trying to understand the Shadow's actions in books 2-3

[aburuq]

Hi all. I read books 1-11 between 2004-2006, and then left the series. Started again after watching the show, and am in the middle of Book 3. Trying to figure out how certain things make sense, hoping more experienced readers can help.

The gist of it is that it seems there are plenty of opportunities for the Shadow to take care of business that they don't take, and I don't get why (other than the usual plot incoherence in such stories)... Here are a few:
-if either Ba'alzaman or another forsaken or the DO himself wanted Egwene and Nyneave out of the picture so that they couldn't help Rand ... why go through the trouble of having Liandrin take them to the Seanchean to be enslaved, as opposed to just killing them? Liandrin could have easily put an end to them, and they'd be out of the way. 
-similarly, they seem to confront Egwene, Perrin, Rand, etc in the dream world often, they are able to just get them there or encounter them when they want to, or often enough... considering those characters have no clue what the dream world even is and no idea how to control things there, they could easily just kill them off in there, no? not remembering how stuff works exactly in the dream world, but it definitely seems based on what I remember and what has been presented so far that they could go there and mess them up.

-I remember the thing about Verin ending up a double-agent black ajah ... but how does she maintain her oath to the DO and get away with the things she's doing, doesn't seem to make sense. Like if they want Egwene and Nyneave either taken prisoner or killed, they have Verin with them taking this long journey from Toman Head to Tar Valon, and she does nothign to them ... why wouldn't they order Verin to do stuff to them, even if she doesn't genuinely want to, isn't she bound to obey??

-it seems very inconsistent whether the forces of the shadow want Rand dead or not ... sometimes they try to kill him, other times they just want to convince him to join with them. Like does Ba'alzaman want him dead? again, couldn't they kill him in dream world? 

 

stuff like that. 

[KakitaOCU]

The problem here is the Orders are coming from Ba'al, and until the very end of book 3, he doesn't want Rand and company dead, he wants them turned.  Because realistically it takes Rand or someone similar ripping open the DO's seal and letting him free to win,

As for the BA, the oaths are all around not betraying the shadow (interpretations are fun) and selfishness.  And you can lie.  Verin can easily say she never got the chance, Mat was always watching, or Hurin and her oath to keep the BA secret meant she couldn't be overt.   It's flimsy, but it's the type of thing that would be believed if you think EVERYONE is out for themselves only.

[aburuq]

3 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

The problem here is the Orders are coming from Ba'al, and until the very end of book 3, he doesn't want Rand and company dead, he wants them turned.  Because realistically it takes Rand or someone similar ripping open the DO's seal and letting him free to win,

As for the BA, the oaths are all around not betraying the shadow (interpretations are fun) and selfishness.  And you can lie.  Verin can easily say she never got the chance, Mat was always watching, or Hurin and her oath to keep the BA secret meant she couldn't be overt.   It's flimsy, but it's the type of thing that would be believed if you think EVERYONE is out for themselves only.

 

thanks that helps a lot! but what about the Seanchan thing? Like if they had those 13 sisters that then left the tower, they could have forcibly turned them. What was the point of handing them over to the seanchan? 

Edited February 9, 2022 by aburuq

[Andra]

39 minutes ago, aburuq said:

 

thanks that helps a lot! but what about the Seanchan thing? Like if they had those 13 sisters that then left the tower, they could have forcibly turned them. What was the point of handing them over to the seanchan? 

I believe the Seanchan thing was about both getting them off the continent (they were supposed to have been shipped off as soon as feasible) and gaining the use of their strength - without having to go through the trouble of actually turning them.

Slap collars on them, and put them through the soul-breaking training, and who needs 13 Myrddraal?

[Asthereal]

11 hours ago, Andra said:

I believe the Seanchan thing was about both getting them off the continent (they were supposed to have been shipped off as soon as feasible) and gaining the use of their strength - without having to go through the trouble of actually turning them.

Slap collars on them, and put them through the soul-breaking training, and who needs 13 Myrddraal?

Also, the Seanchan forces were under the command of Suroth, who was a darkfriend, and Semirhage had positioned herself as main advisor to the future Empress. The Seanchan Return at that point in the story is mostly under control of the Shadow.

 

But let's face it: the main reason is we need to introduce a new culture which can act as a serious antagonistic force to our heroes. It's still a fantasy story, after all. ? 

[KakitaOCU]

14 hours ago, Andra said:

I believe the Seanchan thing was about both getting them off the continent (they were supposed to have been shipped off as soon as feasible) and gaining the use of their strength - without having to go through the trouble of actually turning them.

Slap collars on them, and put them through the soul-breaking training, and who needs 13 Myrddraal?

I'd say Andra's approach is the right one.

