The Voice in his Head

[Erewan]

A good friend of mine is a professor of philosophy, and he just edited a book called "Heroes and Philosophy."  There is a chapter in there about identity, and if you're not familiar with the subject I highly recommend you pick up the book.  His book talks about how Nathan's memories are put into Syler's body... so who is he then?  Nathan or Syler.

 

Getting to the point... and back to the Wheel of Time.  It occurred to me that there is a similar question of identity in the WoT series in general... about Rand and the voice in his head.  I had an opportunity to chat with Kyle a bit this afternoon, and I'll post the contents of our discussion.  You may find it interesting, and discussable.

 

I've sort of lurked for a while.  I was active on Stonedog's discussion forums about 7 years ago, so this ends up being my first post here.

 

Erewan: Got time for a philosophical question? :):)

 

Professor: sure!

 

Erewan: Ok.. so think of the issue with Syler-Nathan

So in my wheel of time books the cannon is that time is like a wheel, and what happened before happens again

 

Professor: ok

 

Erewan: and certain "heroes" appear in each age

the one prophesized to defeat the "Dark One" in the last battle is called the dragon

Professor:  following so far

 

Erewan:  now.. the guy in the current age hears the "voice" of the dragon from the previous age in his head

 

they have conversations with each other.. and teach each other things

 

(e.g. how to paint)

 

Professor:  alrighty

 

Erewan:  However it never really specifies if the guy is schizophrenic

 

... you could teach yourself to paint

 

and how can you prove if you taught the guy in your head how to sing a song

 

so to the question... how can you prove if the voice in your head is real.. and if it is real is it numerically different from you

 

Professor:  right, ok... and Sylar/Nathan sure seems schizo

 

Well, it depends on what you mean "real"

 

if you hear it, it's real....

 

as in, it exists

 

Erewan:  from your perspective right?

 

its very much the same with syler.. the voice of the dragon in his head is frequently trying to take control of the body

 

Professor: right... well, if it's real it's real

 

Erewan: but if no one else can hear it... does it still exist?

 

Professor: no-one else can hear it, but it still exists so it's real

 

Erewan:  we know with syler that nathan exists

Professor:  nothing's existence is dependent upon knowledge of it

 

Erewan:  but we can't be entirely sure the voice of the dragon exists.. he just showed up one day (no magic hero power involved)

 

Professor:  there is a slight conceptual mistake being made there

 

the person who hears the voice knows that THE VOICE exists

 

whether the voice belongs to the dragon, or is merely a product of his imagination is another question

 

so then that is the question. If it is merely a product or your imagination.. it is not numerically separate from you, it is just a part of you

 

but if it does belong to someone else, then it is numerically separate from you

 

but then the question is--how do you know if it is part of your imagination or really someone else's voice in your head

 

Erewan:  We have instances where he asks the voice in his head a question, and through narrative we get the answer

Professor: There is no way to know for sure--but clearly the simplest explanation is that it is part of your imagination

 

Erewan: other times, he just knows stuff without having to ask that he shouldn't know (what someone looks like he's never met)

 

so assuming the voice belongs to someone else... would they still be different?

 

i don't think the "chain" of memory is broken from one to the other

 

 

Professor:  yeah, we even have neurological explanations for how someone could hear such a voice, but that it simply emanates from one's own brain--for instance, the two hemispheres communicating with each other could look like what you are describing

 

yeah, if the voice does belong to someone else, then they would be separate--it's right in the question "if it belongs to 'SOMEONE ELSE'--if it is someone else's voice, it is not yours, and they are not you.

 

Erewan:  and if he sometimes know things he shouldn't know, but the voice would know?

 

e.g. he can recall the event as if he was there and not through and ask/answer session with the voice

 

Professor: I have read about that kind of stuff happening in real life--with brain injuries, etc.

Erewan: so then is the voice still numerically different if the chain of memory isn't broken between person 1 and the voice in his head?

 

who, at least at one point, was a living, breathing, individual

 

Professor: For instance, some people have amnesia and will claim not to know certain things--but when you put them in certain situations, they "just know" and don't even know how.

 

Erewan: chalking that up to instinct/muscle memory?

 

Professor: That is the funny thing about memory--as the chapter said, memory is not good for determining personal identity--because memory chains can be broken or artificially forged (I can wipe your memory and give you my memories, but that doesn't make me you)

 

Erewan: har.. that reminds me of a quote from Aeon Flux: Thats the funny thing about memory isn't it? We are not what we remember of ourselves. We are what people say we are. We are nothing but blank screens.

 

Professor: yeah, cool quote! Supposed i told you that our bodied were going to trade memories, and then that one of those bodies would be tortured--which one would you want tortured? The one with your memories, or the one with your brain?

 

Erewan: that depends on if I'm a masochist, in which case i would answer both please

 

Professor:  lol

 

Erewan: or would that be true masochism? My Response would be sadistic towards one body and masochist towards the other.

