Rand and Moridin - Saidin Sickness and the Body Swap

[Luckers]

Do you remember my other post Robert? Where i said this always comes up. And i do mean always. :)

 

We have seen the manipulation of the soul many times by forces other then the Dark One (it should be noted that we have never seen the Creator do such, though it seems likely he could). Dreamwalkers souls leave their bodies all the time, which we know from when Perrin went to far and felt like 'one without a soul'. Machin Shin, and likely Mashadar also, can remove souls, Mordeth should have been able to remove Fain's soul, and inser his own (he failed to, but that was because of the unusual nature of Fain's soul). Also due to certain terángreal like the hedgehog we know that channelers used to be able to intentionally remove peoples souls.

 

Also Amys statement that drawing people into teláran'rhiod is an evil thing likely stems from the fact that you would be taking their soul out of their body.

 

Whilst this isn't in the specific manner you asked about... the exchange of two souls between two bodies at the same time... it does show the easy malliability and manupuability of souls in general. It makes it not only possible, but very likely easy... something that could very well result from a natural accident.

 

As for the boat and bond... its likely the bond sticks to moridin, and gets severed when Alivia killed him, leading to the mourning and Rand's death and so forth. There seem to be indications that, for a time, the three girls will believe him dead, though he lives. 'three in a boat, and he who is dead yet lives'. :)

 

As for constraints... Mordeth's transfer seemed to take place instantly, so my guess is that the time constraints are a problem the Dark One faces... either to the aquiring of suitable bodies, as i suspect, or a restraint due to the seal, as has also been suggested though i dont believe it.

[RobertAlexWillis]

As for constraints... Mordeth's transfer seemed to take place instantly

 

Do we really have any idea how long it took? I've never seen a timetable for Fain's stay in Shadar Logoth. I'm not saying it took like a week or anything, but nothing indicates it was instantaneous ...

 

As for the boat and bond... its likely the bond sticks to moridin, and gets severed when Alivia killed him, leading to the mourning and Rand's death and so forth. There seem to be indications that, for a time, the three girls will believe him dead, though he lives. 'three in a boat, and he who is dead yet lives'.

 

Why would the bond stick to the body? Sorry, that's pure speculation, with no evidence either way, since we've never seen anything remotely like it with someone who was bonded ...

[Luckers]

It would need to take place in the instant of leaving the city, as Moiraine discribes it. In any case we know it took relatively little time. No more then a day. All im saying is that the constraint on the Dark One does not seem to be universal. The Dreamwalkers and the Hedgehog seem to be instantaneous too. And Machin Shin, by the sounds of it.

 

Why would the bond stick to the body? Sorry, that's pure speculation, with no evidence either way, since we've never seen anything remotely like it with someone who was bonded ...

 

Not entirely, the bond is described in phsycial terms with reference to injury, physical state, psycho-emotional state, etc. The one thing it doesn't access is thought, which seems to be more a facet of the soul.

 

That being said, my point was more in the nature of the mourning described in the dreams and visions. I suspect the bond will be severed, either when the body-swap occurs or when Alivia kills Moridin, leading to the belief that Rand died.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well ... I've already said I don't necessarily believe it, but its plausible. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[KaptainKaos]

I don't really think it is possible but there is a interesting thought in the theory so I will agree with both Roberts that we should just wait to read and find out.

 

I am not going to go any further with my questions because Crazy Mike has tired me out with his thought processes already today so I don't even want to try and tackle Luckers craziness. (Just had to add a joke and another burn to Crazy Mike in there Luckers don't balefire me please.)

[Luckers]

I major in religious studies, with a minor in philosophy, psychology, and sociology. I get accused of insanity at least twice a day. Dont worry, it doesn't phase me.

 

I am curious about why you don't believe though? Any specific points?

[RobertAlexWillis]

I major in religious studies, with a minor in philosophy, psychology, and sociology. I get accused of insanity at least twice a day. Dont worry, it doesn't phase me.

 

You ARE insane.

 

By the way, were you asking me, or were you asking the Kaptain?

