Brandon's Confusion About Cyndane's Strength. (Full Spoilers)

[Luckers]

So, the was a bit of confusion about Cyndane's strength in the signing question and answers session. Here is the Q&A and Brandon's later clarification.

 

Question: I asked about [Cyndane's] strength in the OP.

 

Answer: Brandon says she’s very, very weak. This surprised me since I didn’t think she was that weak.

 

6. CLARIFICATION: [brandon on Twitter] Okay, time to post about Cyndane for you Theorylanders. I have been discussing with Maria all day. She and I have different opinions on some things in the notes, but she has convinced me that she is right. I believed that there were some issues with her Power level—the Dark One playing tricks to keep everyone guessing—but Maria convinced me her Power really is what it seems. So you can disregard my comment about her being really, really weak and stick with the word I used earlier—"weakened."  This is what you get for asking about things that we are still picking apart the notes regarding.

 

Matt: ...exactly…he was transmigrated into a different body, but still channeling the same power the soul inherits. So considering Jordan's statement about stilling and burning out not affecting the channeling ability of the new life of a soul, is the same for the new life of a soul transmigrated?

 

Brandon: I’m going to say that transmigrated…if you were burned out and transmigrated you would still be burned out, is my guess.

 

Matt: Is that a MAFO question? Or…

 

Brandon: ...that is my guess and you can MAFO it if you want to send it to me, but that is a “I’m pretty sure” answer.

 

Matt: You saw where we were going…

 

Brandon: ...yes, I see where you are going…

 

Matt: ...I had to do the build up to it because it all comes down to that one question for a couple of things.

 

Brandon: This one question you are going to ask next?

 

Matt: I’m not going to ask it…

 

Brandon: ...oh, the one you asked…

 

Matt: ...yeah, I guess I asked a piece of it last night…

 

Brandon: ...when it comes to this certain character that you are talking about, there is a whole thing where Maria and I exchanged a bunch of emails about this. She had managed to pull some things out of the notes that I had not seen, which is interesting, because I was going off of something else. I did not think that Cyndane should be nearly as powerful as she was put in the books as being, so I had been under the belief that the Dark One was pulling shenanigans…

 

Matt: ...like a little, in essence, let’s say what the Forsaken Lanfear did to Asmodean, you thought maybe the Dark One was doing some similar…shielding…

 

Brandon: …or the other way around…here is a little extra power you can draw upon while I am pleased with you, I can take this away…

 

Matt: ...that is a question…let’s jump to that question, there have been some theories that talk about Lanfear…

 

Brandon: ...let’s back up and say I was wrong. I was interpreting the notes a certain way. Maria was able to pull something out that I had not seen that made it clear that I had misinterpreted and that that is not the case, Cyndane is not under any shenanigans. What you see is what you get.

 

Matt: Cyndane and her alter ego have never been under any shenanigans?

 

Brandon: I’m not going to say never been under any shenanigans, but when you see her creating a gateway she is legitimately powerful enough to do it, which I did not believe that she was. Does that make sense? This is all digging into my read of the notes versus and Maria’s read of the notes and Maria was right. She was able to provide information to me that I had not seen which is nice because it was stuff that was very pertinent for what I am working on right now. It would have come out eventually when I would have sent her the scenes I’m working on, but it came out earlier, which is nice. Once I found out what was going on it all made perfect sense.

 

Matt: So, we will understand then in the next book or so why there is a decrease in power but not a significant decrease?

 

Brandon: Yes.

 

So, I find this very interesting. Essentially Brandon was under the impression that Cyndane's strength was much weaker than it was, and that her occasional bursts of strength were due to the Dark One playing around. This was not the case, her strength is still quite strong--stronger than Graendal--and that’s what it's always been.

 

So the first question is, what was it in the notes that led Brandon to his false conclusion? Given how long Brandon and Maria debated it I'd say it had to be something quite clear. My guess is that the notes stated that Cyndane was burned out during her fall into Finnland, and then healed by a woman. Given Siuan and Leane this provides for why Brandon would think Cyndane should be so much weaker.

 

If that guess is right it brings us to the next question--why wasn't she as drastically reduced as Siuan and Leane? That's an old question, and there have been lots of suggested answers, from the idea that the method of healing was perfected [by Semirhage usually] before being employed on her, to the idea that the stronger you are the less strength you lose in a same gender healing, to everything else under the sun. The problem with any of these is the third question; why did it take Maria a day to convince Brandon that Cyndane wasn't as weak as he thought she was?

 

What I mean by that is that Brandon is about as far from a dummy as you can get, so the answer can't be as simple as 'Cyndane wasn't as reduced as much as Siuan and Leane because [insert the answer here]'. They wouldn't have needed to debate the issue for a full day before Maria convinced Brandon if it were as simple as her showing him a bit he'd missed which detailed why Cyndane was different from Siuan and Leane.

 

I suggest that what Maria was showing him was not how Cyndane managed to retain such strength, but rather that she always should have retained such strength. Or, put another way, that what the notes made clear was that Siuan and Leane did not, in fact, lose as much strength as everyone assumes them to have, and that subsequently Cyndane's loss of strength is not aberrant, but rather in the same style as Siuan and Leane.

 

Let’s have a look at Siuan and Leane’s strength.