 

Professor: i think that example is in the chapter on identity--but i think you get the point.. even if the originator of the voice shares the memories, that does not necessarily make them the same person

 

it's hard to talk about these things b/c our language isn't precise enough

[Talmanes]

Edited since someone thinks that the most unspoiling way to put what I said is a spoiler.

[Balefire to da face!]

My opinion on the subject is this....

 

Rand knows things that only LTT could know, so there is more to it then just Rand's brain doing backflips. However, I think this is just a result of continuous memory from Rand to LTT, to beyond. Much like Birgitte having memories of her past lives.

 

Where Rand differs is that his mental state(perhaps helped along by the taint, perhaps not) manifested his fear, self-loating, guilt and all those negative things into a voice. And that voice took the form of LTT since we know that the most recent memories are the easiest to remember from Birgitte, and the fact that Rand has all these negative emotions about being the Dragon....destroyer of the world. So all his negative feelings manifest into this voice. We have Rand's own self loating bubbling to the top, mixed in with these real memories of his past life.

 

An interesting question....is Rand's almost fanatical refusal to harm women a result of how the past life ending in killing Ileyena perhaps? I think the important thing here is that there should not be a distinction as people between Rand and LTT. I would use the phrase "two sides of the same coin", but that's not really accurate because there are many more sides to that coin, and they aren't really two different sides even. More like a continuous string that just changes color a little bit.

[Mablir Dorlig]

Are you just trying to advertise your "friend"s book?

[Erewan]

No.. I'm not trying to advertise my friend's book.

 

I've read the entire series... he had not.  So essentially I gave him just enough information to make a judgement.

My opinion on the subject is this....

 

Rand knows things that only LTT could know, so there is more to it then just Rand's brain doing backflips. However, I think this is just a result of continuous memory from Rand to LTT, to beyond. Much like Birgitte having memories of her past lives.

 

 

I think you have to understand numerical identity.  Because Rand can hear the voice, it exists.  Because the memory chain of LTT is unbroken, those are certainly his memories.  Even Rand considers most of them to be "not" his memories. 

 

Take Mat for example as well.  His holes in his memories were filled with other people's memories, and we know they do not belong to him.  There  Was super magical power involved in transferring memory around, so we know for a fact Matt is not just Schizo and yet somehow an idiot savant at battle planning.  Yet Mat used those memories to fill his memory chain, and will now think things like "Man.. i hate remembering dying."  As if that had happened to him, not a memory of someone else in his head.

 

Rand, on the other hand, does not accept LTT's memories as his own.  He picks up some of LTT's mannerisms (e.g. pulling his ear and humming when he sees a pretty ankle or whatever), but a lot of that can be explained by normal interaction transference.

 

Balefire,  I like a lot of your ideas, I just don't agree that they are the same person.  The voice exists.  It has thoughts of it's own.  I hate to get all Descartes and such, but "I think, therefore I am."

[OptimusPrime]

Things might become a little clearer if you read TGS.

 

So you believe the question is answered in TGS then? Thanks for the spoiler.

[Erewan]

So you believe the question is answered in TGS then? Thanks for the spoiler.

 

I don't think this is resolved at any point.  In CoT we get the most on this issue we ever did, or probably ever will.  Its a basic philosophical question.  Technically the voice in my head when i have an internal monologue can be described as a different person.  What was said in this thread isn't at all a spoiler.

[OptimusPrime]

No, the THREAD isnt. Talmanes about this issue "being clearer if you read TGS" is a spoiler.

 

 

[Balefire to da face!]

 

I think you have to understand numerical identity.  Because Rand can hear the voice, it exists.  Because the memory chain of LTT is unbroken, those are certainly his memories.  Even Rand considers most of them to be "not" his memories. 

 

Take Mat for example as well.  His holes in his memories were filled with other people's memories, and we know they do not belong to him.  There  Was super magical power involved in transferring memory around, so we know for a fact Matt is not just Schizo and yet somehow an idiot savant at battle planning.  Yet Mat used those memories to fill his memory chain, and will now think things like "Man.. i hate remembering dying."  As if that had happened to him, not a memory of someone else in his head.

 

Rand, on the other hand, does not accept LTT's memories as his own.  He picks up some of LTT's mannerisms (e.g. pulling his ear and humming when he sees a pretty ankle or whatever), but a lot of that can be explained by normal interaction transference.

 

Balefire,  I like a lot of your ideas, I just don't agree that they are the same person.  The voice exists.  It has thoughts of it's own.  I hate to get all Descartes and such, but "I think, therefore I am."

 

Well, I don't beleive "I think, therefore I am" applies here. I would imagine that applies to a single being inside a single body. That would generally be true. If a being has thought, then that particular being "is". LTT's "thoughts" are just a construct of Rand's mind. So it has no bearing on the argument....his thoughts could range from anything to LTT being a sentient being, to being nothing more then Rand's mind sticking itself with emotional needles.

 

Now, I suppose we could talk about split personalities, how each of them is a valid individual, but I don't see LTT as that. He is the waste product of all of Rand's negative feelings. He is Rand's own punishment to himself. There's nothing there but desire to end things. It's like calling a glorified temper tantrum an individual.