Multiverse Metaphysics in The Wheel of Time

[WTES]

Introduction

 

The metaphysical nature of Robert Jordan’s The Wheel of Time (WOT) is quite complex and has a number of apparently paradoxical properties. In this essay, I present a self-consistent theory of WOT metaphysics that not only resolves these paradoxes but also sheds new light on other aspects of WOT lore. I argue that the destruction of the Pattern is an inevitable consequence of the Creator’s grand design, which encompasses an infinite series of Patterns, each with its own copy of the Dark One (DO). Time in WOT is linear for a single universe (WOT-U), but cyclic at the level of the multiverse (WOT-M) that contains all turnings of the Wheel.

 

References

 

My theory relies solely on the text of the Wheel of Time books (WOT-B). However, to be viable it also has to agree with paratext (e.g. interviews) originating from the real-life Creator, Robert Jordan (WOT-C). The latter category of information includes quotes from Robert Jordan himself as well as Brandon Sanderson, Harriet McDougal, Maria Simons, and Alan Romanczuk in situations where they have the authority to make canonical statements on behalf of Robert Jordan.

 

I’ll cite each reference to WOT-B using the standard abbreviation of the book title and the number of the chapter. For example, (TSR 24) refers to Chapter 24 of The Shadow Rising, “Rhuidean.” I’ll cite each reference to WOT-C using a hyperlink to its source in the Theoryland interview database. Some references are generic enough that I won’t cite a specific attestation.

 

The motivation for this analysis

 

The literary conceit “There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time” (TEOTW 1) is simple enough that it can be encapsulated in a single sentence. Yet this conceit gives rise to a host of conceptual difficulties, of which I’ll mention only a few of the most prominent. Further complicating matters are the various supernatural realms of Tel’aran’rhiod (TAR) – the spirit world of WOT-U that undergirds the material world commonly known as Randland – and the existential threat of the Shadow.

 

I pose the following questions as motivation for a new theory of WOT metaphysics:

(1) By what mechanism does the Pattern periodically reset the physical evolution of WOT-U to avoid irreversible outcomes like the death of Randland’s sun (link, item 8)?

(2) Is it possible for souls to have an infinite number of past lives?

(3) Given that souls can be permanently destroyed (e.g. when a wolf dies in TAR), does that mean that the total number of souls is infinite?

(4) How is the DO able to seize permanent control of souls (e.g. Gray Men) if, as exemplified by Ingtar, “No man can walk so long in the Shadow that he cannot come again to the Light” (TGH 46)?

(5) Assuming the DO has a nonzero probability of victory in each confrontation with the Champion of the Light, isn’t there a 100% chance that the DO will eventually destroy the Pattern?

 

The Thirteenth Depository has extensively discussed these sorts of issues in articles such as this one and this one. There’s a rich tradition of metaphysical speculation in the WOT fan community, and other examples are too numerous to list here. I’ll now set forth my own theory, which takes as its starting point the multiverse that’s explicitly present in WOT-B but not fully fleshed out.

 

Realms included in the multiverse

 

The 14th-century French philosopher Nicole Oresme was the first person to systematically classify the types of universes that may exist in a multiverse (link, page 68). He identified three such types, which I’ll refer to as cyclic (universes succeeding each other in time), parallel (universes existing entirely apart from each other), and nested (universes contained within other universes). First I’ll demonstrate that WOT-B features concrete examples of both parallel and nested universes, and then I’ll show that positing the existence of cyclic universes effectively resolves the aforementioned metaphysical questions.

 

There are two universes in WOT confirmed to exist beyond WOT-U: the original realm of the Ogier, which I’ll call the Ogier Home Universe (OHU) since it doesn’t have a canonical name, and Sindhol, which is the realm of the Aelfinn and Eelfinn. These parallel universes intersect WOT-U in multiple locations, but they’re not directly accessible via TAR, which is a telltale sign that they’re not part of the Pattern. The stedding are pieces of OHU that the Ogier grafted onto WOT-U when they traveled to Randland using the Book of Translation, while Sindhol has three known access points: the two twisted red doorway ter’angreal and the Tower of Ghenjei. Each parallel universe has its own unique set of natural laws. For example, the True Source doesn’t exist in the stedding (TEOTW 29), while the curvature of space is different in Sindhol (TSR 15).