There is also an alternate answer that fits too.  Stupidity, vanity and pettiness.  It's possible that Liandrin's orders were something as blank as "remove these three as pieces on the board" with the intention being to turn or kill them but Liandrin decided it would be "better" to give them to the Seanchan.

It could also be a conflicting orders thing (We see that Slayer gets told to go in multiple directions frequently).  Maybe Mesanna orders their elimination as threats meaning death, and then a day later we get the DF Social and Ba'al orders them kept alive and work on making them tools.  Now Liandrin's in a bind because two very powerful leaders have ordered opposing paths.  Bringing them to the Seanchan is a loophole.

[AdamA]

The inconsistency is just due to the various forsaken not being on the same page. It's not clear to us this is the case yet this early as readers. As far as we know, the dark one is actually coordinating all the dark friends, but that turns out not to be true. They're taking orders from forsaken, and they're often plotting against each other and aren't trying to achieve the same things. Some of them want Rand dead, but some don't. Handing the girls over to the Seanchan instead of killing them could have been setting the stage for devastating future attacks as a fallback plan if they're not able to turn Rand. Attack him with Nynaeave and Egwene as damane, and he very likely freezes up and fails to fight back.

[Andra]

One of the things to remember about the Shadow in general, and the Forsaken in particular:

Up until the actual beginning of Tarmon Gai'don, the Dark One expressly wanted to see competition among his followers.  He actually rewarded those who stepped on others to get ahead.

Unless he gave specific orders (like "increase chaos" or "find me these three young men" or "hurt the people who oppose me") they all operated according to their own agendas and made their own alliances and rivalries.  And their internecine competition could be just as deadly to them as to the forces of the Light.

 

It seemed like the forces of the Shadow operated according to one set of goals at the beginning, because they did - Ishamael's goals.  He was the only one of the Forsaken who was free, and the DO couldn't touch the world himself until the seals started failing.

 

As soon as the Forsaken got free, you suddenly had all their individual agendas driving things.  In some cases in opposite directions.

[EmreY]

7 hours ago, Andra said:

One of the things to remember about the Shadow in general, and the Forsaken in particular:

Up until the actual beginning of Tarmon Gai'don, the Dark One expressly wanted to see competition among his followers.  He actually rewarded those who stepped on others to get ahead.

Unless he gave specific orders (like "increase chaos" or "find me these three young men" or "hurt the people who oppose me") they all operated according to their own agendas and made their own alliances and rivalries.  And their internecine competition could be just as deadly to them as to the forces of the Light.

 

It seemed like the forces of the Shadow operated according to one set of goals at the beginning, because they did - Ishamael's goals.  He was the only one of the Forsaken who was free, and the DO couldn't touch the world himself until the seals started failing.

 

As soon as the Forsaken got free, you suddenly had all their individual agendas driving things.  In some cases in opposite directions.

 

Another reason we should be grateful there's only one Chosen for the Light.  It was bad enough with one Dragon Reborn, plus two False Dragons.  Now imagine 13 Rands. ? 

Edited February 11, 2022 by EmreY

[Andra]

4 hours ago, EmreY said:

 

Another reason we should be grateful there's only one Chosen for the Light.  It was bad enough with one Dragon Reborn, plus two False Dragons.  Now imagine 13 Rands. ? 

The forces of the Light had enough problems just with normal politics.

Multiple Dragons would have pretty much guaranteed defeat.

 

Spoiler

Which is sort of what actually happened in the War of Power, according to Rand via Lews Therin's memories.

 

[KakitaOCU]

1 hour ago, Andra said:

The forces of the Light had enough problems just with normal politics.

Multiple Dragons would have pretty much guaranteed defeat.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Which is sort of what actually happened in the War of Power, according to Rand via Lews Therin's memories.

 

 

Not counting all the stuff we don't see.  What would have happened with Latra had been fully on board with the sealing?  Maybe have found the weakness or a way around it?   Or if Lews had helped with the CK, would there have been a way to use them safely?

[Andra]

6 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

 

Not counting all the stuff we don't see.  What would have happened with Latra had been fully on board with the sealing?  Maybe have found the weakness or a way around it?   Or if Lews had helped with the CK, would there have been a way to use them safely?

True, but that wasn't about stuff we see, or don't see.  Just about a speech.

Spoiler

The speech LTT gave through Rand's mouth at Merrilor.  Where he said they almost lost, because everyone thought they could command, rather than coordinating all their efforts.

Regarding Latra:

Spoiler

Also according to LTT, resealing the Bore failed because they had to touch the Dark One directly with something, and chose Saidin.  Rand solved that by using the True Power to touch him.  If both Saidin and Saidar had touched him, both would have been tainted.

And the world would have died, rather than just been broken.