[Luckers]

Kaptain. Don't let that stop you though. :)

[RobertAlexWillis]

Oh, well, I just disagree because I don't like it, and you don't have enough proof that I feel obligated to admit you're right.

[Luckers]

But... but... i said it is the case. Isn't that enough for you? *looks genuinely confused*

 

 

hehe. I begin to understand Mikes mentality. How scary.

[RobertAlexWillis]

You forgot the bold caps. :roll:

[KaptainKaos]

You want to know why I don't believe the body switching thing... well, Robert already said it sounds cheesy which it does but that isn't really why I don't believe it. There aren't really any specific points it's a combination of so many, I'll try to keep the list understandable. First, Nicola's foretelling with Rand's three gals on a boat mourning him on a funeral bier, it seems this boat is in a body of water and my thought is this water is the water surrounding Tar Valon. But wherever the water is why would they be mourning with Rand's body there and all if Rand was in Moridin's body and could just tell them he was fine by the time they got a funeral together, got into a boat and started going wherever. This is all just assuming the bond would be destroyed when Rand and Moridin switched bodies.

 

Also Min says that Alivia must help Rand die not Moridin in Rand's body Rand himself, yeah there could be a mix up but Min sees signs and symbols that she can interpret so I can't she how she would see Rand's body and Alivia helping it die I think she saw some type of symbols that told her Alivia will help Rand die which means Rand himself not just his body Moridin's soul.

 

When I was reading through some of Robert Jordan's interviews I also saw a question about souls and going from a dead body to take over a living body and even though I know there are ways for the soul to leave a living body always exceptions of course. The process of moving a soul is difficult let alone some unknown power moving two souls at the precise moment. Just because their balefire crossed each other somehow this will become the way this complex process will be begun... I think there is another purpose for the streams of balefire crossing and the events that have happened since.

 

Your theory is one that has a lot more thought and logic into it than any Crazy Mike could ever come up with so don't even try to compare yourself to that but I really don't think it is one that matches with the flow of the story so far. There have been prophecies that mean almost exactly what they say there just isn't enough information in the prophecy to get a complete picture but this theory is like a whole new picture. A friend and I are re-reading the series and I told him about your theory and although he seems to want to look for a million reasons why it isn't likely he does also see that it will be job to completely prove that it isn't possible. I have been extremely busy lately with work and things but maybe he will find some evidence that I have missed one way or the other. Or maybe I will remember something when I am not as tired as I am now and post it for you to think about.

[Luckers]

First, Nicola's foretelling with Rand's three gals on a boat mourning him on a funeral bier, it seems this boat is in a body of water and my thought is this water is the water surrounding Tar Valon. But wherever the water is why would they be mourning with Rand's body there and all if Rand was in Moridin's body and could just tell them he was fine by the time they got a funeral together, got into a boat and started going wherever. This is all just assuming the bond would be destroyed when Rand and Moridin switched bodies.

 

 

If the bond was severed, and the nature of what Rand had undertaken in fighting the Dark One hard... as it should have been anyway, i see no reason that it wouldn't take him some time to let the ladies know he was alright. If they found Rand's dead body while Rand himself is still reeling in shock from everything that is going on (something that may take weeks, or even months). i think they would definately throw a funeral.

 

Also Min says that Alivia must help Rand die not Moridin in Rand's body Rand himself, yeah there could be a mix up but Min sees signs and symbols that she can interpret so I can't she how she would see Rand's body and Alivia helping it die I think she saw some type of symbols that told her Alivia will help Rand die which means Rand himself not just his body Moridin's soul.

 

Help Rand die. The very word imply the intentional aid of Alivia in the destruction of Rand's physical body. That the two of them work together to bring about his physical death. After all we know in this series that death is a thing tied to the body, not the soul. To die is to bring about the end of the physical encapatulation of the soul.

 

When I was reading through some of Robert Jordan's interviews I also saw a question about souls and going from a dead body to take over a living body and even though I know there are ways for the soul to leave a living body always exceptions of course. The process of moving a soul is difficult let alone some unknown power moving two souls at the precise moment. Just because their balefire crossed each other somehow this will become the way this complex process will be begun... I think there is another purpose for the streams of balefire crossing and the events that have happened since.

