Stilling, burning out, what's the difference?

[heckles]

I read a thread on here awhile back about this subject, but couldn't find it.  Anyway, this passage in COT (secrets, Egwene's POV) seems to clearly answer the question.

 

 

"...It was harder to make a novice go slowly when you could not point out that she risked ending her quest for the shawl by burning herself out and losing the power forever." 

 

She is speaking about how Leane possesses one of the most recognized faces in the rebel camp, because she was Keeper, then stilled, then Healed and made Aes Sedai again.  Seems cut and dry that she is stating there is not a difference between stilling and burning out.

[42Bonzo88]

    As I have read it, stilling is what you do to a person. Burning out is self inflicted. Now I don't know if both are able to he healed. I don't think anyone has been healed from burning out. Any info. please?

[heckles]

Yeah, I know the difference between the terms, I'm just speaking of the effect of the action on the channeler regarding the possibility of being Healed.  Egwene seems to clearly state that burning oneself out can now be Healed.

[Luckers]

More technically, stilling is a sharp cutting weave made of spirit that slices the ability, whilst burning out involves over-stressing the ability to such a point that it sears it out of the person.

 

I make that distinction because Irgain, Sashelle and Ronaille were all severed by Rand, and yet in the effect they were burned out not stilled--he crushed weaves being maintained by them in flows of spirit, and that over-stressed their abilities. Nevertheless Flinn healed them. On the same path Cyndane was similarily healed, but by a woman and she was almost certainly burned out.

 

So yes, Egwene is correct in this.

[42Bonzo88]

    Sorry, heckles, wasn't sure if you knew.

[trakand_01]

I believe that Setalle Anan was burnt out by playing with ter'angreal that she couldnt handle.

 

As I understand it, burning out is kind of like what happens when you push too much voltage through a device and the fuse blows - you lose your ability to channel because you take too much, and it burns you out. Imagine shouting too loud and losing your voice.

 

Stilling on the other hand is something which is forcibly done to you. You are intentionally severed from the power by someone else.

[nashdude]

I believe that Setalle Anan was burnt out by playing with ter'angreal that she couldnt handle.

 

As I understand it, burning out is kind of like what happens when you push too much voltage through a device and the fuse blows - you lose your ability to channel because you take too much, and it burns you out. Imagine shouting too loud and losing your voice.

 

Stilling on the other hand is something which is forcibly done to you. You are intentionally severed from the power by someone else.

 

I don't think intent makes any difference. Say you cut off a limb on one side of your body, and you burn off the limb on the other. They are both gone, regardless of how they were lost. Similarly, when someone is stilled or burned out, the ability to channel is lost. Period. It's not blocked or disconnected, but REMOVED.

 

The individual still has the ability to sense the Source regardless of how they were cut off from it. This is evidenced in Siuan and Leane on the stilled side, and also in Setalle and the Dumai's Wells Aes Sedai on the burned out side. So if both types of severance still leaves the ability to sense the Source, I believe they can both be Healed.

[Luckers]

Whilst I agree that both can be healed, thats not entirely true. People who have been burned out cannot sense the Source any longer, and we've never had a POV or comment from either Setelle, Ronaille, Sashelle or Irgain to the contrary.

 

And the ability is removed in neither. In stilling, the bridge that allows them to reach the source is cut neatly, but it is still there, in burning the bridge is burned, destroyed along its entire length, but again the base on each side is still there. It has to be, or else it wouldn't be healable.

[nashdude]

Whilst I agree that both can be healed, thats not entirely true. People who have been burned out cannot sense the Source any longer, and we've never had a POV or comment from either Setelle, Ronaille, Sashelle or Irgain to the contrary.

 

You sure? Granted, I've only read through the series twice, but I'm almost POSITIVE that we either have a POV from someone who's been burned out or stilled, or a reference of them speaking about it.

