POV: Martin vs Jordan?

[Rhaegar Targaryen]

Who do you think has better skill with different POVs?

 

 

I think George R. R. Martin and Robert Jordan are the best in building POV and getting you into character's thoughts and head, but I would give an edge to Martin, mostly because what he tries to do with his POVs is a bit harder.

 

 

Thoughts?

[DojoToad]

I don't know that I could pick one.  I enjoyed both series immensely.  And that means things like point of view, character development, world building, etc. are invisible from my perspective.  If they were done well, I don't notice.

 

But just for sake of your question I will give the edge to Jordan because the series is finished!!!

[wotfan4472]

I think Jordan is a better POV writer than Martin. Martin does not change the character voice when different POV characters are at the same location at different parts of the story, unless he wants to point out a difference that he will use in a later plot.

 

With Jordan, you often entered the exact same location, and the character describes the exact same location totally differently. Like when the Wonder Girls entered the exact same Inn that Mat and Thom did in a number of books. The Wonder Girls noticed totally different things that Mat and Thom did.

 

One of those was the innkeeper, and the interactions each group had with him, as much as the inn itself. Obviously, Mat and Thom liked the inn and got good information they needed. The Wonder Girls did not, and so missed information, because the innkeeper was intimidate into not telling them. Which was about a seanchan enemy pursuing them.

Edited August 20, 2022 by wotfan4472

[Scarloc99]

Personally for me Jordan has it, re reading the series again after a break of about 7 years I am noticing that his strongest ability is in how he can put across moments of such power in just a few words. 

One example of this is the battle for Emonds Field, the build up to that has taken pages and pages Perrin has sent Faile away and you understand exactly how he is feeling, in just a few sentences you get the image of him moving through the village. The women gathered around the town square, surrounding the children "just in case". Understanding and respecting him for sending Faile away. Jordan then does not waste pages and pages describing the battle, he gives you instances, all from Perrins perspective. The picket line breaking, the Aiel fighing back to back, falling, Aes Sedai and Warders fighting off trollocs, Perrin himself pulled from the horse and then, the women fighting pushing the trollocs back. 

That whole battle occupies what, a few pages, a tiny proportion of the entire book but covering a huge event, a battle which lasts much longer then it takes to read. But in those few words you get the picture of the entire battle, and more importantly, the fear, determination and acceptance of all those involved. I remember almost cheering as the women came the line to fight, as the reinforcements then arrived. I find George RR Matin lacks that succinct ability to tell so much in so so few words. 

[DojoToad]

23 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

That whole battle occupies what, a few pages, a tiny proportion of the entire book but covering a huge event, a battle which lasts much longer then it takes to read. But in those few words you get the picture of the entire battle, and more importantly, the fear, determination and acceptance of all those involved. I remember almost cheering as the women came the line to fight, as the reinforcements then arrived. I find George RR Matin lacks that succinct ability to tell so much in so so few words. 

Meaning you didn't cheer out loud, but did do so internally.  Right?

 

It's all I can do not to cry when the women join the line.  And then Faile arrives with the reinforcements...

 

Jordan was a master of making the reader (or me at least) feel the emotion of the situation.  In your example: resolve, resignation, anger, grief, hope, joy...

[Scarloc99]

14 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Meaning you didn't cheer out loud, but did do so internally.  Right?

 

It's all I can do not to cry when the women join the line.  And then Faile arrives with the reinforcements...

 

Jordan was a master of making the reader (or me at least) feel the emotion of the situation.  In your example: resolve, resignation, anger, grief, hope, joy...

Oh I got a tear in my eye as well and yes a big cheer internally and almost out loud (but I was in public lol) I do find I have always re read those few pages 2-3 times every time I come to them and read them again. But yes in those moments Jordan was great at putting across emotion without shoving down your throat how everyone feels. And he understands he doesn't need to use pages and pages to paint the picture of that moment. 

