Again Mili, stop avoiding it and give examples from the books where the Aiel are superhuman. You havent given a SINGLE example yet. You just keep rambling on about cavalry beating that and that, making assumptions and statements without explaining them. Stop going offtopic please

1. Countless mentionings about the Aiel war, and that some "fools" think the wetlanders (all united mind you and under brilliant leadership of the five captains) routed them at the Shining Walls, when they just had done what they came for, or would have won that battle too if Laman didn't die (latter part isn't said, but it is implied).

As said the Aiel war, which by the aiel isnt even called a war. Had been going on for along time before the Union took place. About the great generals, who was a general on that time and who wasnt, im only sure of Pedan Nial from the whitecloaks. I dont know if its implied that the Aiel would have won if they had stayed and fought the entire might of all the wetlander nations(at the end i think its mentioned the wetlanders had abit over 200k soldiers, that is i think its mentioned in New Spring in one of Lans chapter, though im not sure, but that was on the end). But the Aiel did have 4 clans, 4 united clans that proberly were prepared for this punishment expedition, led by Rands Father i think. Thats alot of trained Aiel soldiers, and i say it again, everyone who is a Aiel soldier, have trained his whole life. Compared to the wetlanders, who proberly barely had anything worth mentioning in the beginning, nothing to stop the mass of Aiel(they hardly had any forwarning, the wetlanders didnt have any real contact with the Aiel except by peddlers) so them crossing the dragon wall united, came as a suprise. The wetlanders was also as you said united somehow, and i doubt it was a good mix of soldiers and generals. Just look at the Chapter where Lan promises a Arrogant Tairen to be the Anvil for a few hundred Aiel, and it turns out there is over 2000 of them.

 

I just dont agree that they did anything overpowered in the Aiel wars. They were just a too good army of trained soldiers, and they had the numbers with them from the start. And the disciplin/leadership.

 

2. After the Trollock wars, the Waste is called "the Dying Grounds" by Trollocs and Myrdraal, despite ravaging the wetlands - at the height of their military might (Mantheren and all those other nations).

Again i dont know what happened in the Waste during that time, havent really had any history on it, how the war was etc, how many trollocks. But for one thing, wasnt Mantheren betrayed? forexample. I just feel that this comes again and again, the wetlands feels alot less united.

3. Gaul and Perrin beating ten Whitecloaks.

Been reasoning about this before, its hardly impossible, just looking at the rest of the books what other people does. Or for that sake pretty much looking at any similar kind of book, be in fantasy or some kind of warhistory roman. The odds really isnt that great, at least not compared 2 what they do later.

4. 100 odd Aiel taking the Stone of Tear. Even Birgitte, Faith of the Light, Silverbow, wouldn't try to sneak into the Stone, save for Gaidal.

Closer to 200 Aiel i think, i know it was above 150. And again, the defenders of the stone is pretty much cermonial guards, pretty much like the guys we got standing outside our Swedish Castle in Stockholm who stands still infront of a door for hours without moving. And it wasnt a siege, the Aiel entered the stone without the defenders knowing it. They climbed the same way as Rand, which does take some skill and strength, but at least they wear Pajamases, hey! :)

5. The Shaido nearly scaling the walls of Cairhien three times, without ladders or other equipment.

This i dont know, that is just because its said that they didnt use ladders in the books(if it does, dont remember that) it doesnt matter that they didnt use something to try and get over the walls. Its just not really written that much about in the books.

Besides the reasons why they almost got over is naturally because they were so many. This wasnt some 35000 or so soldiers laying siege to a city like with Elayne and Caemlyn. This was around 170-180 thousand spears. And before Rand came with his army, there was nothing there to threaten them.

6. Kinda flimsy, but but the way they are described. They are all described almost "warderesque", in lack of a better term. (ex. Ingtar, the Shienarian Heavy Horse soldier guy, says that stopping Stone Dogs charging is like trying to stop an avalance - even you all agree that Heavy Horse > Aiel in cotton if they charge at eachother). 

I dont agree that Cavalery owns Aiel, its to easy to say. Instead you should say something else, prepare a scenario and present it where cavalery owns infantery.

