Quick Thought on Ta'veren/Hawkwing

[Davian93]

I recently had a thought that I would like opinions on (all are welcome) as I am working on a theory about ta'veren and the Shadow.

 

Here goes:

 

Was Hawkwing a ta'veren until he died or did he stop being one after a certain point (say after his conquests were complete)?

 

If he was, what corrective mechanism did he serve for the Wheel as a pawn to Ishamael who was influencing/compelling him in the guise of an advisor?

 

If he was a ta'veren till he died and he of course was being compelled by Ishy, then would this mean that Ta'veren can be Darkfriends?

 

Yes, I know its alot of questions but I would like your thoughts on it.  I'm basically trying to proof whether or not a Darkfriend can be a ta'veren and what purpose the Wheel would then have for such a creation as DF's serve the DO who is the antithesis of the order created by the Wheel.

[Kadere]

If you're trying to say Hawkwing was a darkfriend because he listened to Ishy in a guise as his advisor, he wasn't.

 

Darkfriends can't be Ta'veran because the specific purpose of a Ta'veran is to bring the weave back to where the Creator needs it against the influence of the Dark One. The Dark One's touch remove's the balance without the help of a Ta'veran, Ta'veran's restore it.

 

The purpose for Hawkwing to listen to Ishy, on a more historical scale, was to make the world as it is now. It caused Randland to shatter into nations, placed the Seanchan on the other end of the Ocean, and created serious dislike and hatred of Aes Sedai. Because of all this, a Ta'veran even stronger then Hawkwing was necassary now before TG: Rand al'Thor. If the world had continued as the almost utopia it was under Hawkwing, the Pattern wouldn't have had such a need for Rand to be as strongly Ta'veran as he is. Which would potentionally allow the Dark One to win in the end.

[Davian93]

If you're trying to say Hawkwing was a darkfriend because he listened to Ishy in a guise as his advisor, he wasn't

 

Actually, I'm on the same side of the fence as you.  I was brainstorming this because I kinda doubt that Hawkwing was a ta'veren after a certain point and that is why Ishy had no issues compelling him and why things went wrong for him in the last decades of his life.

 

Darkfriends can't be Ta'veran because the specific purpose of a Ta'veran is to bring the weave back to where the Creator needs it against the influence of the Dark One. The Dark One's touch remove's the balance without the help of a Ta'veran, Ta'veran's restore it.

 

I agree, but I want to definitively prove it and to do that I have to eliminate any possibilities of ta'veren as DF's.  Being under the control of a DF is a gray area though.

 

The purpose for Hawkwing to listen to Ishy, on a more historical scale, was to make the world as it is now. It caused Randland to shatter into nations, placed the Seanchan on the other end of the Ocean, and created serious dislike and hatred of Aes Sedai. Because of all this, a Ta'veran even stronger then Hawkwing was necassary now before TG: Rand al'Thor. If the world had continued as the almost utopia it was under Hawkwing, the Pattern wouldn't have had such a need for Rand to be as strongly Ta'veran as he is.

 

Interesting last thought on why Kadere.

[Majsju]

Darkfriends can be ta'veren, it's just not very likely.

 

And ta'veren are not created specifically to counter the DO. They are there to correct eventual drifts in the pattern, and such drifts can occur without the DO having anything to do with it.

[Kadere]

