Who do you think are the strongest channelers?

[Luckers]

Perhaps I am missing something? Ishamael &Co are the strongest Forsaken, I think, but were the Forsaken (all of them, and specifically Ishamael's group) among the strongest Aes Sedai in the AoL? (I can’t recall). In that case you could rightfully call them representatives of the top channelers in the AoL.

 

I fear you misunderstood me. I wasn't suggesting all Forsaken were incredibly strong--they almost certainly weren't. The thirteen we met all stand at the top of the range of strength, but that range was just as diverse then as it is now. The Forsaken (meaning any Aes Sedai who turned to the Shadow) would likely range from the very very weak to the very very strong, just as any other random selection of individuals would.

 

Additionally, we don't actually know that the thirteen that were trapped were the strongest of the Forsaken. With roughly 3% of the population able to channel in an industrial world there must have been tens of thousands of Aes Sedai that turned to the Shadow. There almost certainly must have been other Forsaken who were stronger than various members of the Thirteen (remember, Forsaken got raised to Chosen as much for their abilities as anything else)--and certainly there were Aes Sedai who remained loyal to the Light who were similarily strong.

 

But they were up there. Ishamael was the strongest a man could be, much like Lews Therin, and Aginor and Demandred were not far behind. Lanfear similarily was as strong as a woman could be.

 

This is open to interpretation, and here is mine. The first quote certainly makes it clear that there is a gap between Sharina and Nynaeve, possibly a large gap, but not as large or as considerable (IMHO) as the second quote and Nynaeve’s thoughts imply about the gap between Alivia and Nynaeve.

 

The main issue with this is that these quotes were uttered by different people. Nynaeve and Elayne, who size up Alivia, have never met Sharina, nor has Egwene encountered Alivia.

 

Furthermore keep in mind that people naturally phrase their thoughts with reference to more than just the objective facts. For instance, Sharina, as a novices, represents a social inferior to Egwene, whilst Alivia, as a damane represents a mixture of fear and distaste to Elayne and Nynaeve. Additionally, Egwene is commenting on her perceptions of Sharina's potential, which would immediately rephrase the comment in a less dramatic manner because her current strength would undercut the perception.

 

Ultimately it makes it all too fluid for any sort of guesswork about wording because such things are already subjective.

 

I’ve also always wondered why Egwene never compared Lanfear to Sharina. Granted there was excruciating pain involved with Lanfear, but I don’t think that would have kept her from noticing how strong she was. 

 

Concidering Egwene conciders the suggestion of Sharina being as strong as a woman can be without dismissing the thought, this suggests that Sharina is at least as strong as Lanfear.

 

Could you provide a quote where Moghedien thinks that she is as strong as Rahvin? Thanks.

And while on that, isn’t it possible that it was her ego talking?

 

Certainly. It's even likely. I was just pointing out that there is no evidence even suggesting that Moghedian is the weakest of the Forsaken, yet it is assumed that she is.

 

As for the quote, she tells Nynaeve that she would 'love to see Rhavin's eyes the day he met [her] unblocked', and since she and Nynaeve are the same strength, its clear that she thinks Rhavin is below her. Its in tFoH.

 

"Great Lord, you know how many of your enemies I brought down in the War of Power. From the shadows, unseen, or if seen, ignored because I could not possibly be a threat."

ACoS (Mindtrap). From Moghedien.

 

"It is known that a number of the other Forsaken did, in fact, look down on her, yet those who discounted her too far often lived to regret it."

 

That is from the Guide. Throughout the books the Forsaken have that attitude towards Moghy. Now, why do you think they would go and do that? Why would she not be considered a threat? Why is she so ignored?

 

Because she's timid, and hides rather than displaying strength. Yet despite that she never shows any degree of subserviance to the Forsaken--and need i point out your own quotes state that they live to regret it.

 

As I have mentioned before, strength in the Power seems to matter a lot to the FS. You don’t see Lanfear, or Graendal, or Sammael looked down on they way Moghedien is, or Asmodean, for that matter. Why is that? Bolstering their own egos and superiority?

 

We've only seen Lanfear around Asmodean, and she clearly reguards him as controllable. Moghedian is dismissed to readily because her nature is to lie low.

 

And to say strength in the power is important is somewhat deceptive. Prestige, order, strength... power in general is important. Strength in the power is an element that clearly influences their egos, but their egos exist in extention of that, hence RJ stating that they overstate their own strengths and understate others as best they can.