 

The Weak Shall Inherit the Earth--But Not Today: The Aes Sedai Hierarchy

 

The first thing that must be kept in mind is that Siuan and Leane’s opinions on this issue are skewed by the influence of the Hierarchy. The Aes Sedai represent only a limited range of strengths, with Daigian establishing the bottom limit for the social range, whilst the upper limit is established by Siuan’s previous strength, where Romanda and Lelaine now sit (note: I exclude Cadsuane and the Wonder Girls because they are outliers; the former is thought dead and the latter aren’t truly included in the Aes Sedai range by most Aes Sedai due to the way they were raised).

 

RJ said 36.2% of all female channelers are below the Aes Sedai cut off strength. For the sake of argument lets just assume that strength is evenly distributed, and that means the cut off strength is around the 30 mark on a scale of one hundred. Also, again for purely argumentative purposes, lets presuppose Siuan’s original strength was around 60. This means that the Aes Sedai Hierarchy roughly includes only about 30% of the full strength range for female channelers.

 

All of this means that a very small loss in strength results in a far greater loss in social standing. At a ratio of about 1:3, to be exact. All of this is a bit irrelevant in truth, I’m just pointing out that we should tread warily in giving too much credence to any Aes Sedai’s judgement of the degree of Siuan and Leane’s decline.

 

Now, keeping that in mind, let’s consider...

 

Half of What We Were

 

The big point in the question of Siuan and Leane’s strength is the quote which seemingly states that they are currently less than half their previous strength. Here it is

 

“If Nynaeve couldn’t heal us all the way the first time, then maybe she can take us to two-thirds what we were. Or even half. Even that would be better than now, but still here many would be as strong, and a good many stronger.”

[LoC: 30 – To Heal Again – 617]

 

Quite clear. If they could be bought up to half of what they were they would be better off. That suggests to me at least a 60% strength loss, and probably more. Only there is a problem. Despite Siuan’s comments both Siuan and Leane stand above the Aes Sedai cut off strength. Indeed, they stand a step or two above that cut off strength, as we can show here.

 

Akkarin was not strong in the Power, little more than Siuan, if at all, but only one other of the six, Therva, a slim woman in yellow slashed riding skirts and a cloak edged in yellow, stood even as high as she.

[CoT: 19 – Surprises – 459]

 

So we have two women around Siuan’s strength, and four who are weaker. Add Daigian and Elise Worrel and of the few Aes Sedai we have strength related comments about, six are weaker than Siuan. Now Siuan and Leane were both strong, but they weren’t Forsaken level. A loss of more than 60% of their strength should not have left them above the Aes Sedai cut off point, much less several steps above it.

 

Straight up that means there is something off about Siuan’s comment. I agree if Cyndane had never come onto the screen I would probably have dismissed it as a weird bit of hyperbole, or something—but now a few questions come to mind. For one, would Siuan have been able to say what she said if she was still sworn to the Oaths? I’m not suggesting she intentionally lied, but we know from Beonin that the Oaths will clamp down on excited utterings.

 

And if you think about the effect of the Hierarchy on the perceptions of comparative strength standings of Aes Sedai you can see where Siuan would have gotten mixed up about the whole thing. I mean if you look at the Aes Sedai in a vacuum she lost considerably more than half her strength. She went from the very top to a couple of steps from the bottom—and take a look at her comments to Nynaeve, they are littered with references to the Hierarchy and the strength judgements in it are all related immediately to where such a change would leave Siuan and Leane within that Hierarchy.

 

Gareth Bryne, That Fat Bastard

 

The other big issue that seems to imply that Siuan lost a great deal of strength is the fact that she cannot lift Gareth Bryne. She cannot even budge him, yet before she was stilled she could lift more than three times her own weight. Of course this assumes that each degree in the power must result in an exact amount of weight lifted, which is problematic. It may well be that the weight one can lift comparative to ones strength increases at an uneven rate. As in, Siuan at 60 could lift 180kg of weight, but Siuan at 40 can only lift 30kg of weight.

 

The reason I suggest this is that Siuan herself states that lifting things with the Power is amongst the most difficult things to do—-not 'requires the most strength' but 'is the most difficult'. Why difficult? You either have the muscles to do it, or not. If you do it is not difficult--it doesn't require any training or specific talent--you just have the strength to lift that thing.

 

Now, we know strength effects capability in ways beyond simply making it easier due to more ‘power muscles’. Stronger channelers are more dextrous, they pick things up faster. I’d suggest there is a similar issue at play with lifting things—and indeed we know that there other things in play with lifting things with the power. Rules inherent to the function of the power, like the heights comparative channelers can lift things to--women for instance can lift things higher than men--Egwene higher than Rand by more than two feet.

 

Indeed, if you think about it this is even more implausible than the less than half argument. Bryne doesn't weight much more than Siuan (he's a relatively small man). If strength to weight is exact and Siuan used to be able to life more than three times her own weight, but now cannot even stir Bryne's feet, than she must be down to around one third her original strength, if not more--which again would fall far below the cut off point.

 

Conclusions

 

There are solid reasons we can discount either the Finns or the Dark One being the source of Cyndane's decline in strength, and strong evidence that she was burned out when she fell through the doorway ter'angreal. We know the presumed original strength of the Cyndane body is not the source of the decline. All of which has always brought us to her being burned out and healed by a woman--except for the discrepancy between Cyndane's loss and Siuan and Leane's.