For kcf, again, we have never met anyone who has the Talent of emulating the effects of a ta’veren over a small area.  I give my input on the design of the chapter icons whenever a new one seems needed, but Harriet actually decides where to place them, and I am happy to leave the job to her.  Yes, Ingtar was seen at the Darkfriend Social. The Wheel creates ta’veren at need, making someone who is already alive one.  You aren’t born ta’veren.  Can you imagine being around a ta’veren who is teething? It would be possible for a Darkfriend or Forsaken to be made ta’veren, but it seems unlikely.  Ta’veren are part of the Wheel’s self-correcting mechanism.  When the Pattern seems to be drifting too quickly, and especially if it is in the wrong direction, one or more ta’veren are created.  I can’t really see how making a Darkfriend or Forsaken ta’veren would help with correcting the drift of the Pattern.  Ta’veren can oppose one another, when their conflict is what the Wheel “sees” as the necessary corrective.  And, no, ta’veren is not Old Tongue for Deus ex machina.  It came out of musings on luck, charismatic leaders, and the theory of the indispensable man.  Katerine escaped with the help of Darkfriends.  Galina, who is much more closely watched by Wise Ones than Katerine was, would have little opportunity to use their help for an escape even if she wanted to, and she doesn’t, not until she can get her hands on that rod.  She’ll put up with anything to get that.  Anyone who can channel, however weakly, can see the glow of saidar and feel someone channel.  For sul’dam who have been sul’dam for a time, some begin to be able to see what might be called a ghostly image of the flows.  Others convince themselves that this is, of course, only imagination and manage to give themselves a block.  Wow, you have a lot of questions.  One more, and then I’m off to the next person.  Someone who sees ta’veren sees them as glowing.  The more strongly ta’veren, the brighter the glow.  This is a Talent, and is something that only someone who can channel can do.  While she was stilled, Siuan could not see ta’veren, nor could she have if she had been burned out.

[Davian93]

Thanks for the quote, Kadere.

[Majsju]

In a sense, Ishys whispers backfired. He contributed to Hawkwing starting a war with Tar Valon, which in a way caused the creation of Andor as we know it. Ie making it possible for Gitara to have the influence necessary to send Tigraine to the Aiel waste.

 

He sent hawkwings sons to Seanchan, messed up the prophecies and most likely had a hand in making them so devoted to "taking back" the lands Hawkwing ruled. Because of that, Rand will soon have quite a powerful addition to his armies.

 

Almost makes you wonder if not part of hawkwings immense strength as ta'veren was in order to counter Ishys influence.

 

Also, I do disagree that Rands strength as ta'veren is just to be able to clean up the mess after hawkwing. I'm quite certain he will need that strength when facing the DO.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

For kcf, again, we have never met anyone who has the Talent of emulating the effects of a ta’veren over a small area

UNQUOTE

 

We do know that Ishamael/Moridin can do it as he has said, although that doesnt mean he has the Talent necessarily. Also, Aginor/Osan'gar and Balthamel/Aran'gar can do it also; that was how they found Rand at the end of EotW.

 

P.S. Is Aginor Osan'gar, and Balthamel Aran'gar? Did I get those the right way round?

[Kadere]

P.S. Is Aginor Osan'gar, and Balthamel Aran'gar? Did I get those the right way round?

 

Yes you did.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Cheers. Guys my previous post on this thread is flawed, please ignore it. I know Aginor and Balthamel did not duplicate the effects of taveren, they found Rand BECAUSE he was Taveren. Crossed wires, hole digging, whatever you want to call it. Sorry

[Luckers]

Actually Aginor and Balthamel found Rand through Mat and the evil of the Shadar Logoth dagger. Only Ishamael and Lanfear employed the method of finding ta'veren through the distortions they cause in the pattern, and in KoD Graendal suggests that this is a very difficult thing to do at the best of times.

 

Darkfriends can't be Ta'veran because the specific purpose of a Ta'veran is to bring the weave back to where the Creator needs it against the influence of the Dark One. The Dark One's touch remove's the balance without the help of a Ta'veran, Ta'veran's restore it.

 

Whilst Maj has already addressed this, I would like to just reiterate that the Creator has nothing to do with the creation of ta'veren nor the direction of influence they are supposed to cause. All of that is an machenism purely of the Wheel.

 

If he was, what corrective mechanism did he serve for the Wheel as a pawn to Ishamael who was influencing/compelling him in the guise of an advisor?

 

Your giving the Wheel too much credit. It's not watching Hawkwing and twinging the effects of his actions to specifically benefit itself, its just... loosening... the pattern around him so that his actions as a whole can be more effective, and as such he can create enough social turbulence to allow for the change nessasary to correct the drift in the pattern.

 

As such it is possible for him to be influenced against the Patterns interest--though Maj made some good points about what Hawkwing's influence DID cause that was good, but yeah...