 

No offense, but the term natural timidity is rather laughable. It reeks more of fear than anything else from the Spider to me.

I don’t know how long the War of Power lasted, but I think it was long enough for the Forsaken to get thoroughly acquainted with one another. I would think that they had enough time to size each other up; after all the attitudes we see them with are not developed within the books, they have carried them over from the AoL.

 

You think it laughable? So apparently did others. They lived to regret it, or so your quote states.

 

She's a coward, it's true, but that doesn't make her weak. Nor ineffective.

 

There has to be a reason why the Forsaken have that attitude with Moghedien. Lesser strength in the Power is a leading candidate for me. Why is it that Moghedien would rather work from the shadows? Why is she reluctant to go head to head with her competition? Could it be possibly because she can’t match what they would throw at her?

 

Because she IS a coward. Such a mentality would not have merely surfaced at the advent of the war. Recall that Moghedian was nearly three hundred years old by then, her methods and personality were already set--and in the Age of Legends strength in the Power mattered not one whit. Indeed, when amongst the general populace Moghedian would be one of the strongest channelers around, even if she IS the weakest Forsaken. There is no reason whatsoever for her strength to have set her in a pattern of hiding.

 

And its not nessasarily a bad thing either. Studies have shown that many such people develop methods of assertiveness in avoidance to confrontation that allow for massive personal advancement. They appear shy and retiring and quite frequently would suffer an anxiety attack in the face of actual confrontation, yet the very instant they were away plot methods of personal advancement--quite successfully.

 

How many times have we seen Moghedien interacting with the other Forsaken? I can’t truthfully recall, but I would guess not enough to know whether she’s subservient to others or not.

 

We've seen her a couple of times--with Graendal, and during the Coffee Hours. And I can tell you, there is no subservience in her for them.

 

I mean I do remember her standing up to Moridin—that is, before she found out who he was. Then, upon realizing his standing she flopped. Wasn’t she kinda of begging right after Graendal shielded her? Before that she knew she had Moridin’s indirect support, and that gave her courage.

 

She flopped when she realised he held her cour'souvra, and she was begging Graendal because of the compulsion Graendal used to make her do so.

 

The thing is, she sees herself as brave and cunning, but most, if not all Forsaken consider her a coward. They can’t all of them be wrong.

 

She is a coward. I don't see the relevance?

 

This goes back to the fact I meant Aes Sedai only, not the whole world. If it’s the latter, then I would agree with you on that.

 

I'm afraid I'm confused at your point of contention then. We are discussing the truth of the image of the Forsaken as being stronger than modern channelers. What does their comparison to the Aes Sedai--the worlds lamest grouping of channelers aside from the Kin--have to do with anything?

 

Like I said before, it’s the way the other Forsaken think of her, as if she is no threat to them; and from what I’ve seen strength in the Power (though not the only thing) will determine whether you could be a threat or not. That combined with Moghedien’s penchant for working from the shadows. To me that just can’t be her being ‘timid’. Not with the Forsaken’s egos.

 

Actually strength in the power almost seems to be ignored--or, to state it more accurately, subjectively read in such a way that it becomes pointless. The Forsaken generally assume themselves to be stronger than their buddies--RJ says its a function of ego--and as such Moghedian's strength is in no way suggested from her peers reguard of her.

 

It’s the Aes Sedai’s word against Lanfear’s, is what I meant.

Lanfear was a researcher, and had lived for quite a long time, which, I would say, gave her plenty of time to study some about the Power and meet a lot of channelers (the Power was her area of research, right? Just confirming). You could even say that she was qualified to make observations about people’s strength. When she faced Alivia, she was shocked by her strength. It is this shock (and strength) that generated her ‘no woman could be stronger’ thought. By this I mean, it seemed more than just Lanfear not accepting that anyone could be stronger than her. She was too certain And it turned out she was right, Alivia did have an angreal. She doesn’t say that no woman could be as strong as her. That is a possibility.

 

Then there are Aes Sedai. They are theorizing that Sharina could be as strong as a woman can be. Like I said, it is just an idea, but there has to be something backing that idea, thus why I said they must be keeping tabs somewhere. There is a chance they are right in their speculations.

 

My point is this. If Lanfear made that comment (in her head) as a researcher, rather than a Forsaken, then there is a possibility she is right. Just as the Aes Sedai could be right in their theorizing about Sharina. It’s just a matter of who you believe.

 

I'm sorry, but again, why is that an issue of contention. I knew you were speaking of the Aes Sedai's word against Lanfears last time--hence the comments that came after.