 

And it’s reasonable that people found the discrepancy such a big issue. It does seem to clearly state the degree of Siuan and Leane's loss. But that is specifically why I think this is the issue that confused Brandon. The clarity of the statements about Siuan and Leane's strength is so great it makes sense that should Brandon have encountered statements in the notes about Cyndane being burned out and healed by a woman he would think she had to be very, very weak, and thus would assume something else was at play (in effect that the Dark One was playing around, lending her strength to travel, and so forth).

 

Similarly it makes sense that it took a full day for Maria to show Brandon evidence of Siuan and Leane's actual strength in the notes. In fact I would say it is the only one that makes sense--any answer to Cyndane's decline which is specific to Cyndane would also be unique to Cyndane--thus the only way to clarify it for Brandon would be if there was a specific statement in the notes as to this unique 'strength limiter'. That very uniqueness would therefore make it easily identifiable, and therefore make the day of study peculiar.

 

[Nightstrike]

Average Aes Sedai (Adeleas & Vandene) can lift 2 women. Siuan used to be roughly 50 percent stronger than the average Aes Sedai. Egwene could lift... What? More than 4 women? Five? Six? I'm thinking about the Sea Folk incident... Egwene is much stronger than average.

[Dakota]

RJ said 36.2% of all female channelers are below the Aes Sedai cut off strength.

 

Whereas 74.6% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

[Nightstrike]

Yeah, statistics is imaginary.  :D

[yoniy0]

Luckers, are you starting a new Strength of Channelers debate? No, no, never mind.

Why do you propose that BS intended that the DO was lending power to Cyndane? How exactly was he to do that (I'm under the impression that the OP is unrelated to the DO and not within his reach to manipulate, other than when he fights its effects, like with the wards)? I understood what BS said as the DO making people think that Cyndane was actually very powerful, when in fact she's not.

 

BTW why did you change your signature? The old one was cooler :)

[Luckers]

RJ said 36.2% of all female channelers are below the Aes Sedai cut off strength.

 

Whereas 74.6% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

 

Well, yes, presumably RJ DID make up that statistic. But then he made up the ability to channel to begin with, so thats a rather weird point your making.

 

More to the point his word is canon, so that statistic is fact.

 

Luckers, are you starting a new Strength of Channelers debate? No, no, never mind.

 

No, and I don't wish to see any attempts to use this thread to recreate that debate.

 

Why do you propose that BS intended that the DO was lending power to Cyndane? How exactly was he to do that (I'm under the impression that the OP is unrelated to the DO and not within his reach to manipulate, other than when he fights its effects, like with the wards)? I understood what BS said as the DO making people think that Cyndane was actually very powerful, when in fact she's not.

 

BS didn't 'intend' that the Dark One was doing that, he mistakenly thought that was the case--I suspect based on attempt to explain how Cyndane was able to Travel in Winter's Heart despite the fact that he thought she was far too weak to travel.

 

As for where I got it. Here.

 

Matt: ...exactly…he was transmigrated into a different body, but still channeling the same power the soul inherits. So considering Jordan's statement about stilling and burning out not affecting the channeling ability of the new life of a soul, is the same for the new life of a soul transmigrated?

 

Brandon: I’m going to say that transmigrated…if you were burned out and transmigrated you would still be burned out, is my guess.

 

Matt: Is that a MAFO question? Or…

 

Brandon: ...that is my guess and you can MAFO it if you want to send it to me, but that is a “I’m pretty sure” answer.

 

Matt: You saw where we were going…

 

Brandon: ...yes, I see where you are going…

 

Matt: ...I had to do the build up to it because it all comes down to that one question for a couple of things.

 

Brandon: This one question you are going to ask next?

 

Matt: I’m not going to ask it…

 

Brandon: ...oh, the one you asked…

 

Matt: ...yeah, I guess I asked a piece of it last night…

 

Brandon: ...when it comes to this certain character that you are talking about, there is a whole thing where Maria and I exchanged a bunch of emails about this. She had managed to pull some things out of the notes that I had not seen, which is interesting, because I was going off of something else. I did not think that Cyndane should be nearly as powerful as she was put in the books as being, so I had been under the belief that the Dark One was pulling shenanigans…

 

Matt: ...like a little, in essence, let’s say what the Forsaken Lanfear did to Asmodean, you thought maybe the Dark One was doing some similar…shielding…

 

Brandon: …or the other way around…here is a little extra power you can draw upon while I am pleased with you, I can take this away…

 

Matt: ...that is a question…let’s jump to that question, there have been some theories that talk about Lanfear…

 

Brandon: ...let’s back up and say I was wrong. I was interpreting the notes a certain way. Maria was able to pull something out that I had not seen that made it clear that I had misinterpreted and that that is not the case, Cyndane is not under any shenanigans. What you see is what you get.

 

Matt: Cyndane and her alter ego have never been under any shenanigans?

 

Brandon: I’m not going to say never been under any shenanigans, but when you see her creating a gateway she is legitimately powerful enough to do it, which I did not believe that she was. Does that make sense? This is all digging into my read of the notes versus and Maria’s read of the notes and Maria was right. She was able to provide information to me that I had not seen which is nice because it was stuff that was very pertinent for what I am working on right now. It would have come out eventually when I would have sent her the scenes I’m working on, but it came out earlier, which is nice. Once I found out what was going on it all made perfect sense.