 

The evil of Shadar Logoth may have originated from an intersecting parallel universe that Mordeth accessed during his quest for power to fight the Shadow. There’s insufficient textual evidence to confirm or deny this hypothesis, but it’d explain how Padan Fain “side-stepped the Pattern” (link, item 22) by merging with Mordeth. And there may be additional parallel universes in WOT-M that don’t intersect WOT-U, though the closest WOT-B ever comes to expressing that concept is a thought in Rand’s internal monologue implied to belong to Ishamael: “The Creator had made many worlds, watched each flower or die, and gone on to make endless worlds beyond” (COT 24).

 

A nested universe is wholly contained within another universe, but doesn’t have a causal relationship with it. Examples of nested universes in WOT include vacuoles and stasis boxes. Vacuoles are miniature universes that spontaneously pop into and out of existence in the interstitial spaces of the Pattern (ACOS 25). Stasis boxes have only three dimensions, with the fourth dimension being compressed such that no time passes inside them relative to WOT-U (link, item 22).

 

Realms excluded from the multiverse

 

There are several realms in TAR governed by some form of “dream logic,” but all of these realms exist in WOT-U and don’t require a multiverse theory to explain how they function. My analysis of TAR generally follows this Theoryland article. TAR has four known layers: the World of Dreams (WOD), the Skimming Space (SS), the Gap of Infinity (GOI), and the Mirror Worlds (MW). A Dreamshard isn’t a nested universe, but rather a region of WOD under the temporary control of a single person. The Ways are fixed routes that traverse the SS. The three arches ter’angreal in the White Tower that a novice enters to test for Accepted and the three rings ter’angreal in Rhuidean that an apprentice Wise One enters to view a multitude of her possible lives both interface with the GOI to access the minds of MW counterparts of the user. The glass columns ter’angreal in Rhuidean that shows visions of the past and future interfaces with the GOI to access the minds of MW ancestors and descendants of the user.

 

The MW exist as part of the Pattern, but they’re only simulations. We can think of them as having a “reality parameter” (R) greater than 0 but less than 1, whereas Randland has R = 1. Though a detailed discussion is beyond the scope of this essay, I’ll note for those interested in the intersection of philosophy and physics that the MW behave like unoccupied branches of the universal wave function in Bohmian quantum mechanics (see section 17 of this article for an explanation of why these branches don’t exist in the same way that the actual world exists).

 

Cyclic universes

 

Consider the following: the Creator designs the Pattern of a universe, but also plants the seed of that universe’s destruction in the form of the DO, whose existence is inherently unstable and degrades the Pattern whenever the two are brought into contact. The nature of the Pattern is such that souls have free will to decide the universe’s fate with their individual choices. Over and over, the Light and the Shadow clash; given that there’s a nonzero probability of destroying the Pattern in each confrontation, that destruction eventually comes to pass. But the Creator is merciful and wants to give all souls, even those who turn to the Shadow, another chance to walk in the Light. To this end, the Creator designs an infinite series of universes (WOT-S), where each constituent universe has a different Pattern and DO but shares a set of common elements, which I’ll call the Basis. In this way, some features of WOT-S like its pool of souls refresh at the beginning of each new universe, while fundamental principles like the One Power are constant across all universes.

 

From the perspective of the transcendent spiritual realm occupied by the Creator, a single act generates WOT-S, the infinite Wheel of Time, which has no beginning and no end. But from the perspective of someone living in WOT-U, time has a beginning and an end, so the choices a soul makes have meaningful consequences. My theory offers a simple answer to metaphysical questions 1, 3, 4, and 5: they embody paradoxes when viewed from the perspective of WOT-U, but those paradoxes vanish at the level of WOT-S. Question 2 poses a greater challenge: according to WOT-B, during Rand’s epiphany atop Dragonmount, “He remembered lives ... stretching to infinity” (TGS 50). To address this counterargument, I’ll cite another quote from WOT-B: when Birgitte first reveals herself to Nynaeve in TAR, she says “in my oldest, faintest memories I know I had already lived a hundred times, or a thousand” (TSR 52). I contend that enough time has passed since the beginning of WOT-U that it appears infinite to the characters in WOT-B, even the Heroes of the Horn awaiting rebirth in TAR and the Dragon Reborn when he gains unfettered access to his past lives.