 

I simply disagree with this. We have seen a multitude of characters, both minor, major and not even human manipulate, steal, remove, input and destroy souls. It seems to me to be something that can happen at the drop of a hat. I mean Mordeth gained the ability to remove someones soul and input his own from being angry...

 

The method is there... the link created from the balefire provides the path. All that is needed is the catalyst... which i suspect will be the fight between Moridin and Rand.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Help Rand die. The very word imply the intentional aid of Alivia in the destruction of Rand's physical body.

 

Actually, Luckers, that assumes that the viewing Min had of the Pattern sees "Rand" as "Rand's body". I actually think it would be more likely to "view" (I know I'm personifying the Pattern here as a consciousness providing Min with interpretation, but follow me here) "Rand" as Rand's soul, not his body. The fact that we know bodies can change, without over-riding the soul (Halima/Aran'gar/Balthamel) indicates to me that regarding the persona, the soul is more meaningful than the body. So ... killing Rand's old body after he has left it wouldn't really qualify as helping Rand die.

 

I much prefer my own idea of Alivia giving him a sort of "push" into the Dark One's prison, letting him duke it out with Shai'tan there while the Bore heals.

[RobertAlexWillis]

We have seen a multitude of characters, both minor, major and not even human manipulate, steal, remove, input and destroy souls.

 

Actually, we've only seen one being actually put any soul into another body. Shai'tan. And RJ did state that stripping the old one of its previous owner took some amount of time.

 

After the soul is secured, then a suitable body must be acquired and stripped of the (former) owner's memory and soul to make way for the favored one.

(Tor's Question of the Week, December 23rd, 2003 - April 20th, 2004, Question Number 3, quote pulled from http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152 )

 

 

There is a fundamental difference between what Dreamwalkers do (their soul is still connected to their body, even if their consciousness is not seated there for a time) and what you are proposing. And the case is the same with the Spirit traps we have seen. They have all been about removing the soul from the body. The only being we've seen who can put someone else's soul in is the Dark One.

 

Notice I deliberately said "someone else's soul" because Mordeth is an exception, regarding his own soul. But Mordeth is really an exception to every rule. No one else displays his powers/abilities, or even related powers/abilities. Even Mashadar just ripped souls out. And even Mordeth didn't pull a double switch. Actually, the best he managed was a partial combining. Fain had a strange soul, yes, but Moridin's is at least as strange, and who knows what Rand's soul is like.

 

I can't say "no, this cannot happen". It could. But it seems very unlikely.

[KaptainKaos]

If they found Rand's dead body while Rand himself is still reeling in shock from everything that is going on (something that may take weeks, or even months).

 

It may take weeks or months but it wouldn't be too safe to say that it would take longer for Rand to recover and seek out his girls than it would for all the clean up that has to be done after the Last Battle before preparing for Rand's funeral and then the actual funeral itself along with getting a boat on water somewhere with a funeral bier. There are just too many variables for this theory to be anything more than one of the many theories. I will give you kudos because it is a theory that immediately made me go 'No definitely not gonna happen' but now I am thinking 'hey it's better than Rand dying altogether.'

 

About the whole Alivia thing I just thought that since Min did one of her 'I don't know what it means but Alivia will help you die' statements that it meant she had the knowledge that it was Rand his whole self at the core not just his body.

 

As far as you disagreeing with my thought that there is another purpose for the streams of balefire crossing I understand that completely because you believe you know the purpose and I am just up in the air about what it is, I just don't think that this is a link between Rand and Moridin so they can switch bodies I think it may be a different type of link for something hopefully more interesting.

 

Remember this too Luckers, in real life I look a lot like Rand is described even my eyes change colors as Rand's seem to except I am only 6'1" and I don't want him losing my body for some blonde one, us Aiel need our famous looks to stay on the Dragon.

