(Moved from Tinker DG) Abortion

[lord of the dawn]

What is your view on it? Abortion is when a woman becomes pregnant, and does not want the child to be born, so they go to a special doctor so it can be killed.

 

My view on this subject is that I oppose it, I think it is wrong to let an unborn child die, but I do think that somtimes things like that might be neccesary. Somtimes. What do you think about this?

[Desiree]

ugh... let me guess, you're for banning it?! Yes, I can see where you think in some cases it is okay, but still... you're against abortion and for banning it?! >.<

 

I am for abortion and against banning it. There are too many cases that I can see that it would cause major problems if an abortion was needed if it were banned. Yes, it is ending a life, but it is a life that no one knew. And besides, before the 40-day mark, it isn't even really considered a life-form of any kind. It's just a mass of cells growing. I've dealt with too many friends with miscarriages due to health problems that may require an abortion if their condition affected their health and their baby's health for me to be against abortion.

 

I can see it being banned, but with exceptions. First off, is the mother-to-be truly fit to have kids? Yes, they can be given up for adoption, but what are the chances of that baby actually being adopted with so many centers that are filled with kids already? If the mother-to-be knows they are unfit to handle a baby and doesn't want to have to worry over if it will be taken care of or not, then if she wants an abortion she should be able to get one!

 

What about money? Babies costs at least a thousand dollars a month. What about a financially-struggling couple that tries to have safe sex, but winds up pregnant anyway?

 

What about rape victims?! I know from first-hand experience *shudders* that if I had my rapists baby growing inside of me, I would want to get rid of it as soon as possible. I would not carry that monster's spawn in me for nine months. I wouldn't want to even carry it for nine hours! Ofc, if they ban abortion with this exception, that would mean the person would have to admit and prove they were raped. Lots of teenage girls are too scared to do that and do not need the attention it brings on them. It only doubles the trajedy. If they want to be able to get an abortion without any questions asked, they should be able to do so without telling how they got pregnant and no authorites to double the stress!

 

Couples who have severe health problems that carry on down to a child should be able to get an abortion if it effects their health or that of the baby's.

 

there are also a few other reasons why that I thought of yesterday when I saw this, but I can't remember them now...

[lord of the dawn]

The extreme cases, like rape, and health problems is why it think it must be done. but otherwis, like if a woman was irresponsible and got pregnant, she should keep the child, be burdened by her decisions, and learn from her actions. I can understand your thoughts on this. I think there are programs and stuff for those who need financial aid.

[Simon the half-demon]

first off, i would like to say that its none of societies business what individual people do. therefore it should be up to the couple. human life only has a value if you take some sort of religion into account, and laws are supposed to be seperate from religion.

 

also, im against banning anything full stop. i hate most restrictions, even if they dont apply to me.

 

and lotd, you are aware that most people arent 'responsable' in the real world. therefore its kinda pointless to say life with the burden, because there would be too many cases for any benifit to come from it in a judicical sense.

 

and if you are taking the sentimental standpoint, then if either a couple of a non-coupled mother doesent want a kid, or kids, then is it really a good idea to make them look after a kid? do you think theyl be 'responsable' parents? think theyl look after the kid properly?

 

plus it hardly is a burden if they just neglect said kid. so that point of yours doesent make sense.

 

and theres an error in your original post. you said it kills the baby. now i personally dont care whether its alive or dead. the point is it wont be alive afterwards regardless.

but, lotd, without using religion you cant say its alive before the 40 day mark like kristen said, so you would be fine to put there are two schools of thought, but to say that its definatly alive cant be proven, therefore it has no place in a debate exept to try to convinve the casual reader to go to one side when they dont know enough themselves.

 

were the babies actually sentient, then fine you could put that, *i* still wouldent care but some people would, and its not fair to influence them with a statement that you cant back up.

 

some people dont like financial aid. they refuse it through pride. theyl suffer, so will the kid. sometimes they cant get financial aid, for whatever reason.

 

people are people, there lives are there own. theres no logical reason for them to be tied to a kid just because its theirs, so they should be able to give it up when they please.

 

if you were somehow to make yourself the size of a baby and implant yourself in a womans womb, and they couldent remove you without killing you, would it be fair for the woman to have to carry you around? no.

 

and if you agree that its 'sometimes' neccecery, you can accept that it can happy with no huge consequences or youd be agaisnt it totally, therefore it doesent make much difference what the circumstances are.

 

now, ive said my piece, and unless someone has a specific refute to one of my points, or i see an interesting point i probaby wont post in this thread again *nods*

 

i would also like to point out that if debates spring up again, and i dont see them, unless its something ill obviously oppose, and remember i place no value on the life of someone who i dont consider a freind or better, im pro-choice *nods again*

[Desiree]

Besides, how can you love something you don't even know how it will grow up and be like? Especially if you don't want it there int he first place. Also, think of the teenagers who get pregnant by accident of a broken condom or the pull-out method doesn't work... what if they need to hide it? I know plenty of teenage girls who have gotten kicked out of their house for things like that unless they were to get rid of them. Sometimes it's not the teenager's choice. Sometimes parents put their foot down and tell them move it or lose it!

[lord of the dawn]

you both have good veiws in this matter, i honestly believe that what simon says about religion is true, But i stick to what I said, although i can somewhat understand what you say des, im getting threatened to bring my grades up. or else im out. O_o

 

I don't like tht much to be honest with you

[Simon the half-demon]

woah woah.. your basing your actual belief because if you dont believe it youl get penalised?