 

The above explanation implies that WOT-U has three fundamental components: the Pattern, the DO, and the Basis. This framework is reminiscent of when Verin tells Egwene that WOT-U has three constants: the Creator, the DO, and TAR (TDR 21). My theory modifies Verin’s by substituting WOT-U as a whole (the Pattern) for its spirit world (TAR) and introducing the notion of the Basis to represent the immanent hand of the Creator. Thus, the three components are on equal metaphysical footing, since they’re all made by the Creator, unlike in Verin’s description where TAR is subordinate to the Creator and the DO’s relation to both is somewhat ill-defined. Parallel universes like OHU and Sindhol are part of WOT-M, the Creator’s multiverse, but they’re not part of WOT-S. Perhaps they have their own time series, or perhaps they follow different paradigms.

 

My theory of cyclic universes in WOT has a real-life scientific analog, which I’ll briefly summarize here using a minimum of physics jargon. In the Steinhardt-Turok cosmological model, the interaction between two 5-dimensional objects called branes in the 11-dimensional spacetime of M-theory generates an infinite time series of 4-dimensional universes. (M-theory is a unification of different versions of string theory; the “M” doesn’t stand for “multiverse,” though it’s a neat coincidence.) Both WOT-M and this model feature all three possible kinds of universes in a multiverse: cyclic (our universe being an example), parallel (other branes hosting other universes), and nested (lower-dimensional universes existing in a higher-dimensional spacetime).

 

Conclusion

 

Like any fan theory dealing with the core metaphysics of WOT, this essay is highly speculative, but I assert that it explains an impressive variety of phenomena in WOT-B without contradicting canonical sources of information. I welcome questions and comments. To sum up: WOT had a multiverse before it became cool; Ishamael was right, but he’s still wrong; and Hopper lives!

Edited February 20, 2023 by WTES

[DojoToad]

Welcome to Dragonmount.

[Scarloc99]

I can’t find the quote but Robert Jordan states that the rules of Thermodynamics do not apply in his universe the same as they do in ours. He stated in that interview that the sun would never die and never change form, it would be endless and constant. 
 

This quote by him about his world indicates that the fact you have magic in the world means you can’t apply real world physics theories to Randland. In fact the very fact the one power exists seems to break the fundamental rules of thermodynamics. The one power is infinite, a source that will never run out. 
 

You also make 2 assumptions one of which is wrong, the other might be wrong. 
 

The Ogier came from a different world, it is not suggested this world is in a different universe. Randland exists in a version of our own universe with the many galaxies like ours. In fact in the first age man went to the moon and maybe, during the age of legends travelled further, in fact just as Ogier came to earth so humans may have gone to their home planet. Or humanity may exist out among the stars living on planets populated during the age of legends. Whatever the case there it seems most likely The Ogier come from our universe just a different planet. 
 

The Finn, may come from an alternative universe, one in which there are no humans, but they may also simply come from another part of our universe. The strange physics of the world mearly the application of not yet understood technologies. Or they may live near a black hole or other spacial phenomenon. The fact they feed of those who can channel may indicate they don’t have the genetic ability to channel themselves, or had got rid of the channeling gene by feasting on their own who could channel. The fact they wear skins indicates this would not go against their own morales. 
 

Likewise the Ogier may simply come from planet that for some reason has a natural ability stop the one power. Or they may never have discovered it and so evolves different abilities. 
 

We do see the Randland version of a multiverse. But it is made clear none of those worlds are sustainable there is no “earth” equivalent, where humanity thrives and exists. That isn’t to say it doesn’t exist, but, we have not seen it. 
 

It is clear that the wheel Of time has resurrection. There are obviously clear questions, if there is life throughout the universe as is suggested by the Finn and Ogier, then you need to ask is each planet tied to its own tapestry. Do “souls” wait out in distinct areas. It is clear that the world of dreams exists only on our own planet, so this suggests that the universe is split into distinct patches of thread. This suggests that Earth does indeed have a defined number of souls and, there is a possibility that the ending of an age (generally involving a large battle or cataclysm) comes about because the souls in the pattern are running out. But there is also the question do only “key” souls get resurrected? 
 

In terms of grey men etc we don’t know enough about that process. Does the Dark Lord permanently destroy the soul in the same way Balefire does. Does it sit in a holding pattern, linked by the weakest of threads waiting to be released once the host is killed. Do Trollocs have souls given they where formed originally from humans.