[Luckers]

Actually, Luckers, that assumes that the viewing Min had of the Pattern sees "Rand" as "Rand's body". I actually think it would be more likely to "view" (I know I'm personifying the Pattern here as a consciousness providing Min with interpretation, but follow me here) "Rand" as Rand's soul, not his body. The fact that we know bodies can change, without over-riding the soul (Halima/Aran'gar/Balthamel) indicates to me that regarding the persona, the soul is more meaningful than the body. So ... killing Rand's old body after he has left it wouldn't really qualify as helping Rand die.

 

I was speaking more of the connotations of the term die. Souls live on after death, indicating to me that death is a physical term. The words she spoke came with the viewing and were part of it, and that viewing specifically said 'help Rand die'. the word die was as much of that viewing as the word help.

 

And yes, Rand too was as much of the viewing. The implications? Well first we must concider if the facet personality of the soul is the person or the body is. Given the differences between LTT and Rand i would suggest that the facet personality is a result of the physicalized existence of the soul at any specific time. LTT and Rand as characters are both informed by their experiences in the physical world... their life... their nurture. The soul itself seems to... encapulate this, but not be it, ro else the two would be the same.

 

From this i think that 'help Rand die' connotes the death of the physical existence that led to the Rand persona, and that Rand himself will partake in this willingly, aiding Alivia as much as she is aiding him. It becomes either assisted suicide, or that the two of them are killing Rand's original body, with Moridin inside.

 

Actually, we've only seen one being actually put any soul into another body. Shai'tan. And RJ did state that stripping the old one of its previous owner took some amount of time.

 

Mordeth put his soul in Fain's body. Perrin might have been said to have done the same with Faile also. The fact that souls can leave and enter bodies is common... incredibly so. Dreamwalkers, Machin Shin, Mashadar, ter'angreal (and therefore channelers).

 

Quote:

After the soul is secured, then a suitable body must be acquired and stripped of the (former) owner's memory and soul to make way for the favored one.

(Tor's Question of the Week, December 23rd, 2003 - April 20th, 2004, Question Number 3, quote pulled from http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152 )

 

That doesn't say it takes time to achieve that, and given that Machin Shin can strip a body of its soul in moments, i doubt it would take the Dark One much longer. My guess is the securing of the soul is whats difficult, something backed up by the fact that it becomes impossible when balefire is involved... likely because the dark one was expecting it he can't find it.

 

There is a fundamental difference between what Dreamwalkers do (their soul is still connected to their body, even if their consciousness is not seated there for a time) and what you are proposing. And the case is the same with the Spirit traps we have seen. They have all been about removing the soul from the body. The only being we've seen who can put someone else's soul in is the Dark One.

 

Their soul is still connected because it would be foolish to sever that connection, but it IS their soul that is leaving when they dreamwalk. We know that from Perrin. Literally, when he went to far his soul was missing. It is a function of the soul.

 

As for the rest, your not concidering the obvious point, that if their soul was removed, or left, then it returned. And in the case of Perrin, Faile, and that trap, Faile's soul was removed by an external source, and returned by an external source. Perrin had to find Faile--he couldn't break the webs of the weave simply by finding her, he had to find her because his ability was required to return her. It was something he did with her soul, not simply breaking the webs that contained her (because he couldn't do that).

 

My point is that to varying degrees we have seen souls leave, enter, be removed, be put in a body. We have seen this done intentionally by the person, intentionally by other forces, and unintentionally by random forces. The movement of the soul is, quite frankly, a common thing. And given Rand and Moridin's mental connection--a connection that is strong enough for thought to cross over--and thought is the result of the facet personality of the soul, indicating a connection between their souls.

 

Nah, i dont think its unlikely.

 

It may take weeks or months but it wouldn't be too safe to say that it would take longer for Rand to recover and seek out his girls than it would for all the clean up that has to be done after the Last Battle before preparing for Rand's funeral and then the actual funeral itself along with getting a boat on water somewhere with a funeral bier. There are just too many variables for this theory to be anything more than one of the many theories. I will give you kudos because it is a theory that immediately made me go 'No definitely not gonna happen' but now I am thinking 'hey it's better than Rand dying altogether.'

