The size of Shadar Logoth and bad eye sight

[magnutz]

Ok, in EotW (Book 1) the party runs towards Tar Valon and they get pushed hard by Halfmen and trollocs. They find themselves forced to enter Shadar Logoth.

 

Now, I wonder about that. They ride and ride through the forests and onto fields but they don't see the bloody city until they crest that final hill?! And Rand exclaims thinking it the biggest city ever and the description of it makes it MASSIVE by any standard. Wouldn't this city have been visible from.. Seanchan?! have any of you thought about this?

 

And I have a feeling that it isn't the only place where the characters in this awesome saga come upon super large structures totally uaware of them eventho .. the stuff is HUGE.

 

Thoughts?

[Roxinos]

You also have to remember that Rand and co. have no point of reference. Shadar Logoth is, for all intents and purposes, the first city that he's ever visited. It is certainly large, but in the eyes of a farmboy, any city is large. Just notice that he has a similar reaction when he goes to Baerlon and an even greater reaction when he reaches Caemlyn.

 

It's less a note on the size of the city itself, but rather the size it seems to be when viewed through the eyes of someone who's never seen a city.

[magnutz]

You also have to remember that Rand and co. have no point of reference. Shadar Logoth is, for all intents and purposes, the first city that he's ever visited. It is certainly large, but in the eyes of a farmboy, any city is large. Just notice that he has a similar reaction when he goes to Baerlon and an even greater reaction when he reaches Caemlyn.

 

It's less a note on the size of the city itself, but rather the size it seems to be when viewed through the eyes of someone who's never seen a city.

 

I thought it must be like that but then again no. The way Rand describes the city makes it very very large. The structures are many times larger than those seen in Baerlon and the towers soar. The bloody thing should have been seen from far away.

 

The city was one of the.. 7 nations? (can't remember what the thing was called)

And even if the city WAS small (which it isn't) you can't blunder into it - going from forest to city not knowing that there is a city infront of you right until you stand 1 inch away from it. So, I'm convinced that something else is at play here.

 

Can it be that Shadar Logoth doesn't want to be seen? Sounds a bit weak as Mordeth wants to lure people into it to take over their souls.

 

Any thought?

[Roxinos]

I stand by my original assertion. Rand's farmboy perspective combined with the hiding aspect of the forest leads to something not easily found or seen (Hell, most people in the world don't know it exists, and those who do tend to be Aes Sedai and they avoid it like the plague it is) makes it seem much larger than it really is.

[magnutz]

I stand by my original assertion. Rand's farmboy perspective combined with the hiding aspect of the forest leads to something not easily found or seen (Hell, most people in the world don't know it exists, and those who do tend to be Aes Sedai and they avoid it like the plague it is) makes it seem much larger than it really is.

 

My thought is that it is a writer's error. The buildings inside could hold the houses seen in Baerlon many times over and they even see a stadium/sports arena INSIDE the city, with rows upon rows of benches. I can't see how that kind of city can ever be missed. Well, if the forest is incredibly dense and tall. But it isn't described as out of the ordinary and IS described at easy to see through.

 

I'll dig up my copy (easily done since I'm re-reading it at the moment) and offer up some nice quotes.

[Roxinos]

How are you making these comparisons in size, eh? It's not like Rand said in his perspective, "Ooo... Several houses in Baerlon could fit into this here building. That's pretty big! Ooo!"

 

If any city were surrounded by a forest, you wouldn't be able to see the city until you were right up on it. No matter how towering the structures were. Hell, if Tar Valon were surrounded by a forest, you're unlikely to even be able to see the White Tower except through the canopy and only if you know what you're looking for.

[magnutz]

How are you making these comparisons in size, eh? It's not like Rand said in his perspective, "Ooo... Several houses in Baerlon could fit into this here building. That's pretty big! Ooo!"

 

If any city were surrounded by a forest, you wouldn't be able to see the city until you were right up on it. No matter how towering the structures were. Hell, if Tar Valon were surrounded by a forest, you're unlikely to even be able to see the White Tower except through the canopy and only if you know what you're looking for.

 

I'll return with some quotes. ;) The forest isn't a dense jungle.

[Roxinos]

No. But it's a forest. You ever been to a forest?

[magnutz]

No. But it's a forest. You ever been to a forest?

 

And described as sparse with scant protection. ;) And the city is described as huge. I'll get a few quotes. brb.

[Roxinos]

You do that. I'll be here gloating in my magnificence.

