Questions about the Eye of the World?

[humanraindelay]

When the gang finally finds the Green Man, they are confronted by Aginor and Balthamel. Aginor refers to Mat as an old thing, an old friend, an old enemy. What could he have meant by that? Could Mat and Perrin be reborn to?

 

 

When Rand defeats Ba'alzamon, is it an image of the dark one touching the world or is it Aginor desguised as the dark one. Did that flight of stairs Rand climb take him to Shayol Ghul?

 

 

Was that image of his mom really his mom or a trick to try and get rand to turn? After he saves her, she thanks him. I think if it was just a trick, she would have just vanished.

[Luckers]

When the gang finally finds the Green Man, they are confronted by Aginor and Balthamel. Aginor refers to Mat as an old thing, an old friend, an old enemy. What could he have meant by that? Could Mat and Perrin be reborn to?

 

He was referring to the taint of Shadar Logoth in Mat--similar in nature to the evil of the shadow, and thus an old friend, and yet the antithesis of the evil of the shadow, and thus an old enemy. It's how they found the eye, following that taint.

 

When Rand defeats Ba'alzamon, is it an image of the dark one touching the world or is it Aginor desguised as the dark one. Did that flight of stairs Rand climb take him to Shayol Ghul?

 

It is Ishamael. How far have you read in the books?

 

 

Was that image of his mom really his mom or a trick to try and get rand to turn? After he saves her, she thanks him. I think if it was just a trick, she would have just vanished.

 

We do not know. Ghosts are rampant later, so it's certainly possible. No conclusion has been reached on this.

[humanraindelay]

I read them all but the Gathering Storm. Couldn't remember if it was ever explained.

[Red2111]

it's hinted at through the forsaken that Elan is parrading around as Ba'alzamon. 

 

i think it was lanfear that said something about ishamael liked to call himself that.

 

also that the dreams with Ba'alzamon stop after tDR when Ba'alzamon/Ishamael is killed.

 

and at the end of tDR, Moraine says she believes that Ba'alzamon was indeed Ishamael

[Luckers]

Actually it's Egwene that provides the characters with the knowledge that Ba'alzamon was Ishamael--she recites the document Verin reads her.

 

That being said it is confirmed for the reader in far more concise terms, including RJ directly stating it. The fiery eyes and mouth, by the way, are a result of him using the True Power too much--they are an advanced form of the saa.

 

Incidentally there is also some question was to whether he was in fact 'parading' as Ba'alzammon. The Light think Ba'alzammon is the Trolloc name for the Dark One, but we don't know that for sure. Ishamael has been using the name and the sign since the Trolloc Wars, its possible the Light simply assumed that the banners of the Heart of the Dark refered to the Dark One, when really they were speaking of Ishamael, who was, unaware by the Light, commanding them at the time.

 

I don't see the Dark One allowing Ishamael to put on airs and take a title belonging to him. The Dark One is pretty alien, but one reinforced thing about him is that he is very jealous.

[Red2111]

so in a way the torllocs veiw Elan as their "creator" or their "dark one" and use it as a nick name.

 

 

 

 

[Luckers]

No, neither. I'm saying that ba'alzammon may never have been the Trolloc name for the Dark One. It means Heart of Dark, and in a very real sense that is what Ishamael served as--the organisational centre of the Shadow.

 

The Light simply assumed the Trollocs were speaking of the Dark One--and why shouldn't they, they had no knowledge that Ishamael was still active.

[Balefire to da face!]

Actually it's Egwene that provides the characters with the knowledge that Ba'alzamon was Ishamael--she recites the document Verin reads her.

 

That being said it is confirmed for the reader in far more concise terms, including RJ directly stating it. The fiery eyes and mouth, by the way, are a result of him using the True Power too much--they are an advanced form of the saa.

 

Incidentally there is also some question was to whether he was in fact 'parading' as Ba'alzammon. The Light think Ba'alzammon is the Trolloc name for the Dark One, but we don't know that for sure. Ishamael has been using the name and the sign since the Trolloc Wars, its possible the Light simply assumed that the banners of the Heart of the Dark refered to the Dark One, when really they were speaking of Ishamael, who was, unaware by the Light, commanding them at the time.

 

I don't see the Dark One allowing Ishamael to put on airs and take a title belonging to him. The Dark One is pretty alien, but one reinforced thing about him is that he is very jealous.

 

Damn Luckers, couldn't you have told me that before I started my reread so I could look out for nuances in that area? :P Oh well, that'll be something to look out for on my next reread when ToM comes out :D

 

It seems plausible. I know that on my last reread I noticed multiple times where Ishy is speaking in what seems like a pumped up egotistical manner, but takes on a new meaning when you know who he really is. Stuff like "You will serve the Dark One or you will die, worm!".

 

Since there are also times when he refers to himself as Ba'alzamon I wonder, is it a consistent thing where he refers to himself as Ba'alzamon, but uses "The Dark One" in more ambigious terms? Would certainly help your case. That would be absolutely awsome if it were, a riddle within a riddle.....

 

I just always thought Ishy started out half mad masquarading as the DO, and went completely bonkers by the end thinking he was the DO. I think multiple Forsaken have also thought as much. I don't think the DO would punish Ishy for playing the part. Ishy and the DO have a special connection, I think. Ishy is the only one that truely beleives in the DU's "cause, and even after everything that's happened, Ishy is not only not mindtrapped/reigned in like all the other resuurect-ies, he is still frickin Nae'blis!

 

And to answer the original post, it is shown countless times that Ba'alzamon in the first three books is Ishy.

 

Also, one last point, the staircase Rand used is actually Skimming. The same rarely seen method from the end of book 4 when he used it to chase Asmo to Rhuidien to the end of book 5 when he moved his troops to Camlyn. That seems to be the forgotten bastard child of traveling since Gateways were discovered by just about everybody very soon afterwards. I think we might have seen the Ways used more then frickin Skimming :D