Altara, Ghealdan, and the Dragon's Peace

[BlueOx]

Having just finished a re-read, I've been pondering what comes next for these nations. Altara stands to gain much in the new order of things, what with actually having sovereignty over its entire landmass for once, and then having those borders locked in by the Dragon's Peace. But just how far exactly does Altara extend, and how much does that potentially isolate Ghealdan? 

 

Some maps I've seen show the land east of Garen's Wall as belonging to Altara, at least technically (and no towns to speak of), while others show it as Andoran and still others show it as unclaimed territory. But the same pretty, in-color official map we're all used to from LoC onward (that doesn't show a border line north of Ebou Dar until darn near Whitebridge) also has "Altara" written in the far south of the country, just south of Salidar. That map shows ever other country name in the relative center of its lands, but the placement of "Altara" suggests that the northern border is approximately the Jehannah-Lugard Road. The writing of Altara is also slightly curved, from southwest to northeast, suggesting a northern border a bit north of Malden and south of the Jehannah-Lugard Road that tracks to the northeast as it gets to Remen. (In the earlier maps, it looks like the Altaran border tracks from the southwest to the northeast, leaving a swath of unclaimed land between Ghealdan, Amadicia, and Altara.)

 

But we can't just rely on maps, as the text itself is canon. Confirmed Altaran towns outside Ebou Dar include Malden, Salidar, and Remen. But Malden is described by Faile as being in the "far north" of Altara (COT ch. 9) and elsewhere as "northern Altara." Looking at the "large Altara" maps, Malden is squarely in the middle of the country. Same with Remen, one of the villages along the Jehannah-Lugard Road that Rand visits on the way to Tear in TDR (and where Moiraine/Perrin et al. follow)--it's described as being in "far northeast" Altara, but if the land east of Garen's Wall is technically Altara, Remen would be in east-central Altara, not the far northeast of anything. And Mat's campaign against the Seanchan is described throughout as being in "northern Altara," but it's all in the area around the Damona Mountains, the Malvide Narrows, and the Molvaine Gap--areas that are all south of the Jehannah-Lugard Road and that would properly be described as central or south-central Altara if the "large Altara" map is really correct. 

 

If the "large Altara" map is right, then crossing the White River/Manetherendrelle from the Two Rivers to the south would put you in Ghealdan, but slightly to the southeast would put you into Altaran territory, with Altara closer to Emond's Field than Baerlon is. I can't believe that's right. Now, we know Altara has long been a weak country and it's really a bunch of city states a few miles outside of Ebou Dar, and precisely where the Altaran border is has been irrelevant. But with borders being fixed, it sure matters now. Tylin may never have had troops garrisoned in the far north of the country, but you can bet the Seanchan will protect the full extent of a claimed Altaran border. And if it does, it leaves Ghealdan as something of a peninsula, covered by Seanchan lands on all sides except a narrow border with Andor/the Two Rivers to its north. 

 

So, other than the map arguably showing a large northern swath of uninhabited land that might technically be claimed by Altara, is there textual evidence that everything east of Garen's Wall is Altaran or at least claimed to be Altaran? The closest I can recall is the manor house where Rand met Semirhage, which was described as being in "northern Altara" a few miles from the Andoran border, and he was about 150 leagues west of Elayne in Caemlyn. If she's due east of him, then he'd have to be within spitting distance of Emond's Field, and you'd think that would merit a mention in his head. But if she's more "generally easterly," then the manor house could be nearby the Jehanna-Lugard road somewhere, and that would put Caemlyn roughly east-northeast of that location.

 

Seems like we've got two main options: (1) Small Altara, based on the books' descriptions of Malden and Remen and the Band's "northern Altara" campaign, and drawing inferences from the early maps seemingly showing a smaller Altara, the way the name is written, etc. If this is true, this chunk of land (i.e., north of the Jehannah-Lugard Road, west/south of the Manetherendrelle, and east of Garen's Wall) is unclaimed, much like the Caralain Grass and the Almoth Plain. (2) Large Altara, where Altara is approximately the same size as Andor and Saldaea, and it really is closer to Emond's Field than Baerlon is.

 

If Large Altara is true, Alliandre has to be very concerned about Ghealdan's security, the Dragon's Peace notwithstanding, and I'd expect she'd want a major road built north to Emond's Field and a bridge over the Manetherendrelle done ASAP so she doesn't have to travel through Seanchan-controlled Altara to get to Lugard (assuming that there are even still trade routes in a world where Traveling becomes more commonplace). I haven't read the big white book, so I recognize this thought experiment may well have been a waste of time, but despite the map and Rand's sense of Caemlyn in KOD Ch. 27, the better textual evidence fits a Small Altara hypothesis. 

