Towers at midnight

[Pembie]

I like that Egwene is going against Rand trying to stop him breaking the seals and Perrin fighting his inner wolf 

 

I have enjoyed the last five books so far better than the start of the series 

 

I don’t remember Perrin killing that Gererals father though the reason the white cloaks are after him

[Andra]

11 hours ago, Pembie said:

I like that Egwene is going against Rand trying to stop him breaking the seals and Perrin fighting his inner wolf 

 

I have enjoyed the last five books so far better than the start of the series 

 

I don’t remember Perrin killing that Gererals father though the reason the white cloaks are after him

He didn't kill him.  That was kind of Perrin's point in the whole discussion.

 

Geofram Bornhald was the commander of the group of Whitecloaks that captured Perrin and Egwene all the way back in the first book.  Jaret Byar was his second.  Geofram Bornhald's son was Dain Bornhald, who is traveling with Galad by this point in the story.

 

By the end of the second book, Bornhald was on Toman Head, and decided he needed to fight the Seanchan.  When Rand was fighting Ba'alzamon in the sky, Perrin was waving the Dragon Banner and Mat was blowing the Horn.  At the same time, Bornhald and his Whitecloaks were fighting the Seanchan - and dying to their Damane.  And the Heroes of the Horn were fighting alongside all of them - against the Seanchan.

 

Ever since, Byar has believed that Perrin killed Bornhald (Dain Bornhald's father) and tried to convince everyone he knew that he had done so.

[Pembie]

Very complicated stuff but thanks

[Andra]

And to add to the complication slightly:

Rand and Mat meet Dain Bornhald in Baerlon.  He is one of the Whitecloaks Mat plays the prank on with his slingshot.  He then later tries to stop the entire group from leaving through the gate in the middle of the night.

 

In book 2, when Geofram Bornhald is fighting Seanchan, Dain is with Eamon Valda (the guy with the collection of rings in the show) near Tar Valon.  He is still there early in book three, when the girls get back to the Tower from Falme, with Mat on the litter.  Bornhald (the younger) threatens them, and the girls scare his men off - earning a stern reprimand from Verin in the process.

 

He seems almost like a throwaway character in those early scenes, but Jordan uses those appearances to tie him into the story later - most prominently in the Two Rivers with Perrin and Faile.

[DojoToad]

5 hours ago, Pembie said:

Very complicated stuff but thanks

Second time through will be much easier, and by the third time you'll be a pro!

[Pembie]

I don’t see myself rereading it to be honest 

[DojoToad]

15 hours ago, Pembie said:

I don’t see myself rereading it to be honest 

It is quite a commitment and definitely not for everyone. Hope you enjoy the one time through though. 

[Pembie]

In parts I do think there’s too many political stuff in it the white tower stuff went on far too long but it had a good ending and now Egwene is fully in power I like that I would say she’s my favourite character and it’s clever that she’s going against Rand with the seals Rands good that’s his become more peed off with everything it’s put across as madness but I see it as people have driven him too his actions 

 

Perrin I still don’t really like his wolf stuff is quite interesting 

[Pembie]

Is Perrin only a wolf when he is dreaming or can he change in the real world?

 

And wolves get hunted by Slayer is he the wolves biggest enemy 

[DojoToad]

Yes (Tel'aran'rhiod) and yes.

[Andra]

19 hours ago, Pembie said:

Is Perrin only a wolf when he is dreaming or can he change in the real world?

In the World of Dreams, people who know they are there can change things about it and themselves.  Including their appearance.  In Perrin's case, that means he can choose between his appearance in the real world and that of his mental self-impression, i.e. Young Bull.  He could make himself look like anyone or presumably any other animal, but those are the two that come naturally to him.

 

That ability only exists in Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

19 hours ago, Pembie said:

And wolves get hunted by Slayer is he the wolves biggest enemy 

Slayer is the wolves' biggest enemy at the present time in the books - in Tel'aran'rhiod.  He hunts wolves in the Dream, but there's no real evidence he does so in the waking world.  Or at least not anywhere near as often.  Because it's easier to do when you can leap around.

 

By now I'm sure you realize who Slayer is.  And the two halves of his soul have only been around for a relatively short time.  Isam is roughly the same age as Lan, and so far as we know in the books, he didn't gain the ability to step into and out of the Dream at will until merging with Luc.  Something that couldn't have happened until they met in the Blight sometime less than thirty years ago.

 

Before then, and always outside the Dream World, the wolves' biggest enemy is Heartfang (their name for the Dark One).

[Pembie]

So Lan is part Slayer? I knew about Luc though I think 

[DojoToad]

4 hours ago, Andra said:

In the World of Dreams, people who know they are there can change things about it and themselves.  Including their appearance.  In Perrin's case, that means he can choose between his appearance in the real world and that of his mental self-impression, i.e. Young Bull.  He could make himself look like anyone or presumably any other animal, but those are the two that come naturally to him.

