Something Troubling about KoD...

[Luckers]

Because he's made it clear that he wants control.

 

The simple fact is if the Dark One wanted the world destroyed using balefire he would have commanded it to be done long since. Simply telling his people that he would save them for a new world that is to come would mean that they would be willing to do it. In the Age of Legends they saw his power, and wouldn't have doubted it. He could have given the commands for all channelers on his side to simultaneously turn massive flows of balefire on the earth. Thousands of channelers would have unravelled the pattern easily. The fact that he didn't is significant. Especially when added to the fact that balefire has effects that are beyond his power to control or influence.

 

He asked Demandred if he was willing to use it because balefire IS a powerful tool and weapon... in small, controlled usages. Its like a nuclear bomb. Yes, it can be useful, but it can also be dangerous to the one who uses it. Including the Dark One.

 

The Dark Ones intentions are, i suspect, to destroy reality--though i suspect on Ishy knew of it. But not like this. Not when it could easily slap him in the face too.

[Jonn]

Well, I have been thinking along the same line. It is my opinion that RJ's depiction of the use of the rod in KoD does not equate with "impossible to control".

 

How clear a view can one really have at 1/2 a mile away, much less the full mile described in the text?

 

Reread the passage that says Birgitte thinks that Asne is aiming directly at Guybon. That also does not equate with "impossible to control". Again this at almost a mile out. As good as a modern sniper rifle with telescoping sighting (according to what I have read about them, as I am not a sniper). If you play golf, imagine a typical par 5. Well, Guybon is 3 times that distance away from Asne. I believe this could be an RJ disconnect. Either that or the BA, especially Asne, have gained increase proficiency with the rod. What, is that too far fetched somehow? Many characters have increased skill sets from where they were in TSR, including better understanding of ter'angreal.

 

And I do have evidence from the text regarding Asne's use of the rod vs. Jeaine's. Clearly Asne is using it with some effectiveness in KoD. Even from the beginning it is Asne who suggests the rod's use, only to have Jeaine balk because of her failures, which appear in the text, and both of us have documented.

 

Your passage contains what I take as evidence to support my claim.

 

Jeaine Caide was swaying, one had to her head, the black rod almost falling from the other.

 

Why is Jeaine dizzy? Perhaps because she doesn't know how to use the rod correctly. (Again a theory, but a plausible one) Note that Asne does not exhibit these signs in KoD.

 

All along Asne presents as being confortable with its use. Jeaine does not. Asne risks confrontation with Moggy by recovering the rod herself in WH, and makes a note of a contingency plan in which she might need to use the rod in a future attempt to capture Elayne and Nynaeve. (WH ch 10)

 

Add also the fact that it is not clear that the "impossible to control" label is something directly transcribed from Corianin Nedeal's notes, or added by Verin herself.

 

All in all, the rod seems pretty controllable to me, despite what the surgeon general's warning says.

 

It's all moot anyway if you're thinking of connecting it to the Asmodean murder. None of sisters who had access to the rod were in Caemlyn at the time and none of them knew how to Travel. No one could have borrowed the thing because it was still in their possesion up until their capture months later. To explain otherwise would be stretching waay too far to make sense.

 

On the issue of its usefulness and controllability...I think we can all agree that it is certainly a dangerous object to anyone it is pointed at. I think that if we are all sensible, it is also obvious that it is rather hard to control given that every time it was used, the user had trouble stopping the flows.

 

On the use of balefire to retrieve a hand...Think about it. Killing a Forsaken would be nice, but why kill her when you can try to pry information out of her. Really, only Rand through Lews Therin knows anything about her reputation or past exploits, so none of the others would fear to hold Semirhage any more than any other Forsaken who was captured. Semirhage already seems quite open to talking freely about being one of the Forsaken. Who knows what clues she'll give on the Dark One's plans just because she is freaking nuts and doesn't care just as long as she can scare you.

Tactically, a hand is not equal in worth to the information that can be gathered from a high ranking captive. Beside it's not like Rand was in any condition to channel and weave balefire at the time, and I doubt any of the others know how to weave it let alone would they be willing to use it.

 

Honestly, that's part of Rand's character that losing a hand...well, he's over it faster than we are folks. Let it go.

[havoc110]

That's part of my point, though, it's a hand, not a loaf of bread.

 

Back to the other thread where we were discussing realism...

 

How realistic is it to be dismissive of losing your hand?

[Jonn]

That's part of my point, though, it's a hand, not a loaf of bread.

 

Back to the other thread where we were discussing realism...

 

How realistic is it to be dismissive of losing your hand?

 

Well, it sucks that you can't get it back if that's what you're getting at, but again, what is there to do about it?

 

You want to risk unravelling existence over your hand? Selfish. It's like, "Oh man, my hand is gone, let's just use the most dangerous weave in existence to get it back."

