the aiel meaning

[nolirion]

I that kind of my first post .

I am wondering for quiet some time now , the whole thing with the aiel people .

 

The word aiel in the old tongue means dedicated and with the memory our dear dragon shared with us we had a glimpse of what they had been in the age of legend.

They where pretty much like the servant of the original aes'sedai (servant of the servant of all kind of ^^) , doing farm labour and other stuff.

 

But still a privileged people protected by the status of the aes'sedai , both after and before Mierin free your master .

 

In this age where violence was not fit or perhaps I will say  violence was no need , they seemed pretty much fine with the way of the leaf .

 

But after the breaking and like the wise one said the Three-fold Land was meant to forged the aiel to a duty to come .

 

I come to my question don't throw balefire at me yet , could the aiel be a people dedicated to the will of the creator or pretty much of the pattern ?

The term soldier will be unfit but it is pretty much their status to me and the sentence they said about never giving up the fight against the dark one .

I Wright this in a rush and that pretty much just a start

 

 

[farthammer]

Unless there was a specific situation where a more nuanced answer is needed, you could simply say the Aiel are dedicated to the pattern because they exist within it and by implication the creator as well.

[FarShainMael]

There are two things to think about here.

 

The Aiel call themselves by a secret name, 'the people of the Dragon'.

 

In Book 5, 'The Fires of Heaven', we meet some of the Aiel who have taken to wearing red headbands. This is to show that they think of themselves as 'Spears of the Dragon'.

 

So the Aiel in general, and this group in particular, are devoted to the Dragon. The Dragon is the Champion of the Light, that is, he fights the Creator's battle against the Dark One. And the Aiel help him.

 

So yes, they are a people dedicated to the will of the Creator.

 

 

[Hadilmir]

FarShainMael, the Aiel are dedicated to the Wheel and thus the Dragon (Works vice-versa just as easily), not the Creator. The Dragon fights for the Wheel's continuance, not for the Creator. Since there appear to only be two powers at work, the Creator and the Dark One, the Dragon is generally associated as a force for the Light by occlusion unless he turns to the Shadow. It isn't that the Dragon is a pious figure who communes with the Creator, but the fact that if the Dragon fights the Dark One then he appears to be on the Creator's side.

[FarShainMael]

Hadilmir, recall the 'voice' in Ch 51 of tEotW, which is called 'Against the Shadow'. Rand quivers with 'the Light that suffused him'. Throughout the battle, first with Aginor and then in and above the mountain pass, a clear distinction is drawn, again and again, between light and the Light. The 'forces of the Dark One filled the other end of the pass'. Lightning comes, bringing the 'terrible heat of the Light'. Then we hear the Voice:

 

'I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL.'

 

This whole chapter is about the Light, and the forces of the Light, and the champion of the Light, fighting the Shadow, the forces of the Dark One. The Wheel, as such, doesn't get a mention. The chapter is called 'Against the Shadow', not 'Keep the Wheel turning'.

 

Yes, indirectly, the Dragon's victory would ensure the continuance of the Wheel, the Creator's creation.

 

If he turned to the Shadow, what would be the result? Has he ever turned to the Shadow in a previous existence?

 

People mostly think that would mean the Wheel would stop, the Pattern would be destroyed. Is there any indication the Shadow would want the Wheel to continue?

 

[Hadilmir]

...Are you saying that Rand was channeling the Creator and not Saidin? "The Light" is quite clearly referring to Saidin. I'm really not following you here since the second part of your post reinforces my post. Rand is not the Creator's champion. If you take the voice to be the Creator then you have the Creator saying he will not directly interfere like the Dark One and leave Rand's struggle to him, a human, within the Wheel. The Creator does not own Rand, Rand is a tossed coin with the Creator's side weighted, but still with a chance to land Dark One side up. So Rand as a living creature favors the Creator, but that doesn't make him the Creator's champion.

 

RJ has said the Dragon has fought for the Shadow before.  ;)

[FarShainMael]

No, he was communing with the Light. Nowhere in ANY of the books have we seen the word 'Light' refer to saidin.

 

Rand was described as the Chosen One. That makes him the Creator's champion. (Unless you think the Voice meant someone else, or indeed was someone else.)