 

But resurrection itself is proof again that the laws of thermodynamics behave differently in Randland. Again this can be handwaved as “magic exists”.
 

But that is the biggest thing that throws all attempts to apply the meta physicia of our universe to Randland. Magic exists, real defining magic that people can use to do all sorts of wonderous things. That and the fact there is a creator and a dark lord who actually exist and interact with the world, one directly the other indirectly. But alongside that there is predefined pattern for the world many individuals have limited free will there roles pre determined by the pattern. 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

7 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

But resurrection itself

Resurrection is not shown, only re-incarnation (into a stolen body) with the memories from the immediately prior life retained.

[Scarloc99]

22 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Resurrection is not shown, only re-incarnation (into a stolen body) with the memories from the immediately prior life retained.

Yes I mis stated myself there you are right 

[WTES]

On 2/20/2023 at 6:56 PM, Sir_Charrid said:

... the rules of Thermodynamics do not apply in [the WOT] universe the same as they do in ours. ... the sun would never die and never change form, it would be endless and constant.

True, but given that Randland is Earth in another Age (link, item 40), the question naturally arises: how can we reconcile our current understanding of the Sun with the way it behaves in WOT? My theory assumes that our laws of physics are incomplete and the metaphysics of WOT represents the actual nature of reality. Positing the existence of a time series of universes, in which no universe lasts long enough for the Sun to end its main sequence phase, can then account for this discrepancy.

On 2/20/2023 at 6:56 PM, Sir_Charrid said:

In terms of grey men etc we don’t know enough about that process.

Also true, but as with the Sun, this is merely an open question that motivated the development of my theory, not a premise of my theory itself.

On 2/20/2023 at 6:56 PM, Sir_Charrid said:

The Ogier came from a different world, it is not suggested this world is in a different universe.

On 2/20/2023 at 6:56 PM, Sir_Charrid said:

The Finn, may come from an alternative universe, one in which there are no humans, but they may also simply come from another part of our universe.

On 2/20/2023 at 6:56 PM, Sir_Charrid said:

It is clear that the world of dreams exists only on our own planet, so this suggests that the universe is split into distinct patches of thread.

What are your sources for these claims? There’s ample evidence that WOD is present throughout the Pattern (the in-world term for “universe”), e.g., Verin’s explanation of TAR that I cite in my essay (TDR 21) and Egwene's thoughts about other worlds on an occasion when she's floating in the Gap of Infinity (LOC 14). Neither the stedding nor Sindhol are accessible from TAR (link, item 20), which implies they’re not part of the Pattern. Therefore, they must belong to other universes, or Parallel Worlds in WOT-speak (not to be confused with Mirror Worlds, which are part of the Pattern as argued in the Theoryland research article that my essay cites).

 

The remainder of your post boils down to the following rebuttal, which misunderstands my intentions:

On 2/20/2023 at 6:56 PM, Sir_Charrid said:

... the fact you have magic in the world means you can’t apply real world physics theories to Randland.

I mentioned a couple of real-life physics theories only as suggested further reading in case people find my ideas interesting. I’ve based my argument solely on verifiable facts about how the WOT universe works and extrapolated from the books’ internal logic in an attempt to resolve some of its associated paradoxes. There’s nothing wrong with your stated preference for handwaving away those paradoxes, but considering the remarkable sophistication of Robert Jordan’s metaphysics, I think it’s also perfectly valid to theorize about his world using an approach that reflects the level of care he put into creating it.

Edited February 25, 2023 by WTES

[Scarloc99]

6 hours ago, WTES said:

True, but given that Randland is Earth in another Age (link, item 40), the question naturally arises: how can we reconcile our current understanding of the Sun with the way it behaves in WOT? My theory assumes that our laws of physics are incomplete and the metaphysics of WOT represents the actual nature of reality. Positing the existence of a time series of universes, in which no universe lasts long enough for the Sun to end its main sequence phase, can then account for this discrepancy.

Also true, but as with the Sun, this is merely an open question that motivated the development of my theory, not a premise of my theory itself.