It does make me wonder how differently the last battle would have been written by him, I feel it would have needed less words and would have delivered more of an emotional punch. 

[DojoToad]

3 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Oh I got a tear in my eye as well and yes a big cheer internally and almost out loud (but I was in public lol) I do find I have always re read those few pages 2-3 times every time I come to them and read them again. But yes in those moments Jordan was great at putting across emotion without shoving down your throat how everyone feels. And he understands he doesn't need to use pages and pages to paint the picture of that moment. 

It does make me wonder how differently the last battle would have been written by him, I feel it would have needed less words and would have delivered more of an emotional punch. 

Alas, we will never know...

[Scarloc99]

On 11/12/2022 at 4:06 PM, chongjasmine said:

I think Jordan is a better writer.

I have been going back and forth on this after re reading the WOT. 

I like Jordans writing style, as per the example given above he has a way of really getting emotion across on a page without saying "Perrin was upset, angry, scared". He portrays it all instead through what his characters do and say. 

But

There are no shades of grey in his writing style. The good guys are good, the bad guys are bad. His reasons for the bad guys turning bad are generally a little weak, you never really understand why the forsaken turned. None of his bad guys, with the exception of Ingtar are sympathetic, and Ingtar you get barely a few pages to process what he is before he dies and it is never revisited later in the series. 

Now this is partly because of the time the series was written, you could say the idea of a sympathetic bad guy in fantasy has really only kicked in the last 20 or so years. As has the idea of a truly flawed hero, not saying they didn't exist earlier, but it was a rare idea. I remember reading Thomas Covenant and just being shocked at the idea that the "good guy" could be written to be so flawed and do such terrible things on their journey. 

But in terms of how he paints his worlds and the characters in them, yes, Jordan gets it for me. 

[Scarloc99]

I also want to add, that Battle of Emonds Field scene demonstrates just how hard it is to turn the written word into something for the screen. 

That whole sequence (the actual battle of Emonds Field)  takes seconds to read after so much time spent reading the buildup. 

On the screen that "set piece" really needs what, 30 minutes at least of time just from the moment the Trollocs appear for that final battle to the moment Faile and Perrin see each other again, you could argue it might need longer. As a proportion of the book it is tiny, but that will mean other moments need to be cut and changed because. 

You can compare it to Helms Deep, in the movie that battle is what, 40 minutes long, but in the books takes up about 10 pages (for the battle part) and JRR Tolkien described a lot more about the actual battle then Jordan does and really Emonds Field need to be WOT Helms deep moment (to the point I almost wish Faile had said, at sunrise on the 5th day look for me my love 😉 ) 

[DojoToad]

On 11/25/2022 at 7:08 AM, Sir_Charrid said:

I also want to add, that Battle of Emonds Field scene demonstrates just how hard it is to turn the written word into something for the screen. 

That whole sequence (the actual battle of Emonds Field)  takes seconds to read after so much time spent reading the buildup. 

On the screen that "set piece" really needs what, 30 minutes at least of time just from the moment the Trollocs appear for that final battle to the moment Faile and Perrin see each other again, you could argue it might need longer. As a proportion of the book it is tiny, but that will mean other moments need to be cut and changed because. 

 

Yes.  But much depends on what the viewer/reader wants.  I'm fine with cutting other moments to get more time with battles.  Other folks will be willing to sacrifice fighting to show more political intrigue - and that can require as much buildup as anything else.

 

On 11/25/2022 at 7:08 AM, Sir_Charrid said:

You can compare it to Helms Deep, in the movie that battle is what, 40 minutes long, but in the books takes up about 10 pages (for the battle part) and JRR Tolkien described a lot more about the actual battle then Jordan does and really Emonds Field need to be WOT Helms deep moment (to the point I almost wish Faile had said, at sunrise on the 5th day look for me my love 😉 ) 

👍

[slynese]

I prefer Jordan.