 

Matt: So, we will understand then in the next book or so why there is a decrease in power but not a significant decrease?

 

Brandon: Yes.

 

Specifically, the part I was referring too "when you see her creating a gateway she is legitimately powerful enough to do it, which I did not believe that she was."

 

I might edit to include this in the original topic.

 

BTW why did you change your signature? The old one was cooler

 

I like to mix things up every now and then.

[yoniy0]

Oh, you got me there, I suppose. Forgot about that bit, though I think that whole conversation is one of the most enlightening 'interviews' we've had.

On a slightly different note, far be it from me to consider my judgment superior to BS's (actually, now that I think about it, I don't promise not to do that, from time to time (: ), but since he said himself that he was wrong, let me reiterate that I don't believe it's within the DO's powers to grant someone more access to Saidin or Saidar. He can compensate with TP allowance, but that's it, I think.

[dholm]

I don't see how Siuan and Leane were confused -- they never said they were at less than half their strength. They said they were less than half of what they were. They refer to the hierarchy, not their strength -- they include their strength, yes, but also their time spent studying as novices and Accepted, as well as their actual age, and probably dozens of other things. Leane makes a comment about how being stilled then Healed might affect it negatively, similar to how being a wilder does.

 

This has absolutely no bearing on your conclusion, however. We do not know that Lanfear was burned out then Healed -- in fact, we do not even know whether or not being burned out can be Healed. There is an actual difference beyond semantics between being burned out and being stilled. Women who are stilled can still sense the True Source. Women who are burned out cannot. There are numerous references to women still sensing the Source after being stilled, but only one to burned out women that I can recall. When Nynaeve is taking the test for Accepted. After she exits the first arch, she mentions channeling inside, and Sheriam cautions her against it, saying that when the ter'angreal was first found, they sent in women with all the protection they could muster. They remembered everything, channeled when they were in danger, and came out burned out, "unable even to sense the True Source". It's in TGH, chapter 23.

 

It's also a rather wild assumption to say that Brandon's mistake was due to Siuan and Leane's loss. Even if one accepts your premise, and he believed Siuan and Leane lost 60% of their original strength, Lanfear was the most powerful woman in her time. Losing 60% of her original strength would render her just below average, not "very, very weak".

 

Also, despite Siuan and Leane not losing as much as one initially might assume from their conversation with Nynaeve and Elayne, they still lose a great deal. If we accept your numbers, and Aes Sedai strength only covers around 30% of the range of possible strength in saidar, and those 30% range from 30% to 60%, Siuan and Leane must be between 35-45% to lose as much standing as they did. For Siuan, that would be 60-70% of her original strength. If Cyndane is at 60-70% of Lanfear's original strength, then she's at 60-70% of all possible strength -- that makes no sense! That'd be just barely stronger than the original Siuan. Cyndane is stronger than Graendal, who is certainly much stronger than Siuan.

[geogeer]

I think the level of power returned has to do with the healing.

 

Nynaeve heals Logain -> full power

Nynaeve heals Siuan and Leane -> partial

Flynn heals stilled sisters -> full power

 

So if the opposite power is used to heal stilling then the full strength is returned.  What does the DO have access to?  The True Power.  While the True Power is stronger than either of Saidin or Saidar individually, the two combined are stronger than the True Power.

 

So the DO "healed" Lanfear from being stilled, but it is not an opposite to either power therefore it does not work as well.

[Nightstrike]

I don't see how Siuan and Leane were confused -- they never said they were at less than half their strength. They said they were less than half of what they were. They refer to the hierarchy, not their strength -- they include their strength, yes, but also their time spent studying as novices and Accepted, as well as their actual age, and probably dozens of other things. Leane makes a comment about how being stilled then Healed might affect it negatively, similar to how being a wilder does.

They referred to their strength. It's in the book. "Strong" is mentioned...

 

[dholm]

I don't see how Siuan and Leane were confused -- they never said they were at less than half their strength. They said they were less than half of what they were. They refer to the hierarchy, not their strength -- they include their strength, yes, but also their time spent studying as novices and Accepted, as well as their actual age, and probably dozens of other things. Leane makes a comment about how being stilled then Healed might affect it negatively, similar to how being a wilder does.

They referred to their strength. It's in the book. "Strong" is mentioned...

 

Yes, because strength is part of the hierarchy. I mentioned this.

 

Look at the quote Luckers provided. Strength is mentioned in comparison to other sisters; when Leane compare themselves to what they were before, she simply says, "what [they] were", not "how strong [they] were".

[Nightstrike]

If Nynaeve couldn't Heal us all the way the first time, maybe she'll only take us to two-thirds what we were, or half. Even that would be better than now, but still most here would be as strong, and a good many stronger

 

She was less than she had been, no longer Amyrlin and no longer anywhere near so strong in the Power.

 

“There was no one stronger than me, before … Sometimes, when Romanda is hammering at me, or Lelaine, it suddenly hits me like a gale. They’re so far above me now, I should be holding my tongue until they give me permission to speak. Even Aeldene is, and she’s no more than middling.”

 

“I [Leane] am not as strong as I was, Siuan, and neither are you. Most of the women here can channel more than either of us, now. Light, I think some of the Accepted can, not even counting Elayne and Nynaeve.”