 

Remember the Ashaman were also there. Rand is very aware that any unfamiliar weave he shows them, they usually pick up right away. I don't think he wants to risk them using balefire for selfish purposes because of his example.

 

THAT is realistic.

 

It shows a lack of maturity to fret over losing your hand when you could have easily lost your life or Min. Really, to risk worsening the unravelling of existence because you want to do sword forms...You're the most powerful channeler alive! You don't need a sword! God, it's like I'm taking crazy pills! :shock: :o :( 8) ...ok, better now.

 

You want him to mourn over his hand, that's fine. He should. He shouldn't obsess with getting it back if it means endangering everyone, including himself.And you know what? he hasn't.

 

Time to move on past the geeky comic book obsession with him Star Trek reasoning his way back to two hands. It's a thematic development, people. Live with it.

[Luckers]

I thought Rand's actions and thoughts about his hand were quite realistic given his personality type.

[Jinjurluv]

Jonn, good point about showing the weave to the Asha'man, I hadn't thought about that. I guess I can live w/ that explanation (as if I have a choice!). Just kinda sad to me. Rand sacrifices so much and most of the people he's doing it all for just don't even seem to realize it, much less appreciate it.

 

I just can't seem to get the idea out of my head that he'd fight much better at TG if he wanted to live and for life to continue than he would if he got there so battered and broken that he WANTED to die. He already is too resigned to the fact that he thinks he will die there (and this is the area I think Cadsuane will teach him in). I can't wait to see how RJ finishes up this story!

[Guest cwestervelt]

There are good points and bad to someone wanting to live in Rand's situation.

 

Someone wanting to live is definitely more motivated to do the best they can. Unfortunately, that desire to live can make them more likely to hesitate when it comes to doing something that would quite possibly get them killed even if it is absolutely necessary.

 

Someone who doesn't want to live isn't as likely to hesitate to do what they must even if they likely won't survive it. The problem you get with that person is that they are more likely to take stupid and unnecessary risks that endanger others and gain nothing.

 

Rand needs to find that precarious balance between the desire to live, and the desire to do what he must to guarantee victory.

[Mashiara]

What would happen if Rand balefired the Dark One with the Choeden Kal?

[Jellybelly]

Robert Jordan has said that the quantity of balefire required to destroy the Dark One would destroy the world. And even if the Choedan Kal could bring about that quantity, the paradox of it would probably rip the Pattern to shreds anyway.

 

And as an aside, he does not even have a body, does he?

[Jonn]

Jonn, good point about showing the weave to the Asha'man, I hadn't thought about that. I guess I can live w/ that explanation (as if I have a choice!). Just kinda sad to me. Rand sacrifices so much and most of the people he's doing it all for just don't even seem to realize it, much less appreciate it.

 

I just can't seem to get the idea out of my head that he'd fight much better at TG if he wanted to live and for life to continue than he would if he got there so battered and broken that he WANTED to die. He already is too resigned to the fact that he thinks he will die there (and this is the area I think Cadsuane will teach him in). I can't wait to see how RJ finishes up this story!

 

That's really what s troubling to me about his losing the hand.

Rand doesn't want anoyone to worry about him too much, so when he loses a hand he doesn't want anyone fussing over it. He lost it and so he should accept it. It's a reasonable trade for his life or Min's life.

Nynaeve heals the wound as best she can, and Rand accepts that. But what does Nynaeve do? She gets angry because Rand has accepted the loss so fast. What does she want him to do, weep like a baby over it? It was a defensive manuever, and nothing he really coud do at the time to prevent that loss. Yet, Nynaeve takes it almost personally that Rand isn't grieving over it like a woman. She makes it about herself, what she wants Rand to do. I don't like that, but hey it's acceptable, because that is Nynaeve's character. She cares about Rand and her heart's in the right place, but of course she's human. She has flaws too.

Him losing a hand and moving on depicts his philosphy when it comes to fighting the Shadow. It's a shame that he lost something dear, but it is ultimately an acceptable loss. If he pauses over it and lingers on that loss, it will inhibit his ability to fight his war. That is why he made the mental remark that at least Bashere understands and moves on.

Everyone comes at Rand from the angle of what they would do in his place. Thing is, no one is in his place but him. It's so easy to judge, to criticise a man in his position, with everything resting on him, but can anyone truly know what it is like to be him? He's been suffering so long, even if it has only been a couple of years since receiving his first marks at Falme. How can anyone be sane after dealing with so much trauma and stress? He's doing what he must and it never lets up with the people who are near him. They constantly hound him with their expectations of him. It drives ME nuts. The nobles, Cadsuane, Nynaeve, heck even Min. Everyone is trying to understand him, to anticipate him, but no one really can nor do I believe that everyone is supposed to understand everything about what he's doing.