What are your sources for these claims? There’s ample evidence that WOD is present throughout the Pattern (the in-world term for “universe”), e.g., Verin’s explanation of TAR that I cite in my essay (TDR 21) and Egwene's thoughts about other worlds on an occasion when she's floating in the Gap of Infinity (LOC 14). Neither the stedding nor Sindhol are accessible from TAR (link, item 20), which implies they’re not part of the Pattern. Therefore, they must belong to other universes, or Parallel Worlds in WOT-speak (not to be confused with Mirror Worlds, which are part of the Pattern as argued in the Theoryland research article that my essay cites).

 

The remainder of your post boils down to the following rebuttal, which misunderstands my intentions:

I mentioned a couple of real-life physics theories only as suggested further reading in case people find my ideas interesting. I’ve based my argument solely on verifiable facts about how the WOT universe works and extrapolated from the books’ internal logic in an attempt to resolve some of its associated paradoxes. There’s nothing wrong with your stated preference for handwaving away those paradoxes, but considering the remarkable sophistication of Robert Jordan’s metaphysics, I think it’s also perfectly valid to theorize about his world using an approach that reflects the level of care he put into creating it.

RJ stated in interview and at conventions that this is not “our” earth. It is a version of it in a different universe, where as I say the heat death of the universe is not a thing. The sun won’t die and neither will the universe. I believe any theory must take the authors own statements about his universe on board. your sumation that the universe would die before the sun goes in direct opposition to RJ’s own metaphysics. 
 

You also seem to be assuming that humans are the only intelligent creatures in the known universe. That is a valid idea to have about the wot universe, but, the fact the Ogier have the book of translation and the fact that what little has been written of this gives the possibility that Ogier have travelled from another planet in the same universe as opposed to another universe is something that has to be taken into account of any theory. So if your assumption is that the Ogier have come from another universe are you suggesting the WOT universe contains no other intelligent life anywhere within it? 
 

I make the assumption that the world of dreams is limited to Randland because we have seen nothing to suggest otherwise. No one travels to the moon or Mars for instance within it, something that in theory would be possible with a thought. However I agree mine is an assumption based on lack of anything to oppose it. The fact however that Stedding are not accessible in TAR does back up the theory that TAR is planet limited, if we consider that Stedding somehow recreate the conditions of the Ogier home world and in some way stop the one power. 
 

In fact the Ogier and the Finn could be considered opposite ends of the same thread. The Finn feed on those who channel, Ogiers home restricts and stops the use of the one power. If a species was a known hunter of those who channel then the ability to nullify it would be a great defense to stop it being detected. That is a new thought of mine right now and needs some thought. 
 

The Finn again we don’t know enough about so can only surmise and guess as to the origin, but, the fact they have so much knowledge of the universe and the pattern does strongly suggest that they come from within the same universe. But, no where is the pattern defined as laying across the whole universe. We don’t see any evidence of non human souls existing in it, in fact we don’t know that Ogier reside in or are part of the pattern. They state that in order for the 4th age to start they must return home, meaning leaving the whole world. This suggests they are outside the pattern which would then suggest the pattern is not universe wide. (If you go with the theory the Ogier are not from a different universe). 
 

If the creator trapped the dark one in a prison, and that prison is meant to keep him kept away from the universe, then it is also a possibility that the “prison” is not in fact just the bore, but the whole planet and every soul that exists on it. A mechanism to allow the rest of the universe to proceed unaffected. The dragon and the 7 age cycle simply a way of ensuring the universe evolves as it should. The tapestry laying over only the planet earth with souls picked by the creator weaved into it at the start of time. 
 

I do love these debates and fully accept that neither of us will ever be proven wrong or right. But I do think the facts laid out by RJ concerning the sun and universe have to be taken as given lore and built into any theory. We also have to realize that any in universe explanation is always given by an unreliable narrator so can never be taken as fact RJ purposely had his characters get things wrong about the world. 

Edited February 25, 2023 by Sir_Charrid

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

3 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

We don’t see any evidence of non human souls existing in it, in fact we don’t know that Ogier reside in or are part of the pattern. They state that in order for the 4th age to start they must return home, meaning leaving the whole world. This suggests they are outside the pattern which would then suggest the pattern is not universe wide. (If you go with the theory the Ogier are not from a different universe). 

I think we know the opposite - an Ogier (loial) is in precisely the time and place required by the pattern to allow the pursuit through the ways - and is only there due to acting in a very un-ogier way in leaving the stedding at all.  Clearly he is part of the web being influenced by the ta'veren and therefore part of the pattern.