 

dude, if that is the case and you cant do anything about it, first off is it should not affect what you actually believe, though i guess i can understand if you argue something other than personal view in order to gain a benifit.

 

oh, and if what i say about religion is true, you pretty much have to let it be legal, since, lets face it, religion is the only way to justify it.

[lord of the dawn]

My religion IS what i believe, thats basically what i base my thinking, and my ideals on

[Desiree]

see? the current discussion between keeping or doing away with abortion is because of RELIGION! There are people that would greatly approve of abortion because there's nothing aginast it in their religion, and hten there's others who think it is morally wrong because their religion says so. Politicians take this to the extreme and find ways to try to make laws out of it.

 

The way I see it, by banning abortion, people are once again forcing their religion on others because these people are catholic or what ever they are and it's what they grew up knowing as "wrong". But what truly -is- wrong? There's no line between right and wrong... everyone has their own opinions aobut this matter. It's called free will. people believe differently since they are given the right of religion, freedom, press, and individuality. There will always be people for it and people aginst it. what politicians should learn to do is to KEEP the separation of church and state. Lately, the government has been slacking on that constitutional regulation.

 

I say leave it be. If people are agianst it, that doesn't mean it has to be done away with. They can just go cry, listen to Hawthorne Heights, and cut their wrists for an hour and get over it and ignore it. That owuld be taking away the rights of the minority - or maybe even the majority! For most, it does more good than harm. So why do away with it?

[Simon the half-demon]

My religion IS what i believe, thats basically what i base my thinking, and my ideals on

 

BWAHAHAHA

 

thanks, you just gave me all i need to win this ^^

 

so, you believe abortion is wrong.

 

you only believe this because of your religion.

 

as previously stated and AGREED TO by yourself, religion should have nothing to do with law.

 

therefore, no law should be made.

 

if inside the religion you want to declare it a bad thing fine, or even make it a sin, fine to. but passing a legal ban, is as youve already said and comfirmed, something that shouldent be allowed.

 

i believe that actually wins this ^^

[Desiree]

well, it really does, but I was hoping to somehow drag this out longer since it's our first discussion in a long time. LotD, will you do the honors of asking us questions based on this discussion? or do you have more to add?

[Simon the half-demon]

>.< sorry.. next time ill draw it on longer..

[lord of the dawn]

no, not really lol, except that i really have to learn to stop confusing politics and religion >.<

[Desiree]

LOL

 

well, want to go on a religious rant with me in another discussion about the Golden Compass? you both get 1 point for participating >.>

 

*is just rying to keep up the Tinker's reputation for debtes*

[lord of the dawn]

i havent seen it yet though...srry....

[Simon the half-demon]

eh.. its basically going to be me saying 'its just fiction' repeatedly until everyone gets it :P

[Desiree]

I haven't either... it's just the whole atheist view on the movie. I'm going to go see it soon and I'mg onna check at hte library to seeif I can't check out the bookto be better equipped for it

[lord of the dawn]

!!!!

 

i got the His Dark Materials trilogy for Christmas ^^

 

(it includes The Golden Compass and 2 others lol)

[Desiree]

haha, no one really likes that. :P trust me, I have an incomplete grade in Ag. Leadership and like a D in German, now. But hopefully the last project brought it up ^^

 

but we're not asking you to change your views on the matter. we were just pointing out why we are against banning abortion and defending our beliefs. and it's not kewl if it's banned and someone may NEED to get it if there's something wrong with the pregnancy... trust me, that is a big worry for me. you know the placement of all the organs you learn in biology class? mine don't look like that. i was born with I think it's called gastrocesis where all my insides were on the out and they had to place them back in. it's why I have a scarred-up belly button and a scar on my neck. I'm scared I may have to get one one day and if it's banned I'm probably doomed... :(

[lord of the dawn]

again, thats why i said there were some exceptions...

[Desiree]

yeah... I just felt like going on a rant T.T

[lord of the dawn]

*shrugs*

 

 

okay then

[eclipse0]

Yes, it is ending a life, but it is a life that no one knew.

 

To me, that does make a life less precious

 

And besides, before the 40-day mark, it isn't even really considered a life-form of any kind.

 

That is the main topic of debate when this issue is brought up.  When is a life considered a life? Some say the moment of birth, some say conception and others at many points in between.

 

I've dealt with too many friends with miscarriages due to health problems that may require an abortion if their condition affected their health and their baby's health for me to be against abortion.

 

I would be ok with a ban that allowing an abortion but requiring a prescription indicating the the mother's health, mental (in the case of rape) or physical is at stake. In that case I would consider the termination as self defense.

 

To me, financial reasons are not valid to terminate a pregnancy. You can give the child up for adoption at no cost to you.  Many great people have come out of the foster system. Dave Thomas, founder of Wendy's to name one off the top of my head. What right does anyone have to determine that someone elses quality of life wouldn't be worth living? Shouldn't that decision be up to the person themselves?

 

I already know Simon would disagree with this line of thinking, but what about you Des?

[Desiree]

you're right... but I was thinking for those people who wouldn't want to have to pay the hospital bills for going back to have check ups and for delivery. I'm not much sure what else I can say on this part, honestly

[Simon the half-demon]

well, you have to remember that theres a lot of pain involved in childbirth.

 

i dont know if there is, or how much pain is involved in abortion, but its most likely less than in full childbirth.

 

not to mention it means things like you cant drink alchohol or smoke, and after a short while it becomes a physical emcumberance.

 

say 3 months without that being an affect, that means 6 months of a rather debilitation condition.

 

rather unfair, no?