 

So, which is it? If Large Altara is true, then Jordan frankly incorrectly described a number of locations, and if Small Altara is true, then the map is wrong and Rand perhaps misjudged his location relative to Elayne (which wouldn't be all that shocking--the bond's sense of direction is supposed to be fairly vague until you get close, IIRC). 

[boldnbeautiful]

Before I get into anything, personally I think the Dragon's Peace was Sanderson's lamest excuse and nearly ruined the series.

 

Yes, Ghealdan is a bit isolated. It was a weak nation and will stay as a weak nation with powerful allies. With their own treaty, if Seanchan attack Ghealdan, Two Rivers, Andor, Cairhien, Saldaea, and Mayene must help. These nations can call upon Aiel as well.

 

In a fantasy world like WoT, we just need to make believe that the Dragon's Peace will be enforced by the Aiel. Whether Aiel will actually fight Seanchan is debatable, but they have given their word, so we need to. In the Dragon's Peace, all nations agreed to give aid if Aiel ask for it. This wasn't there in Aviendha's vision.. only Andor gave aid and reluctantly.

 

We can deduce from few inferences that the main reason that Aiel lost to Seanchan because there was no directions. After the Last Battle, clans went their own ways since Rand is dead and Aiel had no clear directions and purposes. Most likely, Aiel warriors continue to suffer bleakness... and raided each others again. It was just Taardad who fought at the start in Aviendha's vision, so one by one, Aiel clans got swallowed up by Seanchan. 

 

Considering that Nakomi was present with Aviendha and Rand, we need to assume that the author wanted readers know that Aviendha's vision changed. With Aiel clans acting as a cohesive nations, they are no pushovers. Each Aiel Clan has like 500+ channelers. 

 

If you look at the map, there are many unsettled land. Most likely most Aiel will have moved to the Westland since they are part of the Westland now. I am sure that Ghealdan is safe if Seanchan invades.

Edited November 3, 2021 by boldnbeautiful

[BlueOx]

Thanks for the comment. I agree that Ghealdan will be in good shape if attacked--I was just curious whether their northeastern border is unclaimed territory or if it's technically Altara now. 

 

And it's not just the Wise Ones as channelers, though you're right they'll be formidable as a law enforcement group. There's the question of male Aiel channelers, who will need to be trained and find a purpose within their clans in a way that they never have before. (Will they be a separate society? A number of separate societies geared toward different uses of the Power like ajahs? Or will they just be subsumed into other societies, with channeling simply considered another skill and not essential to leadership? We know that you don't have to channel to be a Wise One, but from what I can tell, all channelers are Wise Ones, so where do the men fit into the power structure?) Once they're brought into the mix, the idea of facing the Aiel alone will be unthinkable, let alone with the rest of the nations' forces behind them. And with male channelers untainted and free in the Westlands, we should see channelers' numbers overall start to climb again as they're not culled from the genepool. Unless the Seanchan (1) start training sul'dam to channel and (2) reverse course on how they deal with male channelers--and quickly--there will be way more channelers on one side than the other. And it's not just numbers, as all signs point to more cooperation between the Black and White Towers, and between the Aiel/Sea Folk/Wetlander channelers in general. (Androl and Pevara show the utility of the double bond, both Towers realize how effective linking is and the great things that can be accomplished working together, and Cadsuane's admiration of some of the Wise Ones suggests she'll see Egwene's plan through on that.) 

 

And it's gonna be a while before the Seanchan set their sights on conquest again, as it seems like the Seanchan continent is going to take a long, long time to bring to order again, and it won't be the same once that process is done. And when they do get things back under control, how much have attitudes toward channeling changed since that time? Does the Aes Sedai/Asha'man model take root? Do they have a channeler that can create a male a'dam or are the men uncontrollable? Without a plan in place, male channelers in Seanchan will force a reckoning sooner rather than later. 

[boldnbeautiful]

39 minutes ago, BlueOx said:

I was just curious whether their northeastern border is unclaimed territory or if it's technically Altara now. 

RJ was using the map loosely. We need to read the map like in the olden days where national borders weren't so clear cut. That's why they had border disputes. 

 

Quote

There's the question of male Aiel channelers, who will need to be trained and find a purpose within their clans in a way that they never have before.

