Why does the shadow want Rand to be alive for the last battle

[marcbreault]

Did the Dark One change his mind about this?  In New Spring the Dark One's intent was to kill the Dragon Reborn even if he had to kill everyone that seemed lucky etc.  ishamael certainly wanted him dead although he did talk about turning too.  At the moment the Dark One wants chaos to rule which makes sense to me, but why does he seemingly want Rand to be alive at the last battle?  With chaos ruling Rand can't win, so that's fine, I understand that, but why have him there in the first place?  If he were dead then the Dark One could break free and no one would oppose him.  That seems to have been the tactic at the start.  has the Dark One changed his mind?  Or is the Dark One's only way of breaking free into this world is to take Rand over somehow or turn him?

[algspkr]

The attempts to kill Rand in New Spring were initiated by the black ajah.  Alvairin hints that Ishameal was displeased by this.

 

In TEotW, TGH, and until the end of TDR Ishameal spent most of his time trying to turn Rand.  The resaon for this seems to be that the Shadow's victory will be more certain/complete with Rand on their side than on the Light's.

 

Moridin has given relatively few orders concerning Rand.  First it was kill him if nesseccary to prevent the cleansing.  That sort of fell through, and so he has issued a new no kill order, the general concensous behind the reason for this is that he fears Rand's death with their link.

 

 

[marcbreault]

Good point about the link.  I hadn't thought of that.  Still, I cannot help think there is some reason for this attitude other than the fear of his death due to the link.  Is there a chance the shadow loses if Rand is not there?  We have been led to believe Rand must be there or all is lost.  If this is so, then if Rand is not there, wouldn't the shadow win for sure?  Also, is Taim going against orders trying to kill Rand?  Or did he make the attempt through his henchman knowing it would probably fail but the attempt would increase chaos?

[trakand_01]

I have always assumed it's down to prophecy - the prophecies say that Rand must fight the DO at TG, and therefore they've tried to keep him alive (Elza uses 'the DR must be alive to meet TG' as her reason for swearing fealty to him).

 

You have to admit, it would be a pretty rubbish ending if the DO broke free, and all there was waiting for him was Shaidar Haran and Graendal with a bottle of white and a few Custard Creams.

 

"Sorry, Great Lord, all the big palaces are full, Elayne Trakand's just had twins so we didnt really think we could put her out of Caemlyn, but we've got you into the Travel Inn in Rhuidean until Tuesday, then we'll have to find you somewhere else. Custard Cream?"

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

"Sorry, Great Lord, all the big palaces are full, Elayne Trakand's just had twins so we didnt really think we could put her out of Caemlyn, but we've got you into the Travel Inn in Rhuidean until Tuesday, then we'll have to find you somewhere else. Custard Cream?"

 

OH FOR THE LOVE OF JORDAN! I TOLD YOU TO USE EXPEDIA! CAN'T YOU PEOPLE DO ANYTHING RIGHT?! (Changes to a squeaky high-pitched voice) OH I'M SORRY GREAT LORD, WE TRIED GREAT LORD, PLEASE CAN I BE NAE'BLIS GREAT LORD? (Goes back to normal) AND ... HE'S A SHEEPHERDER! A SHEEPHERDER! FOR JORDAN'S SAKE YOU PEOPLE ARE USELESS!!!

 

I'd always assumed that it's because the DO still wants to turn him to the dark side if possible. That's the only way they can acheive a 'total victory' I believe. Might be totally off track though.

 

As far as I'm aware, Rand was only to be killed if it was absolutely necessary.

[Luckers]

Initially the Dark One would have a vested interest in turning Rand because the second Rand turned his soul would come under the Dakr Ones control and thus could be destroyed, thus ending the cycle in which he resists the Shadow on and on. It's a bit of a big picture thing. It makes sense for Ishamael to make an effort to turn Rand--to a certain point.

 

They reached that point around Winter's Heart, hence the 'kill as you must' order. That changed, as has already been stated, because of the link between them and the personal fears Moridin has about what issues Rand's death may cause him personally.

 

About the Black Ajah's search and destroy mission mentioned in New Spring, indeed it was done without the Shadow's endorsement--indeed, when Ishamael found out he killed the head of the Black Ajah, Jarna Malari, for ordering it and the torture and murders of Tamra and her Searchers.

 

I have always assumed it's down to prophecy - the prophecies say that Rand must fight the DO at TG, and therefore they've tried to keep him alive (Elza uses 'the DR must be alive to meet TG' as her reason for swearing fealty to him).