 

For clarity there is no need to believe either over the other...There is no crossing there. Lanfear and the Aes Sedai could both be right... or both be wrong, or one could be wrong and the other right... there is no crossover. Indeed, Lanfear is almost certainly correct, and the Aes Sedai do have reason to make claims about Sharina, and quite likely are also correct.

 

So again, I'm not sure what your getting at.

[elmis]

What do you mean? The exact comment was 'Then the woman struck back at her and she suffered her second shock. She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Eelfinn and the Aelfinn held her! That was impossible' date=' no woman [i']could[/i] be stronger. She must have an angreal, too.'

 

I don't see how its phrased to infer only a slight difference. Cyndane's language is sharp, direct and specific. Alivia was stronger than Lanfear had been, and it was a great shock.

 

This is what i mean by the 'wow' factor. We expect Third Agers to be weaker so thats how we read the text.

 

I don't have the book right now, so I assume your quote is a direct one from the book. Give that, I might be wrong. :)

 

I was pointing to the lack of even stronger wording, she is sharp and direct as you say, but it does leave some interpretation up to the reader as to how much stronger Alivia is. At any rate, it's fair to assume that Alivia is using an angreal at the the time, so I'm still thinking basic Alivia < basic Lanfear. What do you think about that?

[Luckers]

The issue is that even if Alivia is weaker than Lanfear originally, she was channeling through a very strong angreal, which means that when Cyndane encountered her she was at least two times her normal strength--and probably more, given Elayne's comments. Such a small difference in strength as between Lanfear's strength and the absolute minimum possible strength that Alivia could hold would become blurry for Cyndane to realise... and i don't think it even influenced her thinking.

 

Keep in mind that Cyndane has a prejudice about modern channelers. She dimisses them. Alivia being stronger that Lanfear was an afront to her pride, and that comes through, but she still dismisses the woman.

 

At any rate, it's fair to assume that Alivia is using an angreal at the the time, so I'm still thinking basic Alivia < basic Lanfear. What do you think about that?

 

I think it unlikely. Strength did not weigh much into the reasons that Cyndane held her own... Cyndane managed that because of superior skill. And the fact remains that with an angreal like Alivia's, the strength difference becomes a non-issue anyway.

[nornagest]

this question is a little academic as when Nyn and Elayne are 'captured' by the kin they are sheilded from the source by one of the kin(i cant remember which) but when nyn tries to break the sheild she is told that "i could hold one of the forsaken"

this says that pure strength in the power is one thing but practice in a particular skill negates raw power... such is also intimated when travelling on a sea folk vessel for the first time and elayne tells the windfinder that she could not handle the size of flows that the windfinder can even though she is Aes Sedai.

[balefireruinssteaks]

Does an angreal have anything to do with what a woman feels when sensing another woman's potential strength?

 

Earlier Elza is surveying the scene and says something to the effect "Cadsuane must have an angreal from the amount of Power she was holding...more than Elza and Merise combined" so it seems to me that if you are holding as much of the Power as you can with an angreal's aid, another channeler would not be able to seperate your own potential from what you are doing with an angreal.  That is, if they didn't know you had an angreal they might mistakenly think you were actually  THAT strong.

 

Cyndane also gets shocked when she senses the strength with which Alivia attacks, "more of the Power than she herself before the Aelfinn and Eelfin held her" and comes to the conclusion that she must have an angreal.  She could not sense Alivia's natural potential, she was just going off of what she felt being hurled at her.

 

I think we have to determine as well if Nyneave has reached her full potential yet at this point.  Has Elayne?  (when Elayne comes to Salidar, she is helping Min do Siuan's laundry and seems surprised that everyone is gawking over her strength, thinking "she was used to her own strength now...it didn't occur to her that she did without thinking what most Aes Sedai could not even do") Egwene was forced, but does that mean she's just ahead of Elayne or has she hit her full potential.

 

I would have to imagine that Lanfear, Graendal, Alivia and the other Forsaken have all topped out in their potential, having already been at their peaks in the Age of Legends, and Alivia has been channeling for four hundred years.  Any Sister would be at their potential.  Sharina is still a novice, untrained.  She most likely can't handle more of the Power than any other novice or Accepted since there has not been any mention of her being raised due to an increase in strength as with Elayne and Egwene in The Dragon Reborn.

 

So we're basically going off strength levels of people who are still growing.  Is Flinn at his top yet?  And he is considered strong.  See?