 

It need not take several months. If Rand's body were found at the end of the day on the day of the attack on Shayol Ghoul--as it will be, whatever happens, then it will be travelled back. The funeral might take place as much as a day or two after that. They wouldn't have time to wait (and very likely it will only involve a few people. Doubtlessly there will still be skirmishes going on with the Shadowspawn and so forth. Everyone will be otherwise occupied.) It will be a small affair, with the girls and a few others.

 

It seems remarkably likely that that would happen in any case...

 

About the whole Alivia thing I just thought that since Min did one of her 'I don't know what it means but Alivia will help you die' statements that it meant she had the knowledge that it was Rand his whole self at the core not just his body.

 

That vision seemed very specific to me. The wording as much a part of it as anything else. Alivia. will help. Rand die. Alivia will aid Rand in bringing about the death of his physical body.

 

Remember this too Luckers, in real life I look a lot like Rand is described even my eyes change colors as Rand's seem to except I am only 6'1" and I don't want him losing my body for some blonde one, us Aiel need our famous looks to stay on the Dragon.

 

Lol. Moridin has dark hair. And keep in mind too that Rand's body is pretty screwed up. He has two never healing wounds, no hand, potentially permenant eye damage, and lets not pause to wonder about the long term effects that taint has had on him.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well, that wasn't really new ground for either of us. We still have to wait and see. Just for fun though ....

 

 

From this i think that 'help Rand die' connotes the death of the physical existence that led to the Rand persona, and that Rand himself will partake in this willingly, aiding Alivia as much as she is aiding him. It becomes either assisted suicide, or that the two of them are killing Rand's original body, with Moridin inside.

 

I've already said I'm going with assisted suicide. And if Rand's soul permanently leaves his body, then it ceases to be Rand's body. If the act of switching is the death of the old Rand (the physical existence that led to the Rand persona) then Alivia's help would have to be deliberately facilitating the switch, not killing the body after it has become the physcial existence of the Moiridin persona. Also, there is an important difference between being reborn from the Wheel and being transmigrated. When transmigrated, the persona goes with you. When you are reborn, it doesn't (at least not in complete fashion, and if it does, you're insane). So a body switch would leave the Rand persona intact in another physical form, which is then fully Rand. Killing Moridin in Rand's former husk is no longer causing Rand al'Thor to die.

 

We disagree there, I know.

 

Mordeth put his soul in Fain's body. Perrin might have been said to have done the same with Faile also. The fact that souls can leave and enter bodies is common... incredibly so. Dreamwalkers, Machin Shin, Mashadar, ter'angreal (and therefore channelers).

 

I deliberately acknowledged and addressed the Mordeth exception. None of the others involve entering another body in any way.

 

That doesn't say it takes time to achieve that, and given that Machin Shin can strip a body of its soul in moments, i doubt it would take the Dark One much longer. My guess is the securing of the soul is whats difficult, something backed up by the fact that it becomes impossible when balefire is involved... likely because the dark one was expecting it he can't find it.

 

Actually, the word "after" denotes sequence, and sequence denotes a time frame. Which is precisely why balefire defeats the Dark One's ability in this area.

 

 

Their soul is still connected because it would be foolish to sever that connection, but it IS their soul that is leaving when they dreamwalk. We know that from Perrin. Literally, when he went to far his soul was missing. It is a function of the soul.

 

As for the rest, your not concidering the obvious point, that if their soul was removed, or left, then it returned. And in the case of Perrin, Faile, and that trap, Faile's soul was removed by an external source, and returned by an external source. Perrin had to find Faile--he couldn't break the webs of the weave simply by finding her, he had to find her because his ability was required to return her. It was something he did with her soul, not simply breaking the webs that contained her (because he couldn't do that).

 

Actually, maintaining a connection means it isn't completely removed. What would have killed Faile (and Perrin) is if it had finished being completely removed. And Perrin could only put her back into her own body, and only in the time frame allowed before the connection to guide his efforts existed.

 

Now, that said, you may point out that Rand and Moridin have a connection to guide the process. That is true, and it is the only reason I don't say what you are proposing is impossible. But the connection between them is not the same as the connection each has between their own native body and their "soul".