 

His boots never stirred from the floor … the simple act of picking something up was one of the hardest in channeling, but she had been able to lift nearly three times her own weight.

 

[Luckers]

I don't see how Siuan and Leane were confused -- they never said they were at less than half their strength. They said they were less than half of what they were. They refer to the hierarchy, not their strength -- they include their strength, yes, but also their time spent studying as novices and Accepted, as well as their actual age, and probably dozens of other things. Leane makes a comment about how being stilled then Healed might affect it negatively, similar to how being a wilder does.

 

Lol. I've always argued that point myself, but people tend to want to stick to the strict 'she was speaking of strength'. This topic isn't reliant on that intepretation of Siuan's words, so I figured why gum up the works. Deal straight with the worse case scenario, as it were.

 

This has absolutely no bearing on your conclusion, however. We do not know that Lanfear was burned out then Healed -- in fact, we do not even know whether or not being burned out can be Healed. There is an actual difference beyond semantics between being burned out and being stilled. Women who are stilled can still sense the True Source. Women who are burned out cannot. There are numerous references to women still sensing the Source after being stilled, but only one to burned out women that I can recall. When Nynaeve is taking the test for Accepted. After she exits the first arch, she mentions channeling inside, and Sheriam cautions her against it, saying that when the ter'angreal was first found, they sent in women with all the protection they could muster. They remembered everything, channeled when they were in danger, and came out burned out, "unable even to sense the True Source". It's in TGH, chapter 23.

 

I don't want this to turn into a discussion about whether burning out can be healed. This theory suggests it, true, and as such all it really needs is that nothing specifically forbids the concept. That being said there is evidence that it is healable and I'm more than interested in talking about that. Start a new thread for it and I'll joing you there.

 

But to be clear--"We do not know that Lanfear was burned out then Healed".

 

No, we don't. That would be the point of this thread, to suggest that as an explanation of both the mystery of Cyndane's strength loss and the source of Brandon's mistake.

 

It's also a rather wild assumption to say that Brandon's mistake was due to Siuan and Leane's loss. Even if one accepts your premise, and he believed Siuan and Leane lost 60% of their original strength, Lanfear was the most powerful woman in her time. Losing 60% of her original strength would render her just below average, not "very, very weak".

 

I'm suggesting this as a reason for Brandon's mistake. This is a theory dholm. As for your point, if Lanfear lost 60% of her power she would not still be stronger than Graendal, which Cyndane is.

 

Also, despite Siuan and Leane not losing as much as one initially might assume from their conversation with Nynaeve and Elayne, they still lose a great deal. If we accept your numbers, and Aes Sedai strength only covers around 30% of the range of possible strength in saidar, and those 30% range from 30% to 60%, Siuan and Leane must be between 35-45% to lose as much standing as they did. For Siuan, that would be 60-70% of her original strength. If Cyndane is at 60-70% of Lanfear's original strength, then she's at 60-70% of all possible strength -- that makes no sense! That'd be just barely stronger than the original Siuan. Cyndane is stronger than Graendal, who is certainly much stronger than Siuan.

 

And what if its a set amount?

 

Now, to be clear, I'm not looking for this to turn into a discussion of the math--I threw that out there to make a minor and mostly irrelevant point about the effect of the limited strength range on the perceptions of Aes Sedai about strength and standing. Indeed, I actually made it larger range of strengths than I expect it actually is--that whole argue against the worst case scenario thing again.

 

So, with that in mind, and again only for argumentative purposes (and to convey my meaning). Say you lose 15 units of strength when you get healed by someone of the same gender. Dropping Siuan from 60 to 45. Meanwhile Lanfear drops from 100 to 85. Graendal  can still sit quite comfortably at 80.

 

From there consider--What if I've vastly over-estimated the Aes Sedai range? What if the Aes Sedai lower limit is exactly 36. And Siuan was not 60, but 50? What if the distribution of strengths is skewed amongst the Aes Sedai, and the average strength is 45?

 

Losing 5 units of strength would pass hundreds of sisters. Lose 8 and you'd be past most.

 

Now as I said this is all bulldiddy. The point of this thread is not guaging the strengths of channelers or the strata of the Aes Sedai. We don't have the information to do that to any decent degree. It's about the potential for misinterpretation on this issue.

[Nightstrike]

This is probably from an earlier edition:

"Leane is not as strong as she was, and neither is Siuan. Most women in Salidar can channel more than either of them, now. Even some of the Accepted can. Not even counting Elayne or Nynaeve. If Siuan and Leane were Healed to half or two thirds of their original strength, most Aes Sedai in Salidar would be as strong, and a good many stronger. Delana is much stronger than Siuan now, whereas before the margin had gone the other way."

[Luckers]

Guys, this is pointless. Even if dholm is correct in his interpretation it makes no difference--that Nightstrike (and so, so, many others) would interpret it as they do allows for Brandon to have done so.

 

I mean's he's openly stated he's misinterpreted something, so what's the beef?

[Nightstrike]

Regarding the stuff he misinterpreted, why they had to discuss it, and so on - I don't know what it means.

 

Maybe it's a fixed amount of strength units, or maybe it was the DO who Healed her? Although I believe it was probably a woman who Healed her. I think Brandon's twitter makes it the most likely scenario.