 

This is misleading. Elza beliefs stem from the fact that Verin compelled her to do everything in her power to keep the Dragon alive. She rationalized her position by coming up with the idea that Rand had to be kept alive in order that he die at the Dark Ones hand in the Last Battle, but its not actually something the Shadow believes.

[marcbreault]

Do you think Ishamael lied when he said that in the past the Dragon (Ran'ds soul in the past) had knelt to the Dark One?  I think he probably did lie because had he turned to the Dark, then the Dark One would have pretty much won.  Then again, the Dark One's purpose is to break the wheel and remake the world in his own image.  I suppose if the Dark One were sealed up the past Rand could have turned to the Dark One anyway without the Dark One breaking free, but I think it is easier to believe Ishamael was just lying.  He does seem to be a philosopher of sorts though and his claim that the conflict between the Dark One and the Dragon has raged many times before seems to be true. 

 

I do hope for the sake of a good read that we have a genuine last battle in AMoL.  I'd hate to see the David Eddings trick pulled where Garion decideds to go after Torak one on one rather than lose a lot of lives in battles.  Noble, but the climax of the Belgariad wasn't as good because of it.  It would be great if a really big epic battle took place in AMoL with hundreds of thousands on either side.  In the midst of this battle, though, I think the previous books indicate Rand will have his one on one with the Dark One.

[aussie_ashaman123]

Do you think Ishamael lied when he said that in the past the Dragon (Ran'ds soul in the past) had knelt to the Dark One?  I think he probably did lie because had he turned to the Dark, then the Dark One would have pretty much won.  Then again, the Dark One's purpose is to break the wheel and remake the world in his own image.  I suppose if the Dark One were sealed up the past Rand could have turned to the Dark One anyway without the Dark One breaking free, but I think it is easier to believe Ishamael was just lying.  He does seem to be a philosopher of sorts though and his claim that the conflict between the Dark One and the Dragon has raged many times before seems to be true. 

 

I do hope for the sake of a good read that we have a genuine last battle in AMoL.  I'd hate to see the David Eddings trick pulled where Garion decideds to go after Torak one on one rather than lose a lot of lives in battles.  Noble, but the climax of the Belgariad wasn't as good because of it.  It would be great if a really big epic battle took place in AMoL with hundreds of thousands on either side.  In the midst of this battle, though, I think the previous books indicate Rand will have his one on one with the Dark One.

 

It is probably true, but this is the time that counts, the one where the dark one gets loose if the Light loses. As far as we know, the dark ones prison has never been 'physically' open to the wheel before, even in other AoL's.

 

As for the Last battle, i sorta doubt Rand can get a few thousand troops into th Pit of Doom for a big fight sequence. As for Eddings ending? The battle at Thull Mardu shouldve been enough, though a Vo Mimbre battle would be thrilling as well.

 

 

[42Bonzo88]

    Bear with me on this because as I write this it sounds stupid to me.

 

    The Creator and the Dark One are playing a very complicated version of chess/stones/some other game and rules must be followed. Certain people cannot be outright "killed", the people can only win (Forsaken and followers of Rand) by thier choices under the influence of others. If Rand is influenced to go a certain way by Ishy then the Dark One "wins" that "battle" if Rand chooses not to be influenced then the creator.

 

Just a thought.

 

[Luckers]

Do you think Ishamael lied when he said that in the past the Dragon (Ran'ds soul in the past) had knelt to the Dark One?  I think he probably did lie because had he turned to the Dark, then the Dark One would have pretty much won.

 

RJ's reaction when this was asked of him, was to laugh and say "You believed Ishamael? He's a lying liar that lies."

 

That says it more eloquently than i could manage.

[aussie_ashaman123]

Do you think Ishamael lied when he said that in the past the Dragon (Ran'ds soul in the past) had knelt to the Dark One?  I think he probably did lie because had he turned to the Dark, then the Dark One would have pretty much won.

 

RJ's reaction when this was asked of him, was to laugh and say "You believed Ishamael? He's a lying liar that lies."

 

That says it more eloquently than i could manage.

 

Even lying liars that lie tell the truth sometimes. Even Hawkwing told Rand that theyd been enemies just as many times as a theyd been allies.

 

Its sorta like one of the school yard team-choosing ewercises.

Creator- I choose the Dragon

DO- Hmmm, I want Ishy...

[Luckers]

Except RJ's comment was specifically about that statement by Ishamael.