 

That ability only exists in Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

Slayer is the wolves' biggest enemy at the present time in the books - in Tel'aran'rhiod.  He hunts wolves in the Dream, but there's no real evidence he does so in the waking world.  Or at least not anywhere near as often.  Because it's easier to do when you can leap around.

 

By now I'm sure you realize who Slayer is.  And the two halves of his soul have only been around for a relatively short time.  Isam is roughly the same age as Lan, and so far as we know in the books, he didn't gain the ability to step into and out of the Dream at will until merging with Luc.  Something that couldn't have happened until they met in the Blight sometime less than thirty years ago.

 

Before then, and always outside the Dream World, the wolves' biggest enemy is Heartfang (their name for the Dark One).

LOL.  I think I said that - with much fewer words.

[Andra]

3 hours ago, Pembie said:

So Lan is part Slayer? I knew about Luc though I think 

No, Lan is not part of Slayer.

His cousin Isam is.

 

Slayer's two halves are Isam Mandragoran and Luc Mantear.

Isam is Lan's cousin, and Luc is Rand's (and Galad's) uncle.

[Pembie]

And do Rand and Ian know about it or just Perrin I didn’t realise the connections 

[Stedding Tofu]

3 hours ago, Pembie said:

And do Rand and Ian know about it or just Perrin I didn’t realise the connections 

 

They don't.  Only Perrin has encountered Luc in the waking world (in The Two Rivers during The Shadow Rising) or Slayer in Tel'aran'rhiod.  Well, Nynaeve has one momentary encounter with Slayer in TAR when she considers that he looks like a bit like Lan right before he tries to kill her. 

 

None of our characters realise the familial connections Andra noted above.  It is generally believed that Isam died as a child when Malkier was overrun and that Luc died in The Blight, both events 20 or so years before our story begins.

[Pembie]

How did I miss something that important lol

[Stedding Tofu]

1 minute ago, Pembie said:

How did I miss something that important lol

 

It's deliberately teased out in dribs and drabs over a very long time and it's downright confusing anyway ?

[Andra]

The bits about Isam and Luc individually are laid out as early as book 1 as historical background.  Isam as part of the story of the Fall of Malkier, and Luc as part of the events leading up to the Aiel War.  Their connection to each other is first mentioned in the Dark Prophecy written on the dungeon walls of Fal Dara in the beginning of book 2.  And researched by Moiraine in the same book when she and Lan visit Adeleas and Vandene.

 

Various other bits of their stories appear throughout the books - like Nynaeve being almost killed in Tel'aran'rhiod by someone she thinks looks like Lan (as @Stedding Tofu mentioned) or Rand's father Janduin leaving for the Blight after Shaiel's death, and being killed there by someone who he thinks looks like her.

 

Or more overtly - in Far Madding, where Slayer has been sent to kill Rand (and Min), he refers to him as his nephew.

 

[Pembie]

Still getting confused at this late stage I’m bit disappointed that Egwene is getting targeted by a Bloodknife? Sent by the Empress I’m not sure why Why can’t it just be the Forsaken lol

 

Perrins training in the nightmare is very much like what you have to do to become a accepted in the White Tower 

[Asthereal]

On 4/30/2022 at 7:54 PM, Pembie said:

How did I miss something that important lol

 

It not only was teased very subtly. I missed it completely as well and got it spoiled to me on the internet before the definitive reveal in book 14. So slight shame on Andra for doing the same. ? 

But if you're interested: the first hint comes in book 2 already. This one is very well foreshadowed, but only if you have an idetic memory. ? 

 

As to Egwene getting targeted by the Bloodknives: the Empress sent the Bloodknives to kill as many Aes Sedai as possible, and Egwene's their leader, so she has a pretty big target on her back. The Seanchan believe channelers need to be imprisoned and controlled, because otherwise they become too dangerous. They see uncollared marath'damane as the biggest threat to their empire possible.

Edited May 2, 2022 by Asthereal

[Pembie]

I don’t mind finding out about Slayer I don’t think I will go back read the story again to pick out these hints anyway so I don’t mind

[Pembie]

I go watch the show when I am finished 

[Andra]

18 hours ago, Asthereal said:

 

It not only was teased very subtly. I missed it completely as well and got it spoiled to me on the internet before the definitive reveal in book 14. So slight shame on Andra for doing the same. ? 

But if you're interested: the first hint comes in book 2 already. This one is very well foreshadowed, but only if you have an idetic memory. ? 

I wouldn't call it a spoiler so much as simply a missed reference.

Both Isam and Luc are mentioned in book 1.  They are explicitly connected (in the Dark Prophecy) early in book 2.  Perrin encounters them both - one in the Wolf Dream and the other in real life by name - in book 4.  And the character explicitly calls Rand his nephew in book 9.

By the time you get to Towers of Midnight, it should already be clear who Slayer's two parts are.

[Andra]

This is a very dense, very complex story.  There is no shame in missing details the first time reading it.

But it doesn't make hearing those details a spoiler if you've already been through the parts where they are mentioned.