 

My point is that to varying degrees we have seen souls leave, enter, be removed, be put in a body. We have seen this done intentionally by the person, intentionally by other forces, and unintentionally by random forces. The movement of the soul is, quite frankly, a common thing.

 

We have seen them leave, enter, be removed from, and put back into their own bodies. That is common. We have, as yet, only seen the Dark One put anyone into someone else's body.

[Luckers]

I disagree, Mordeth and the Faile incident both involved putting a soul into another body. I get your objections but i dont agree. And the combination of all those many different methods, paths and manipulations of the soul that we have seen, suggesting another possible one does not seem even remotely far-fetched to me.

 

Additionally, remember that i have admitted that we have never seen exactly Rand and Moridin's situation.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I disagree, Mordeth and the Faile incident both involved putting a soul into another body.

 

As I said, I see Mordeth's exception ... how was the Faile incident about someone else's body? Both Faile and Perrin were out of their bodies, and returned only to their own bodies ...

[Luckers]

But it was Perrin that facilitated that. Without his direct action Faile would never have returned to her body showing that it was the direct action of another person that led to Faile's soul being returned to her body.

[drakhon]

Faile's soul was imprisoned in T'A'R by the hedgehog trap, but still connected to her body in the same way that Perrin's was connected to his even though he was there so strongly. He freed her from her bindings, allowing her soul to return to her body on its own.

[Luckers]

Unless you are suggesting that Perrin can channel, that is quite impossible. If faile's continued imprisonment was a function of the weaves, and only required their removement for her to sink back into her body... well Perrin couldn't have achieved that. This suggests that the weaves simply removed her from her body, and her imprisonment resulted from her inability to return--which indeed matches Perrin needing to find her. And therefore also that a direct action on Perrin's part was required for her to return to her body.

 

From this two deductions are viable. Faile was caught in a dream, like the one Sheriam and the others are caught in, and Perrin was needed to break the dream. Only there are several problems with this. One, a person entering a dream is bound by the laws of the dream. To break it they must deny its reality. Perrin embraces its reality and tried to fight it on its terms--which should never have worked. He would have been folded into it--as indeed he was... you see him fighting it, being hurt by it, failing to save Faile. Nothing in those actions indicate he was trying to break the dream itself.

 

Now concider when Moghedian traps Egwene in a dream. She doesn't fight it, she flees it. She escapes. Now presumably Faile couldn't do that--i rather suspect the ter'angreal, like the Accepted test, draws on its victim to construct the dream. Presumably she couldn't flee because in some senses she wasn't the dream... plus obviously she would have done so, even by accident, by the desperate need she felt to escape (remember to comfine someone you need to will them to stay confined like Nynaeve did with Moghedian and the a'dam. She had to hold it as being there, on Moghedian. I doubt the ter'angreal was capable of asserting that sort of will, therefore it makes sense to enfold Faile's nature in the dream itself... which matches the nature of the dream we see. Its personal)

 

In any case, it wasn't until Perrin found Faile that she was returned. Since it seems unlikely he could break her dream in the way he did (to break a dream you do have to deny its reality, he did not do that), and she couldn't leave herself, he must have facilitated her leaving. He found her soul, and through his ability and action, put it back in her body. She could not have done it, and it could not have been because he broke the dream that was binding her.

[Shaidar_Rannow]

Why would the bond stick to the body? Sorry, that's pure speculation, with no evidence either way, since we've never seen anything remotely like it with someone who was bonded ...

 

Take TAR for example. If the bond was to the soul then any bonded person could know where it was in TAR they were.

 

On a side note however...why cant you all face the fact that Rand dies to save the world???? Not every story end in hugs and kisses ya'll. Your trying to hold on to something fleeting here...let go...

[Luckers]

Oh i more then could accpet, indeed id prefer it to the Body-Swap, which frankly i find a bit crass... its just what i think RJ is going to do.

 

You see there is evidence against Rand's death being final. Prophecies about his dead body fading away or being someone else, the finn stating that to live, you must die, implying that he lives after he is dead, the specific nature of Alivia 'helping him die'.

 

Altogether, the liklyhood of him simply dying seems low.