 

RJ has said the Dragon has fought for the Shadow before. ;)

 

Please find a quote from RJ to support this, being very attentive to what his actual words were. And bear in mind that if the Dragon has ended up fighting for the Shadow, he still starts out as the Creator's champion:

 

'Yet one shall be born to face the Shadow, born once more as he was born before and shall be born again, time without end. ' - The Karaethon Cycle

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/prophecies/karaethon.html

 

 

 

[Hadilmir]

No, he was communing with the Light. Nowhere in ANY of the books have we seen the word 'Light' refer to saidin.

...If you've missed the several thousands times that Saidin/Saidar is compared to the sun then I might suggest you recheck the title of the series you're reading.  :P

 

Rand was described as the Chosen One. That makes him the Creator's champion. (Unless you think the Voice meant someone else, or indeed was someone else.)

The Wheel could have chose him. The Creator, being the ultimate non-interventionist, is just stating his belief that he trusts the Wheel (Humanity included) to defeat the Dark One and doesn't need to cheat.

 

Please find a quote from RJ to support this, being very attentive to what his actual words were. And bear in mind that if the Dragon has ended up fighting for the Shadow, he still starts out as the Creator's champion:

 

Doesn't get much clearer than this-

Q: Was Ishamael lying when he told Rand that the hero of the Light had turned to Shadow in other lifetimes?

 

RJ: No, he was not. Even those who lie sometimes tell the truth when it serves their purposes.

Unless you want to argue on my behalf and say that since I insist Rand isn't the Hero of Light then the quote means nothing... But then you've given up your argument.

[FarShainMael]

No, he was communing with the Light. Nowhere in ANY of the books have we seen the word 'Light' refer to saidin.

...If you've missed the several thousands times that Saidin/Saidar is compared to the sun then I might suggest you recheck the title of the series you're reading.  :P

 

That's Light, not light.

 

Rand was described as the Chosen One. That makes him the Creator's champion. (Unless you think the Voice meant someone else, or indeed was someone else.)

The Wheel could have chose him. The Creator, being the ultimate non-interventionist, is just stating his belief that he trusts the Wheel (Humanity included) to defeat the Dark One and doesn't need to cheat.

 

'could have'? But did It?

 

Please find a quote from RJ to support this, being very attentive to what his actual words were. And bear in mind that if the Dragon has ended up fighting for the Shadow, he still starts out as the Creator's champion:

 

Doesn't get much clearer than this-

Q: Was Ishamael lying when he told Rand that the hero of the Light had turned to Shadow in other lifetimes?

 

RJ: No, he was not. Even those who lie sometimes tell the truth when it serves their purposes.

Unless you want to argue on my behalf and say that since I insist Rand isn't the Hero of Light then the quote means nothing... But then you've given up your argument.

 

This is what RJ referred to:

 

From LoC Ch 6, 'Threads woven of shadow'

 

Samael PoV:

 

Ishamael had died mad, true, but even when he was still sane, back when it

seemed they surely would drive LTT to defeat, he claimed this struggle had

been going on since the Creation, an endless war between the GL and the

Creator using human surrogates. More, he avowed that the GL would almost as

soon have turned LT to the Shadow as have broken free. Maybe Ishamael had

been a little mad then, too, but there had been efforts to turn LT. And

Ishamael said that it had happened in the past, the Creator's champion made

a creature of the Shadow and raised up as the Shadow's champion.'

 

Ishamael was talking about the Creator's champion being turned. NOT the Wheel's champion.

 

I will take no further part in this discussion, as you have provided no evidence to support your position, against all the evidence statements for Rand/LTT/all-previous-incarnations being the Creator's champion. Other forum members and lurkers will decide for themselves about the matter.

 

[Tel Janin]

@ nolirion:

 

When Rand & entourage reach the Three-Fold Land, Moiraine has an Old Tongue 'discussion' with the Wise Ones regarding the meaing of the name 'Aiel', as well as "Jenn Aiel" and other terms.  I don't remember the discussion verbatim, but I believe the jist of it was that 'Aiel' meant 'Dedicated', but like a dedication down to the very bones.

 

I've always interpreted it to mean that the Aiel, who served the Aes Sedai (Servants of All), were dedicated to All, i.e. their fellow man.