 

Men have Healed burning out and women have Healed stilling. I think it's the same weave in both cases. But, of course, different weaves depending on whether the Healer is male or female.

 

Edit: Moridin had never heard of Healing severing before. If the DO could do it, then I think he would have been aware of it.

[dholm]

Men have Healed burning out and women have Healed stilling.

Damer Flinn Healed three sisters Rand stilled when he escaped from the box in Dumai's Wells, and I believe that's the only instance we hear of a man restoring someone's ability to channel.

 

But that discussion belongs in another thread.

 

I am not sold on the idea that Lanfear was burned out or stilled, then Healed. I think Cyndane's lower strength is either a direct result of her imprisonment with the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn in some manner, or a punishment given by the Great Lord.

[Nightstrike]

He crushed the weaves they were upholding. That's burning out, according to the BWB. Knowledge of Aes Sedai. I think they were burned out. Not being able to feel the Source, and so on.

[nategator]

I think the

 

She was able to provide information to me that I had not seen which is nice because it was stuff that was very pertinent for what I am working on right now. It would have come out eventually when I would have sent her the scenes I’m working on, but it came out earlier, which is nice. Once I found out what was going on it all made perfect sense"

 

portion of the interview is fascinating. Good chance that Cyndane, and her power levels, is important in the next book.  Best guess is that she either comes into play in journey to 'Finn world or the Elayne storyline.  Of course, it could be more Suiane complaining about her power hit or, in my opinion worse, Moraine took a power hit as well...  

[dholm]

He crushed the weaves they were upholding. That's burning out, according to the BWB. Knowledge of Aes Sedai. I think they were burned out. Not being able to feel the Source, and so on.

I think Luckers will get cross if we keep discussing this here, but that's not how I interpret the scene. He crushed their ability to channel. Everyone discusses it in terms of stilling, not burning out. The weave they were upholding was the wall he crawled along. The "soft points" were them.

[Luckers]

I am not sold on the idea that Lanfear was burned out or stilled, then Healed. I think Cyndane's lower strength is either a direct result of her imprisonment with the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn in some manner, or a punishment given by the Great Lord.

 

I doubt it was a punishment. Even if you accept that the Dark One could do this it makes very little sense. For starters, Cyndane was immediately bound by a cour’souvra. This ensured complete control of Cyndane by the Shadow.

 

From there, the Dark One has shown that he has a high appreciation of the value of his Chosen’s strength and proficiency at channeling. RJ has even commented on how little he trusts Third Age channelers, so here is the question: Why would the Dark One hamstring himself by weakening Cyndane? At this stage he has total control of Cyndane; she is effectively nothing more than a tool, and it makes no sense for the Dark One to limit the effectiveness of that tool, especially when he has already punished her by trapping her soul.

 

Some people argue that the Dark One is so alien that normal conceptions of common sense don’t apply; and they are partially correct. Yet when it comes to his agenda’s, and his beliefs (that Second Age channelers are more useful) the Dark One is not a fool. There is a pattern of logic that he does indeed follow, and under that pattern it makes no sense for him to have reduced Cyndane’s strength.

 

 

I think the

 

She was able to provide information to me that I had not seen which is nice because it was stuff that was very pertinent for what I am working on right now. It would have come out eventually when I would have sent her the scenes I’m working on, but it came out earlier, which is nice. Once I found out what was going on it all made perfect sense"

 

portion of the interview is fascinating. Good chance that Cyndane, and her power levels, is important in the next book.  Best guess is that she either comes into play in journey to 'Finn world or the Elayne storyline.  Of course, it could be more Suiane complaining about her power hit or, in my opinion worse, Moraine took a power hit as well...  

 

He did say that it will be made clear in the next book why Cyndane's strength is weaker, but not significantly weaker.

 

He crushed the weaves they were upholding. That's burning out, according to the BWB. Knowledge of Aes Sedai. I think they were burned out. Not being able to feel the Source, and so on.

I think Luckers will get cross if we keep discussing this here, but that's not how I interpret the scene. He crushed their ability to channel. Everyone discusses it in terms of stilling, not burning out. The weave they were upholding was the wall he crawled along. The "soft points" were them.

 

Create a new thread please.

[wipe]

It's also a rather wild assumption to say that Brandon's mistake was due to Siuan and Leane's loss. Even if one accepts your premise, and he believed Siuan and Leane lost 60% of their original strength, Lanfear was the most powerful woman in her time. Losing 60% of her original strength would render her just below average, not "very, very weak".

 

I've followed both this discussion and the strength of channelers (and basically all of the threads on this site). My question to you all is: Why do you all suppose that strenght in channeling is a linear thing, it can be exponential (or following some other rule)? If it is sometype of exponential curve; as you get higher up (as Lanfear at the top of the female side) wouldn't be taken down to grendael's strength even though she lost half of her strength. On the other hand it would be a marked drop that somebody woould notice (and not marginally weaker as it seems Grendael thinks Cyndane is). Killed my own point, but there are several other forms of growth that strength of powerr could follow- not only linear...

[Paerish Swar]

I disagree with those that think Lanfear was stilled or burnt out and then healed, thus creating the weakened state.  If that were all that had happened, why is she in a new body?  The logic of the stilling/burning out theory would have to follow that Lanfear died, got her new body, was at full strength, and THEN got stilled or burnt out in her new body, and THEN got healed.  I see no reason to assume that scenario would be the case here.