In short terms, male Aiel channelers will be more like Wise Ones instead of societies, imo. The book pretty much state that there will be changes to Aiel culture, including Wise Ones. The primary role of Wise Ones was the survival of Aiel. I don't see how Aiel Wise Ones will not utilize the BT to train Aiel male channelers considering their role as the Guardians of the Dragon's Peace. Just like female channelers were split into Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, Windfinders, and suldam/damane, I am sure male channelers will be split similar except Seanchan. The male adam does not work like the female version, so Seanchan will not be able to have male channelers.

 

Quote

And with male channelers untainted and free in the Westlands, we should see channelers' numbers overall start to climb again as they're not culled from the genepool. Unless the Seanchan (1) start training sul'dam to channel and (2) reverse course on how they deal with male channelers--and quickly--there will be way more channelers on one side than the other.

 

Unless, Seanchan can somehow modify exist male a'dam to prevent bidirectional control, I don't see how Seanchan can safely control male channelers. Seanchan from One Power is in a bad state if they continue the suldam/damane.

 

Just going by what is written in the book, you need to assume that the Dragon's Peace will stand. I think in Aviendha's vision, Rand never switched bodies. The reason is that their children never knew Rand which is unlikely considering Rand's char. Rand does seem to have a very strange power at the end. How powerful that power is unknown.

 

Another is that we know that the Aiel future changed. They are much more aware that they need to be more unified as a nation to be Guardians. The clan separations most likely will not continue for their role. More like a lose federation of states like US.

[nsmallw]

On 11/2/2021 at 8:37 PM, boldnbeautiful said:

Before I get into anything, personally I think the Dragon's Peace was Sanderson's lamest excuse and nearly ruined the series.

 

Yes, Ghealdan is a bit isolated. It was a weak nation and will stay as a weak nation with powerful allies. With their own treaty, if Seanchan attack Ghealdan, Two Rivers, Andor, Cairhien, Saldaea, and Mayene must help. These nations can call upon Aiel as well.

 

In a fantasy world like WoT, we just need to make believe that the Dragon's Peace will be enforced by the Aiel. Whether Aiel will actually fight Seanchan is debatable, but they have given their word, so we need to. In the Dragon's Peace, all nations agreed to give aid if Aiel ask for it. This wasn't there in Aviendha's vision.. only Andor gave aid and reluctantly.

 

We can deduce from few inferences that the main reason that Aiel lost to Seanchan because there was no directions. After the Last Battle, clans went their own ways since Rand is dead and Aiel had no clear directions and purposes. Most likely, Aiel warriors continue to suffer bleakness... and raided each others again. It was just Taardad who fought at the start in Aviendha's vision, so one by one, Aiel clans got swallowed up by Seanchan. 

 

Considering that Nakomi was present with Aviendha and Rand, we need to assume that the author wanted readers know that Aviendha's vision changed. With Aiel clans acting as a cohesive nations, they are no pushovers. Each Aiel Clan has like 500+ channelers. 

 

If you look at the map, there are many unsettled land. Most likely most Aiel will have moved to the Westland since they are part of the Westland now. I am sure that Ghealdan is safe if Seanchan invades.

Your post makes me curious. What are your reasons for not liking Dragon's Peace. I've not heard anyone else bring this aspect of the books up. I'd love to hear your thoughts on it, if your willing

[wotfan4472]

There exists further weaknesses with the Seanchan and the One Power. The damane cannot link with others. The maximum is two. The suldam and her damane. 

Eventually, the White Tower, Black Tower, Sea Folk and the Aiel will be able to build massive circles. If the Seanchan do invade Ghealdan, it will most likely end up facing massive circles in battle in response.

Basically, Aiel will only be vulnerable, until their Aiel male channelers are fully trained by the Black Tower, and their Wise One apprentices are fully trained by the White Tower.

This, however, depends on whether or not Cadsuaine will continue with Egwene's treaty. 

Once these steps are met, then the Aiel will be an immensely powerful political force in the Westlands. It is the same situation with the Sea Folk. They will be equally as powerful as the Aiel. The only way the Aiel become stronger than the Sea Folk, is if they learn from Graendal's knowledge.

I also do not think the Seanchan will ever overcome the issues with the male adam. They will need information about it from specific sources, and none of them are in their possession.

Moghedien is a possibility, but I doubt the Seanchan will listen to her information. Especially if Min verifies her identity the next time she sees Tuon. One whiff of Min, or Mat realising she was the spy in Tuon's camp, she is dead the instant it is known.