If you look at Jesus in the Garden of Gesemane, this is where he expresses his fear and doubts as to where his mission will lead him. I imagine he laments that none of his deciples will really understand his decision to give himself up. Everyone he loves will question his decision. He is the one who will go through the anguish and pain and they must watch. They don't want him to suffer or die, but they are the ones who cannot accept that this is what is required to save them, to save them all.

 

Rand is definitely the Christ figure in the story, so this suffering is so hard for his loved ones to watch or understand. They are angry with him, sad for him, confused by him, but ultimately, it's Rand who has to spill his blood for their salvation. He's spilling his blood before their eyes. The least they can do is stop being so annoying about what THEY think he should act like. It's selfish. It goes the same for us readers too. We overanalyze things that are so mundane for us, but it's a mark of the power this character has over us, that we too want to take a hold of him. We want to control him. We want to save him. That's not our job. That's his job. We can only watch, and wonder, and hope maybe.

[Luckers]

About Nynaeve, and the hand loss, i think she has a valid point. Rand is growing increasingly detatched--its a bad state to be in psychologically. The whole 'grin and bear it' attitude represents a massive ongoing psychological repression which is dangerous.

 

You say they are trying to understand him, but i think they do understand him. Moreover i dont think he does. As Cadsuane says, he needs to be strong so he makes himself hard. Its not working.

 

We, and they, don't need to stand idilly by--that may be nice in fairytales so the hero can go forward to nicely win... but in reality no one is unfalliable--and a big part of what rJ is saying is just that. If i lived in that world i certainly wouldn't leave my fate up to one man who is growing increasingly unstable.

 

I also dont think Rand is supposed to be a Christ figure... Christ had knowledge born from his divinity... he may have doubted himself, but he knew what he had to do and who he had to be. Rand is human, and therefore much more complex in his actions.

[Leafburner]

Well Christ was human, too. I think it's difficult not to notice similarities between Rand and Christ. I'n not implying that there is an intentional connection between the two. There are definately similarities, but no mroe than there are similarities with all characters who have to save the world. Just look at Neo, it's the same thing.

 

I for one really enjoy Nyneave's stubborn attitude. She doesn't like it when she can't fix, or more specifically, heal something. It is part of the force that drives her. It is that attitude that lead to her healing stilling. I think it is futile to wish it to be any other way. Her reaction to Rand's acceptance was not solely based on Rand, but it was also an outlet for her to expell some of the frustration she felt at not being able to fix him. We all know how long and hard she has toiled over the wounds in his side. We heard her distaste and genuine concern for Rand when they linked together to heal Saidin.

 

In her attempts to heal Rand she is feeling some very small portion of what he is going through and she knows it must be difficult for him to deal with. She wants to be there for him, it's all she has ever wanted since she first left the Two Rivers in search of him. But when she can't help by healing, she wants to be able to make him feel better by helping him through the emotional element of his pain. The thing is, that's where Rand draws the line. So it leaves Nyneave feeling very frustrated.

[Luckers]

Actually Neo was supposed to be an image of a boddhisatva. That movie is studied specifically for its revelations of Buddhist philosophy. Literally, i did it in Film and Religion a while back.

 

I think the reason people see christ in Rand is simply a lack of experience... by which i mean Christ is the great leader figure of western culture... but there are far more parallels between Rand and figures of eastern religions. At one stage when he speaks of not taking Elaynes throne he gives almost exactly the same speach Guandi Gong gave when he protected the Imperial Throne of the Jade Emperor in heaven. His vaguely aesthetic attempts to give up emotional connections match Mahavira and Siddhartha the Buddha. His connections to Norse, Egyptian and Roman mythology are obvious. There is even something of the kami of Japan about his beliefs involving the nessisty of knowing the sword and the warrior life. Not to mention the Zen and Daoist beliefs that guide his life (flame and the void, wheel of time). His very nature as a soul that is reborn again and again to aid humanity is the very concept of a buddhist Boddhisatva.

 

When you actually look at Christ and Rand, they arn't very similar in personality or actions. Rand is an emotionally repressed warrior. A general of battle. Christ was an emotionally overactive pacifist. He never fought. Rand comes to destroy his people, and whatever efforts to aid in the betterment of life has been largely second-hand. What he couldn't help doing while he was present,it wasn't his focus, and when push comes to shove it doesn't matter as long as when all is said and done something survives. Christ came to help his people grow... his entire focus was on them, in the end he even died to teach them something.

 

Ideologically, personally and actively there are few similarities.

[Jonn]

Well, coming from a western standpoint, what many understand as the Christ figure is one who is the ultimate martyr. This person must go through all the trials physically and spiritually in order provide salvation for all.