 

Of course, that's just my opinion.  I could be wrong.  ;D

[Hadilmir]

Please excuse this post; I'm not in the best of moods and FarShainMael's post seems designed to incite me to retaliate, so I'm taking the bait.

 

 

-That's not what RJ was referring to at all, please note the 'Rand' in my quote. My quote was talking about the events in tGH. They say close enough to the same thing anyway, but I thought I'd point that out.

 

'could have'? But did It?

-I don't even know what to say to this, the only thing I can think of is something equally childish: Nuh-uh.

 

-If you suddenly were surrounded by a radiant light you would immediately think divinity, that is a human reaction. RJ plays on most of the characters' assumptions being wrong way too much for the capitalization of 'light' to mean anything.

 

-I generally don't like providing proof because someone who already thinks I'm wrong will usually try to twist my proof and then convince themselves they're even more right. From my standpoint, you're too set on what you see to even consider something else. I've thought hard on the Dragon being the Creator's Champion and I found it lacking.

 

1. RJ has never to my knowledge called Rand/Lews Therin/The Dragon the Creator's Champion, he simply let's it slide when other people say it.

 

2. Several times Moiraine said that the Wheel only allowed one Dragon Reborn, and RJ has said the battle between Rand and Ishmael over Falme was a 'pattern-level event'. Seems odd that the Wheel should have so much power over the supposed Creator's Champion.

 

3. Every thing is balanced, Rand's Ta'veren nature implies he is balanced as well. Note how the Ta'veren effects turned bad when he began sinking towards Evil. As the Champion of Light there should be an inverse effect, but we haven't seen that anywhere, even when he trying to do Good.

 

4. The Sha'rah Fisher King is neutral, I always think of that Chapter as one of the most important in tPoD. I don't think Sha'rah was just thrown in for world-building; I see it as an overly simplified explanation of the WoT's metaphysics.

 

I'm open to being wrong, but I really haven't seen any more proof for Rand being the Creator's Champion than the Wheel's Champion, less proof really. Those last two sentences come off really arrogant, they're the main reason I replied; but I guess that's the end of this discussion unless you go back on your word.

[MaidenOfTheSpear]

I have always believed that they were servants to the Aes Sedai but that they are now dedicated not to the Dragon Reborn but rather to the Car'a'carn. And i highly doubt that Rand is a champion of the Creator... maybe the Pattern! But not the Creator! Because he does have a choice between Dark and Light...

[Tel Janin]

I have always believed that they were servants to the Aes Sedai but that they are now dedicated not to the Dragon Reborn but rather to the Car'a'carn. And i highly doubt that Rand is a champion of the Creator... maybe the Pattern! But not the Creator! Because he does have a choice between Dark and Light...

 

The same thing could be argued about any of the Forsaken.  They also have a choice.  In EotW, Rand was dimed out as the "Chosen One" by the big voice, currently assumed to be the Creator.  I think that speaks volumes about who's champ he is...

 

My two coppers...

[Hadilmir]

In EotW, Rand was dimed out as the "Chosen One" by the big voice, currently assumed to be the Creator.  I think that speaks volumes about who's champ he is...

Except anyone can call anyone "Chosen One"... For example, have you ever seen The Matrix? Everyone calls Neo "Chosen One" but none of them chose him. It speaks absolutely nothing about who's champion Rand is.  :-\

[Tel Janin]

In EotW, Rand was dimed out as the "Chosen One" by the big voice, currently assumed to be the Creator.  I think that speaks volumes about who's champ he is...

Except anyone can call anyone "Chosen One"... For example, have you ever seen The Matrix? Everyone calls Neo "Chosen One" but none of them chose him. It speaks absolutely nothing about who's champion Rand is.  :-\

 

Except, and this is my opinion, it wasn't just 'anyone' doing the calling.  It was (arguably, but barely so) the Creator.  In the Matrix, there was no "big deific voice" naming Neo the Chosen One.  It was all just regular folk.

 

My two coppers...

[Kierkegaurdian]

In the Shadow Rising, in one of Rand's musings, he thinks to himself that the Aiel are dedicated to peace, based on their past revealed to him in Rhuidean.  Whether or not it is true, (it might be another example of his misunderstanding Aiel culture) it is another option to look at.