 

I also disagree with the idea that the weakening was a punishment from the DO.  Why would he intentionally weaken one of his own tools?  Isn't the cour'souvra punishment enough?

 

I see only two viable circumstances for this weakening to occur: one kinda obvious, and one a little further out there.

 

1)  The Finns did something to Lanfear.  Perhaps she made the same mistake as Mat and didn't first set a price for whatever it was she may have said she wanted.  The Finns then did something that sapped away some of her channeling strength (it would be an inspired choice on the Finn's part, since her strength appears to be something very precious to her - a lot of her personality is wrapped up in the fact that she was THE strongest female EVER).  This would be a pretty heavy price, indeed - but maybe not as high a price as Mr. Sanderson had initially thought.

 

or . . .

 

2)  The metaphysics of channeling ability itself has multiple parts to it - some sort of mind, body, soul connectivity / relationship.  Is there an aspect to channeling that is in some way a function of one's soul/thread and another aspect to channeling that has to do with an actual physical construct in the body?  What if the issue at hand here is that Cyndane's body just doesn't have the physical capability of processing as much of the One Power as Lanfear's old body did; there's some sort of physical "wall" or limit of Cyndane -the body itself- that prohibits the full channeling potential of the soul/thread of Lanfear to be utilized?

 

 

I don't know how far either of these two issues have every been discussed; maybe I'm repeated a lot of stuff that somebody else has said (I haven't read every single post about Lanfear, Cyndane, and channeling ability out there).  In any case, I think these are the two most likely reason's for the Lanfear-Cyndane strength difference, and the reason why Mr. Sanderson was initially under a different impression of Cyndane's strength - a lot of this stuff seems pretty vague and convoluted.

 

[Luckers]

I disagree with those that think Lanfear was stilled or burnt out and then healed, thus creating the weakened state.  If that were all that had happened, why is she in a new body?  The logic of the stilling/burning out theory would have to follow that Lanfear died, got her new body, was at full strength, and THEN got stilled or burnt out in her new body, and THEN got healed.  I see no reason to assume that scenario would be the case here.

 

No, the argument goes that Lanfear (and Moiraine) were burned out falling through the doorway ter'angreal. When we last saw Lanfear she stood channeling through an angreal that Moiraine clawed out of her hands as they both fell through a ter’angreal which subsequently exploded. From the beginning of the series we have been warned time and again of the dangers of channeling near ter’angreal. Add to that the fight over the angreal and the transportation to a different reality, and the likelihood that they weren’t both burned out becomes slim.

 

Beyond that, at that exact moment Lan’s bond to Moiraine was snapped, and as far as we’ve seen only two things cause a bond to snap—death and the Aes Sedai being severed from the True Source. Since we know Moiraine did not die (as of Knife of Dreams), than that leaves the possibility of being severed.

 

Now, as a side point, some suggest that the bond was severed when the passage between the two realities was severed, and yet there is still a passage between the real world, and the realm of the Finns in existence. Still, there is nothing to directly preclude this as a possibility.

 

A final piece of evidence can be found in the fact that the Finns managed to hold Moiraine and Lanfear (which we know they did between Moiraine’s letter in KoD and Lanfear’s comment in Winter’s Heart). We also know that channeling works against the Finns as a deterent since Rand manages to hold the Finn of with his fiery sword. So, the question is this: If Moiraine and Lanfear weren’t severed, how did the Finns manage to hold them? Both possessed their own angreal, and both would have been at least somewhat aware of how to deal with the Finn’s (fire, music, iron). Indeed, it’s likely Lanfear even knew of the Tower of Ghenjei, and the way out of Finnland. So how did the Finns contain these two powerful channelers?

 

Some suggest the Finns have the ability to break weaves of the Power, as with Mat’s ter’angreal. Yet the presence of the Aes Sedai symbol small as the foxes eye on that ter’angreal suggest it was made by the Aes Sedai for the Finns, not the other way round. Moreover, Cyndane’s shock upon encountering a similar ter’angreal when she was fighting Alivia essentially prove that she had never encountered anything of the sort prior to that event.

 

Lanfear was then held for some time by the Finns (as we know from Cyndane) before she died (or was killed, whichever). After dying her soul was transmigrated into a new body and named Cyndane--from Aran'gar we know that the channeling state remains constant through the transmigration process--and as such it is likely Cyndane was still burned out. Additionally, we have Brandon's answer.

 

Matt: ...exactly…he was transmigrated into a different body, but still channeling the same power the soul inherits. So considering Jordan's statement about stilling and burning out not affecting the channeling ability of the new life of a soul, is the same for the new life of a soul transmigrated?

 

Brandon: I’m going to say that transmigrated…if you were burned out and transmigrated you would still be burned out, is my guess.

 

Matt: Is that a MAFO question? Or…

 

Brandon: ...that is my guess and you can MAFO it if you want to send it to me, but that is a “I’m pretty sure” answer.