 

And the ability is removed in neither. In stilling, the bridge that allows them to reach the source is cut neatly, but it is still there, in burning the bridge is burned, destroyed along its entire length, but again the base on each side is still there. It has to be, or else it wouldn't be healable.

 

While I agree with your analogy of the bridge, I disagree with how the bridge is structured. The individual only has ONE HALF of the necessary bridge. The other half is rooted in the Source. When the bridge is destroyed (however it happens) the individual is only left with HIS/HER END of the destroyed bridge. If BOTH ends of the bridge were within the person, then a shield or a steading would have no effect, as the channeler would essentially be a "well", like Ny's belt.

[heckles]

We know that Setalle cannot sense the source, as when she puts on the A'dam bracelet while Joline is wearing it, she feels nothing, and Joline reacts with the muscle spasms, etc. (Somewhere in COT) When Siuan and Leane try the a'dam whilst still severed, there is no adverse effect upon Moghedien, who is collared, and they speak of being able to sense the source. (LOC, I think)

[Luckers]

You sure? Granted, I've only read through the series twice, but I'm almost POSITIVE that we either have a POV from someone who's been burned out or stilled, or a reference of them speaking about it.

 

I'm sure. Women who have been burned out cannot sense the Source, but women who have been stilled can.

 

While I agree with your analogy of the bridge, I disagree with how the bridge is structured. The individual only has ONE HALF of the necessary bridge. The other half is rooted in the Source. When the bridge is destroyed (however it happens) the individual is only left with HIS/HER END of the destroyed bridge. If BOTH ends of the bridge were within the person, then a shield or a steading would have no effect, as the channeler would essentially be a "well", like Ny's belt.

 

My analogy did not speak to parts of the bridge belonging to either side, but rather of the bridge as a whole. Stilling cuts it in half, burning out destroys it completely, yet the bases of the bridge of either side remain.

 

We know that Setalle cannot sense the source, as when she puts on the A'dam bracelet while Joline is wearing it, she feels nothing, and Joline reacts with the muscle spasms, etc. (Somewhere in COT) When Siuan and Leane try the a'dam whilst still severed, there is no adverse effect upon Moghedien, who is collared, and they speak of being able to sense the source. (LOC, I think)

 

Thats an easily made misperception. Firstly, we know nothing of what Satelle senses when she puts the a'dam on, and when it fails to work she has no reason to speak of any sensations, and a lot of reasons not to, so its a moot point.

 

As for the results--the reaction Joline experiences is the reaction of a woman attempting to move the bracelet without it being connected to a sul'dam, its even specified to have taken place on the second step which Egwene shows to be how far the damane can move the bracelet without experiencing that effect. Moghedian experiences no such effects because Elayne altered the a'dam so that it didn't requiren a woman to be wearing the bracelet in order that the damane move. In any case neither Siuan nor Leane attempted to move.

[Snowy Dawn]

I suspect that healing Setalle will be harder than healing Siuan or Leane or Logain. FWIW, I am assuming that there is something the brain of channelers that enables them to touch the source, and that in the case of stilling or gentling a nick or cut is put in that something that can be bridged as Nynaeve and Damer were able to do, but that in the case of someone burned out, there may be enough damage to that area of the brain to make it difficult or impossible to restore the ability to channel. It may be that in the case of Sashelle et al, enough was left for Damer to heal them, or that, in fact, what Rand did in breaking the shield actually had the same effect as stilling, just a cut that can be bridged. I remain hopeful that Nynaeve and Damer linked can heal Setalle, just to see what Tuon does when not Setalle but Martine Janata of the Brown shows up with Mat. (If Tuon agrees to meet Rand, presumably she will want Matrim to come to the meeting as well [she will ask for `Matrim' not `Mat', of course].)

[Luckers]

It's unlikely given the decription, he crushed they web in the place they held it creating enough stress and presure that the ability was seared out of them. Thats pretty much textbook burning out It occured to me at one stage that Damer discovered a different method that could be used on burning out, but then there is Cyndane, and Egwene's comments re:burning out to be concidered.