Q from waaay in the past: Failure to recognize Forsaken

[stonefly]

Hey guys. Long-time fan and Dragonmount lurker, but first post. And I apologize if this has been asked a hundred times before.....

 

I have a question that goes waaay back in the series to EOTW, TGH, and TDR. I started re-reading for the 3rd time and noticed something weird. Despite the fact that Rand et al. meet (and kill) Aginor and Balthamel in EOTW, why does no one seem to believe that the Forsaken are loose until halfway through TDR? It seems pretty clear who Ag and Balth are, and Nynaeve even has Aginor in her ter'angreal trip during her Accepted ceremony. So why does everyone seem so surprised and dubious that the Forsaken are loose until Morirane finally confirms that Sammael and Be'lal are in Illian and Tear on into TDR?

[didymos]

So why does everyone seem so surprised and dubious that the Forsaken are loose until Morirane finally confirms that Sammael and Be'lal are in Illian and Tear on into TDR?

 

Who's this "everyone"? Most of those in Rand's immediate circle are quite convinced that at least some of the Forsaken have been released. All I recall is that people not in the Dragon club are often skeptical, but it's just about as often made clear that they're really just hoping it's not true. Yeah, there are instances with the principals where someone will ask "Ya sure about that?" in regards to a particular Forsaken, but they pretty much always end up convinced when they hear "Yep. I'm sure. It's [Forsaken X]." Also, the simple truth is, plenty of people continue to refuse to admit that, for example, Lord Brend is really Sammael right up to ACoS (and even beyond), so there is in fact no point at which everyone magically starts accepting the Forsaken are loose (and certainly not simply because Moiraine said so).

[Sid]

if by everyone you mean all the non-main characters, they have no way of knowing that the Forsaken are loose. Moiraine, being Aes Sedai, tells perhaps a handful of people of her exploits in the blight at most.

 

if you include the main characters, most immediately think of the saying 'the Forsaken are bound in Shayol Ghul' but then kind of snap out of it. It's what they've been told their entire lives and it's kind of a knee-jerk reaction IMO.

[stonefly]

So why does everyone seem so surprised and dubious that the Forsaken are loose until Morirane finally confirms that Sammael and Be'lal are in Illian and Tear on into TDR?

 

Who's this "everyone"? Most of those in Rand's immediate circle are quite convinced that at least some of the Forsaken have been released.

 

 

I don't think you're right about that. Go back through the first couple of books and there are lots of examples of where the main characters do not believe that Forsaken are loose. I pretty much thought the same thing as you until I just re-read them all and it was pretty clear that any time the idea of a Forsaken being loose came up, it was dismissed until Perrin mentions Lanfear to Morirane which she meets with skepticism but later comes to think might be true. It just seems really odd to me that nobody ever says, "Ya know, they probably are loose since we've already seen 2 of them".

[Luckers]

What Moiraine is doing is maintaining a healthy dose of skepticism. Having encountered two of the Forsaken its not unreasonable that Perrin was having nightmares about them. Nor is it necessarily indicative that the others are free--remember Moiraine was aware Aginor and Balthamel were trapped near the surface, and were freed first, so she knows there is a progression.

 

That is in large what you were seeing, Moiraine's knowledge of that progression. She is aware that the Forsaken could all be free, but doesn't wish to start jumping at shadows. It's, in my opinion, a healthy way to face the most feared people in all history. And from her that cautious skepticism spread, which I don't really see as a bad thing.

[didymos]

So why does everyone seem so surprised and dubious that the Forsaken are loose until Morirane finally confirms that Sammael and Be'lal are in Illian and Tear on into TDR?

 

Who's this "everyone"? Most of those in Rand's immediate circle are quite convinced that at least some of the Forsaken have been released.

 

 

I don't think you're right about that. Go back through the first couple of books and there are lots of examples of where the main characters do not believe that Forsaken are loose. I pretty much thought the same thing as you until I just re-read them all and it was pretty clear that any time the idea of a Forsaken being loose came up, it was dismissed until Perrin mentions Lanfear to Morirane which she meets with skepticism but later comes to think might be true. It just seems really odd to me that nobody ever says, "Ya know, they probably are loose since we've already seen 2 of them".

 

Umm, what? Here's the first time Perrin ever mentions Lanfear to Moiraine (pg 345, US Hardback, bolding mine):

 

"Only you said maybe some of the Forsaken are free, and he called her Lanfear and. . . . Is it important, or am I standing here making a fool out of myself?"

 

She then goes on to discuss Wolfbrother stuff, Dreamers, and the importance of not bringing this up in front of Red sisters, or pretty much anybody if Perrin can help it, but never once does she say she doesn't believe him about Lanfear or that the wolf dream is merely a dream of the normal variety (kinda difficult to do given that Perrin is bleeding from a tooth mark he got in said wolf dream). She simply refuses to tell him her plans, or get into the details, which is par for the course. It's extremely obvious from her reaction in that scene that she thinks there's something to these dreams and that they are anything but normal, but isn't completely sure what that is or what they are (i.e., that they're actually T'A'R, or closely related to it, something she clearly suspects, given that she's an Aes Sedai, but doesn't feel the need to explain to Perrin, also given that she's an Aes Sedai) . Discovering Sammael in Illian simply confirmed it for her beyond doubt, at which point she tells Perrin "Yep, those dreams are definitely real. Also: we're leaving. Like, you know, now." And, as the bolded bit shows, Moiraine herself had done the very opposite of dismissing the possibility that the Forsaken were loose. Perrin even says so again a page later.