Actually Rand is more of the traditional version of the Messiah, who many believed was supposed to bring salvation to the the people through war and uprising against their worldly enemies.

The idea of being the great martyr is there though. We are left in suspense as to whether he will be martyred, but the prophecies are pointing squarely in that direction.

The point is that Rand is a living prophecy standing in front of these people. They sit there wondering how they can get him to save the world and really they have to come to grips with the fact that this guy is suffering every step of the way. There is no respite for him from it. It must be daunting to deal with someone like that.

Nynaeve must have an idea of what he's going through. She was linked to him for hours at the Cleansing and she has a connection with him through her attempts to heal him. The three women in his life must have an understanding of his pain for they will be most affected by his death on a personal and physical level through their bond.

Other than those people, he must feel very alone with everyone else. Even his best friends are far from him and I don't mean just the distance.

 

We can call him whatever we like: Buddha, Christ, Elijah...We can make the comparisons, but try to imagine someone close to you. Suddenly they are given the task of saving the world from impending doom, a tangible palpable doom, with demons and monsters flying about. You have fire falling from the sky and great waves pulling mountains down. Can you really expect that person to be the same as before when you were kids? You want to talk about psychology and rationale when everything around you is crazy and makes no sense?

 

The truth is that this person isn't going to be the same whether he survives or not. He's not going to deal with his emotions and stress perfectly every time either. You can't expect that he will.

 

The audience should try to accept that fact. We're just along for the ride.

[Luckers]

Which doesn't mean characters like nynaneve shouldn't try to help him deal with it if they do see him not dealing.

[Jonn]

Which doesn't mean characters like nynaneve shouldn't try to help him deal with it if they do see him not dealing.

 

How can he not deal with it? It's his hand, pretty hard not to miss it. Just one more sacrifice he has to make. Just make sure he has it in perspective, that he made a good trade. His life, Min's life, or his hand.

 

How about some perspective coming from the scene. The Ashaman are there, Lew Therin is always there, his beloved Min is there and Semirhage is there. Her (Semirhage) confidence comes from the pain she inflicts and the fear she instills in others. It's alright for Rand to greive, I totally agree, in fact he should greive as soon as he can. Thing is, I think it's a mistake to pressure him at that time to be soft. It shows weakness in a very public situation. Politically, that is a mistake.

 

I think Min understands this more and more and that is why she asserts her will when they are alone and more private. Cadsuane always makes her move in public. Nynaeve has no sense when it comes to rebukes in public. Every rival and half-rival for Rand's authority wants him to crack in public. He cannot afford to do so. A man in his position of power has to be strong and even when hurt, show no vulnerability.

 

It's a tough position to be in and it's also part of his task that he must suffer.

 

You may be right all along, and have his best interests in mind, but the reality is that there are few options for him when it comes to dealing with his emotional state. The smart politician can see that Min is the key in this situation. She is the one who has a guage on his emotional well-being. Rand listens to her as well. I think in a way Nynaeve may be jealous of the fact that she cannot reach Rand on that level anymore. Not really jealous towards min per se, maybe frustrated is the better word. Cadsuane on the other hand just sees Rand as a means to an end. He has to be well so he can win the Last Battle. She has no emotional interest in seeing Rand be healthy other than the fact that he must fulfill his purpose and hers as well.

 

Either way Rand plays it, he can't really win when it comes to this little game that everyone is playing with him.

[Luckers]

he's not though, he's repressing, disassosiating and emotionally compartmentalizing. Three very not-healthy things to do.

[Jonn]

he's not though' date=' he's repressing, disassosiating and emotionally compartmentalizing. Three very not-healthy things to do.[/quote']

 

He's in constant pain. He deals with people every day who want to use him, half want him dead, the other half are scared of him. He has a disembodied voice in his head, and oh yeah, it happens to be a crazy suicidal voice of a 3000 years dead legend.

 

When your entire existence is pain and madness, you can expect that there are going to be some unhealthy things about such a person.

 

There are better ways to help the man besides scolding him, calling him a fool every other sentence, and slapping him in public situations.

[Luckers]

I'm not saying its not reasonable for him to be in the position he's in, nor am i saying Nynaeve's method of approaching the problem is good (though i think Cadsuane's is) im saying its reasonable that when the fate of mankind rests on one person for other people to want to make sure he's stable enough to do the job... but increasingly, Rand isn't. Look at the way he dismissed thinking about Taim as a darkfriend--he's distracted, stressed out and not thinking well, and its getting worse.

[Asajin]

i have to agree bcos when i read that i immeadiately tried thinking of how it cud be significant but nothing came to me. The main character losing his hand for no reason is not RJ's style..

[Luckers]

Well no, I mean... RJ hurts Rand irrevocably all the time.