again. You obviously didn't understand it. The Aes Sedai were ALREADY there. Ishamael sent Hawking's SON over the Aryth Ocean, not the Black Ajah Aes Sedai.

 

How anyone could misunderstand this is beyond me.