 

I'm pretty sure too. :)

 

1)  The Finns did something to Lanfear.  Perhaps she made the same mistake as Mat and didn't first set a price for whatever it was she may have said she wanted.  The Finns then did something that sapped away some of her channeling strength (it would be an inspired choice on the Finn's part, since her strength appears to be something very precious to her - a lot of her personality is wrapped up in the fact that she was THE strongest female EVER).  This would be a pretty heavy price, indeed - but maybe not as high a price as Mr. Sanderson had initially thought.

 

There have been a number of theories about Finn involvement, including Lanfear making a badly worded wish, her paying for a wish with some of her strength, of Moiraine asking for, and taking Lanfear’s excess strength, but the fact is that all of these are unlikely.

 

For starters, despite the perception of the Finns as magical creatures akin to genies, bound to give three wishes as an innate part of their being, we know that this is not true. The Finns offer a service, a skill that they have, in exchange for something they desire. The nature of the relationship between humanity and the Finns is very much that of a trade agreement—and we know this for a fact. The agreement with humans is something that was reached, not expected on behalf of humans; and based on the Eelfinn we meet who is wearing human skin, the agreement is not something they hold to like some magical law. If broken, they react.

 

Then we have Moiraine and Lanfear. Their arrival not only severs a source of trade that the Finns doubtlessly find highly valuable, but if what occurred on this side of the doorway is any indication then they also caused a rather vicious fire, which as a source of light is expressly forbidden in the treaty. If someone kicked in a merchants door, bringing with them something expressly illegal—and dangerous—then that merchant is unlikely to offer to serve that individual.

 

Beyond that, we also have evidence of the Finns have a dislike for the Shadow—a dislike so strong that they punish people severely who even ask questions that might relate to the Shadow, and here we have Lanfear who is as close to the Shadow made flesh as it is possible to get.

 

And indeed, we even have direct proof of the Finns unhappiness in the fact that Lanfear and Moiraine were both held against there will, and Lanfear later ended up dead. Essentially it is unlikely to the edge of absurdity to expect the Finns to offer Lanfear or Moiraine any wishes.

 

2)  The metaphysics of channeling ability itself has multiple parts to it - some sort of mind, body, soul connectivity / relationship.  Is there an aspect to channeling that is in some way a function of one's soul/thread and another aspect to channeling that has to do with an actual physical construct in the body?  What if the issue at hand here is that Cyndane's body just doesn't have the physical capability of processing as much of the One Power as Lanfear's old body did; there's some sort of physical "wall" or limit of Cyndane -the body itself- that prohibits the full channeling potential of the soul/thread of Lanfear to be utilized?

 

This was suggested often when Cyndane first appeared weaker, and at first glance it does hold some merit in that we know it takes the Shadow some time to find suitable bodies to contain their disenfranchised Chosen. However, if this were the case, how was it that Moridin, Osan’gar and most importantly Aran’gar retained their strength and connection to the Source? If Demandred’s thoughts on Cyndane—specifically that her reduced strength made it unlikely that she was Lanfear—then we know that the other Recycled Forsaken strength’s were all exactly the same as what they had been before. Moreover, if this aspect of channeling were a function of the body and not the soul, than how is it possible that Aran’gar still channeled saidin?

 

 

[Paerish Swar]

The reason why I landed on the two possibilities that I did to explain for Cyndane's weakened strength was in part because of my interpretation of the full Sanderson quote at the beginning of this thread.  After rereading the full quote a couple more times, I feel even more strongly that it probably isn't the burned out, transmigrated soul theory.

 

OK (totally paraphrasing here), BS admits that the reason he thought Cyndane was so much weaker than Lanfear was because he had misinterpreted something from the notes he had been looking at, but Maria had found other notes that cleared up the issue and proved his interpretation to be incorrect (or at the very least supurfluous).  So, something was misinterpreted by BS and he was set straight on the matter difinitively.

 

He admits this misinterpretation after he had just answered the question about transmigrated souls that were burned out staying burned out.  He answers that question with the words “my guess” (twice) and “I'm pretty sure.”

 

If the notes in question (brought to BS's attention by Maria) were regarding the nature of transmigrated souls that were burned out staying burned out when put in the new body, wouldn't he have answered the first question with something more definate than “my guess”?  Wouldn't he know that specific fact for certain at this point?

 

This lead me to believe that Maria had pulled out some notes about what was really going on with Cyndane's strength, and it did not have anything to do with burned out, transmigrated souls.  So, in my mind Cyndane's situation has to be a result of something different, or else BS's answer to that very theory would have been much more definate.

 

Also, he says at the end of the quote that the notes Maria came up with were very pertinent to what he was working on at the time with ToM – it has something to do with a major scene in ToM and happens to explain the Cyndane weakening.  We know that there's going to be a big Finnland scene in the next book, so . . . 

 

The only way those notes could be really pertinent to a scene in the next book, and reveal the Cyndane weakness, and support the burned out transmigrated soul theory is if we see Moiraine healed by Damer Flinn (reasonably assumming she was burned out too for the warder bond with Lan to have broken), and afterwards she is just a little bit weaker than she used to be, because healing severing and healing being burned out are slightly different.  (I guess the healing of Setalle Anan would do for that purpose as well, but that sure would be odd to spend time resolving that specific side plot this close to Tarmon Gaidon, right?)  I don't know that that scenario is likely.  There could be more exciting ways to deal with the issue.

 

That is why I am personally moving away from the burned out, transmigrated soul that was healed theory, and am moving toward the first of the two theories that I spoke of above.