 

Also it is not stated that they must leave for the 4th age to start - only that they must leave before the age of legends returns, presumably because the much longer memories of ogier would retain knowledge of the dark one for too long - either they are present only in some turnings or wherever they go time passes much more quickly than in the human world, suggesting a differing universe or mirror world.

 

Similarly sindol has widely differing physics to the main world (such that turning and going back does not retrace your steps) - meaning the most reasonable conclusion is they are part of a differing universe or world. 

[Scarloc99]

6 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

I think we know the opposite - an Ogier (loial) is in precisely the time and place required by the pattern to allow the pursuit through the ways - and is only there due to acting in a very un-ogier way in leaving the stedding at all.  Clearly he is part of the web being influenced by the ta'veren and therefore part of the pattern.

 

Also it is not stated that they must leave for the 4th age to start - only that they must leave before the age of legends returns, presumably because the much longer memories of ogier would retain knowledge of the dark one for too long - either they are present only in some turnings or wherever they go time passes much more quickly than in the human world, suggesting a differing universe or mirror world.

 

Similarly sindol has widely differing physics to the main world (such that turning and going back does not retrace your steps) - meaning the most reasonable conclusion is they are part of a differing universe or world. 

I might be mis remembering the quote but looking throughout various resources online it seems the general consensus is the Ogier state they must leave through the book of translation for the 4th age to start, not the age of legends. 
 

I also don’t think you can say Loial is baked into the pattern. He is more drawn in by his close proximity to Rand. We don’t see any Ogier in the horn and we don’t have any indication that Ogier believe there souls are reincarnated. Again happy to correct that thought if you can provide quotes or information I have missed but it seems something that Loial would have commented on. 
 

With Sindol as I said in my original post this may well be in a different universe, but, the strange geometry retracing your steps etc could also be an indication of a far advanced technology within our own universe, or a planet that exists in some strange situation, orbiting a black hole. There are many explanations beyond alternate universes. 
 

Because we have no proof either way I take the view that Sindol and the Ogier come from a planet in our own universe, possibly not even in the Milky Way. The vagaries of traveling large distances and time dilation means the Finn could be far into the future and could indicate that during the AOL many other species of intelligent life where identified throughout the cosmos, and, possibly Humanity spread outwards as well. Traveling to other planets before the breaking. I just refuse to believe that in the vast expanse of the universe the only intelligent beings within it are on Randland meaning trillions of stars and planets that exist for no purpose. 
 

 

Edited February 26, 2023 by Sir_Charrid

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

2 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

He is more drawn in by his close proximity to Rand.

That might explain his actions after Caemlyn - but why was he there in the first place?  It is hugely improbable that any Ogier would be in the Queen's Blessing when Rand arrived, let alone one who had studied the ways and was reckless and impressionable enough to agree to do so.  

 

Also I did not say they were needed for the age of legends, only that they have to depart at some stage before it comes again.

[Scarloc99]

26 minutes ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

That might explain his actions after Caemlyn - but why was he there in the first place?  It is hugely improbable that any Ogier would be in the Queen's Blessing when Rand arrived, let alone one who had studied the ways and was reckless and impressionable enough to agree to do so.  

 

Also I did not say they were needed for the age of legends, only that they have to depart at some stage before it comes again.

If we are to assume the next age of legends must be after a hard reset then this is true. Humanity needs to be put in a position where all technology and knowledge of the one power is lost entirely and humanity has no sense of anything not “human”. Ogier must therefore either die out or leave. Or there has to be some huge cosmic reset. 
 

As for why he was there, the tapestry can make things happen, are we saying Fades, Trollcos, Gollum etc are also weaved into the tapestry? If we believe Ogier are then we must accept that every living sentient being in Randland is also weaved in. So that trolloc soul is destined to emerge again in some form? Or do they now sit, unused? 
 

When Ogier leave are there souls spun out of the pattern as well? Do Ogier only resurrect as Ogier? This works only if Ogier are from within our universe and the pattern is universe wide, but, as I say if that where the case then there would be some other evidence of intelligent life in the world of dreams, the horn, or just in the tapestry. The dragon being able to be reborn on earth, or alpha Ceti, or the narn homeworld. So it makes more sense if the “tapestry” is a Randland only concept or idea. Which then feeds back into the idea of the whole of Randland being the dark ones prison to keep the universe safe.