 

I mean waiting.

[magnutz]

Ok, I'll just quote random scenes from the chapter Shadow's Waiting.

 

A very very big fountain! and there are more just like it!

Mat wanted to see everything... They climbed over dusty fountains with basins wide enough to hold everybody in Emond's Field

(Jordan, Robert. The Eye of the World. London, 1995. Page 280.)

 

What is this if not huge?

A palace was plainly a palace, but what was a huge building that was one round, white dome as big as a hill outside and one monstrous room inside?

(Ibid. p280)

 

It continues:

And a walled place, open to the sky and big enough to have held all of Emond's field, surrounded by row on row on row of stone benches?

(Ibid p.280)

 

About the overview of the city:

The largest building in Baerlon woluld have vanished in the shadows of almost anything here... Long walks lined by columns ran hundreds of paces to towers that seemed to reach the sky.

(Ibid. p275)

 

There are more small talk about the size but I won't quote them. See for yourself. I believe that the city should have been seen from the moon!

[Roxinos]

*shakes head*

 

You see literal hugeness, I see hyperbole.

[magnutz]

*shakes head*

 

You see literal hugeness, I see hyperbole.

 

Hyperbole if one of the characters was behind the retelling of the size of the city. Not when narrated in 3rd person omniscient. You lose! *chuckles*

[Roxinos]

Jordan never narrates in third person omniscient. The narration for the Wheel of Time is nearly always third person limited.

[Alghar Khan]

It's clear that it's a really big city. From the chapter Magnutz cited. And also from the Cleansing. And from that Aiel disappearing and much later reappering. And so on.

[Roxinos]

I'm not denying it is a large city. I'm denying how large magnutz seems to believe it is. It's obviously a large city. It was one of the largest cities at the time.

[magnutz]

I'm not denying it is a large city. I'm denying how large magnutz seems to believe it is. It's obviously a large city. It was one of the largest cities at the time.

 

Now you change direction! ;) I argue that the city is large enought that you can't - in any forest - sneak up on it.

[Roxinos]

I've never changed direction. I've always stood that it's a large city.

 

And I stand that you obviously can sneak up on the city because that's exactly what happened. Your evidence that it is so large it HAD to have been seen is moot for two reasons. One, it wasn't seen until they found it. Two, your evidence for its size is distorted by the characters' perceptions.

 

Also, there is no reason to believe that Shadar Logoth would not want to be found. In fact, the opposite is true. Mordeth certainly wanted to be found to convince someone to take something out of the city because then he would be free. So you have no point.

[magnutz]

I've never changed direction. I've always stood that it's a large city.

 

And I stand that you obviously can sneak up on the city because that's exactly what happened. Your evidence that it is so large it HAD to have been seen is moot for two reasons. One, it wasn't seen until they found it. Two, your evidence for its size is distorted by the characters' perceptions.

 

Also, there is no reason to believe that Shadar Logoth would not want to be found. In fact, the opposite is true. Mordeth certainly wanted to be found to convince someone to take something out of the city because then he would be free. So you have no point.

 

I would agree with you if the descriptions of the city and its size had been (are) less fact like. You see, the narrator doesn't "ooh" and "aaaaah" over the different buildings - it simply states that the buildings ARE HUGE. Even giving examples that are no hyperboles. You might see them as such, but then I must say I believe you need to read the passage again.

 

Take a normal forest and stick a large city into the middle of it and try to walk/ride/x towards it without seeing it until you bang your face into its walls and I'll call you blind. You would see the city from far away. Quite a few of the spires/towers/domes would be visible at least.

 

Aridhol/Shadar Logoth/Shadow's Waiting wants to be found, the evil wants to spread. So the city isn't trying to conceal itself either.

 

I feel that RJ sometimes made structures or armies a bit bigger than he should have (IMO). Having 30 000+ here and there moving as if the army had only a few hundred men.. I mean, the foraging and such would have laid waste to the entire region and they stay in one place for extended periods of time.

 

This and the Shadar Logoth "situation" have bothered me when I re-read the story. Sometimes the proportions don't fit.

 

I have many pointes and they are made as well.

[cosmicpanda]

what if the final hill was like, really big?

[magnutz]

The narrative style is a bit odd, to me, since it changed pov from different characters and also shows signs of being omniscient. The narrator can tell what the characters are feeling and what they are thinking. That is omniscient to me.

 

And the three young men, they are peasants with no experience of wthe world utside the Two Rivers, but only Mat has anything like hyperbole to his character. Rand and Perrin do not.

 

Oh well. I like to discuss things.. even if I don't agree with your thoughts i do agree that we disagree. ;)

 

I am still right, though.  ;D

[Roxinos]

Even giving examples that are no hyperboles.

 

Provide me with samples of the text that aren't hyperbole.

 

You would see the city from far away.

 

Why? The immediate city is surrounded by forest. Beyond the forest are a series of hills.

 

Take the Colosseum in Rome for example. It's huge, right? Well, stand about a mile away and put a hill in-between you and it, and suddenly it disappears.

 

Now imagine you're running towards Rome...being chased by giant monsters and creatures that strike fear into your heart with a simple look. And if they catch you, you die. Not to mention the person who is leading you is tossing fire, lightning, heaving the earth around her...you're distracted to say the least.

 

Given those circumstances it is entirely reasonable a person would miss noticing a city until they're at the city.

 

Aridhol/Shadar Logoth/Shadow's Waiting wants to be found, the evil wants to spread. So the city isn't trying to conceal itself either.

 

You're the one who mentioned it first. "Can it be that Shadar Logoth doesn't want to be seen?" I was merely responding to that.

 

I mean, the foraging and such would have laid waste to the entire region and they stay in one place for extended periods of time.

 

Foraging?

 

Dude...armies don't forage. They have supply trains. Any army of a significant size (in those days) had a certain civilian population to maintain the day to day routine that soldiers can't. So you don't lay waste to the entire region.

[Roxinos]

You should learn about literary techniques before you start using them.

 

Third person limited means the narrator is speaking in the third person, but is limited to the knowledge/experience of a certain character/perspective.

 

Third person omniscient means the narrator is speaking in the third person, but is not limited in its knowledge at all. It knows what all characters/perspectives think/feel at the same time at all times.

 

Hyperbole is a method of describing things. Like if you're hungry and exclaim, "I'm so hungry, I could eat a horse!" I would maybe agree that Mat's personality is a bit more exaggerated than Rand or Perrin's, but everyone uses hyperbole in their descriptions of things. You, me, Rand, Mat, Perrin.

[magnutz]

Ok, I thought I said "that Shadar Logoth" had no intention of hiding but must have thought it and written something else. Oh well.

 

Hyperbole = exaggeration. I can't say that the description is exaggerated. It is told "matter of factly" simply stating how large everything is.

 

Then surrounding areas around Shadar Logoth isn't well described but there are no SUPER hills, they don't climb any mountains and there are no super dense forests. The city should have been spotted long before they reached its gates. Pursued or not.

 

The Aiel "army" did foage and so must many other Randland armies have done. The bad winter and then the really bad summer heat also makes it hard to "buy" the largeness of the marching armies. RJ does state (in the story) that they have problems supplying the armies with food but.. I feel he made the armies a bit too large for what the environment could be able to handle. There are, as I've said, a number of things that bother me about this. Shadar Logoth and the armies.

 

I'll check into th pages that covers the info about how large the hole was (where Shadar Logoth once stood). It was large but I can't remember how large.

 

Try being chased in the Italian countryside and steer towards Rome. Let me know if any hill would prevent you from seeing the city from far off.

[magnutz]

You should learn about literary techniques before you start using them.

 

Third person limited means the narrator is speaking in the third person, but is limited to the knowledge/experience of a certain character/perspective.

 

Third person omniscient means the narrator is speaking in the third person, but is not limited in its knowledge at all. It knows what all characters/perspectives think/feel at the same time at all times.

 

Hyperbole is a method of describing things. Like if you're hungry and exclaim, "I'm so hungry, I could eat a horse!" I would maybe agree that Mat's personality is a bit more exaggerated than Rand or Perrin's, but everyone uses hyperbole in their descriptions of things. You, me, Rand, Mat, Perrin.

 

I know of 3rd person omniscient but was unfamilar with the english 3rd person limited. I do know the technique in my own language. But I'd say it is a mix between the two, limited and omnsicient. That is the way it feels anyway. I will keep it in mind when I continue to read. Maybe I'll learn something. ;)

 

The "hyperbole or not" seems moot. The city is very large. That is decided. What I argue for is that it could not have been aproached unknowingly. If you stand within a mile or two from any city of any size you will see it (city, not town or village). Unless the city is hidden by a mountain or a very large hill/low valley.

 

Rand, Mat and Perrin should have seen the bloody thing way before reaching its gates.