Besides I still dont think of Aiel as infantery. Just because they use their legs doesnt make them into it necessary, not in the strictess form. They are extremly adaptable, and one of their favourit tactics is running up on the flanks surrounding their quarry which is alot more similar to cavalery who cuts away at the flanks, even if they usually keep charging and cutting and charging and cutting. With lack of better terms, if you remember the riders in the last battle with Mat in Knife of Dreams. Where Tomanas leads the people on the horses to cut of the Taraboners and Amadicians who wants to kill Tuon. First they use their horsebow, then they engage in melee with the Taraboners/amadicians who turns to face them. Thats how i look at Aiel. The positive sides that being on horseback, can easily be neglected while running on your feet, since after all you got alot easier maneuvering. And compared to any man on horse, u can pretty much always fast hide behind Terrain, i doubt a charging horseman will suddenly start using his bow if he has one in full speed. There is also the chance it could turn into a matador vs bull fight lol.

Aiel doesnt stand in tight formations, unless its tactical favourable to them

Aiel doesnt have cities to defend, maybe their hold, but thats back in the waste and well... im pretty sure the only thing they care about there is the fields of food anyway and the lifestock.

Aiel arent idiots, especially their leaders arent idiots they will abuse their positive attributes. If they got an army sent after them, rather than facing them on a open field, i bet they will use tactics. Its more to war than those few hours where you might both meat each other in full force.

Ambushing, hit and running, killing of supplies etc etc.

After a point, ca middle of book 6, the Aiel are somewhat toned down, or the others (Younglings, Sanchean, TRB (Tow Rivers Bowmen, ect) are beefed up to be on their level.

Either that, or your Point of Views starts to mature, get more experienced and maybe get more responsibility? Pretty much the only person who got experience with Aiel before the end of book 3 is Lan anyway, and maybe some of the Shienar. That far we pretty much only had POV from the farm boys or the wondergirls.

And not only the POV get more experienced, the whole wetlands gets more experienced. The Aiel is still something new, and the few people who might have served in the Aiel war, over all i think its rather few when combining all the countries, is nowadays proberly very old. They arent used fighting them. Actually, they arent used fighting anything as advanced as the fights with Aiel becomes, the few that does happen is pretty much only with shaido anyway once Couladin is dead. And the Couladin fight was pretty much only Aiel vs Aiel.

Ex: Gawyn spotting an Aiel hiding in a bush before Dumais, Younglings cutting their way out of the fight, Sanchean at least giving the Shaido Aiel a fight, the Malden fight, the Tearians(?) outpacing the Aiel towards Illian, ect.

Dont quite remember the Tear highlords outpacing the Aiel to Illian, but i doubt that was a good thing.

The Seanchan is extremly experienced fighters, and they arent even that many yet. Not Seanchan people that is. Yet they manage what they do. And they use the power as a weapon, which the Shaido are very unused of doing + the Seanchan is yet to encounter a wise one who can channel before the Perrin meeting.

The Seanchan soldiers is far from the defenders of the stone soldiers, or any other soldiers except the borderlanders really. As said they are extremly well drilled, and they pretty much got the same disciplin as the Aiel warriors. Combining that with trained damane, some who been a weapon for hundreds of years and flying beasts as scouts, they are extremly potent. Honestly if they had brought over abit more soldiers, and Rand hadnt created the Ashamans, i doubt the Wetlands would had been able to stand a chance. Even with people like Ituralde and Mat. They conquer extremly fast.

 

 

 

 

Also i still dont agree about the Superhuman powers, thats why im argueing and trying to make my point. Im happy someone brought up a few more examples, but im not beating at them with my own arguements denying them all, just for the sake of it(regardless if my own arguements against them are good or not) Im replying to them because i dont agree, and well since noone brought up anything new to change my mind i keep disagreeing >.<

About the (quote](/quote] all the time, im not trying to turn into a Mr Ares. Im rather fresh to these forums, and alot of my replies are rather badly written and often poorly organized when i try to explain myself. And i dont always agree with Ares on the posts ive seen this far in this forum. But i agree on this particular matter, in my own way of spamming replys and argueing.

Napolean lost to russia because russia used the same tactic they have always used. Abusing their big country and huge number of citizens, burning up all fields and supplies in the enemys path and wearing em out.

Snow or no snow isnt interesting, the only place it really does snow is apparently in the borderlands. The Aiel war centered mainly around Tear/Carhien and then at the end Tar Valon.

About the cold air, im pretty sure Aiel is used to it in ways because of their cold nights in the waste, but yeah maybe they are unused to deep snow or frozen lakes/rivers(which they proberly love).

Regardless, the snow shouldnt have affected them alot in the Aiel wars, at least not in the beginning since they were mainly in the south east, not until they reach Tar Valon, which is still south of any borderland.

 

The simple fact is that when you have the most disciplined, best led, best trained troops, you have a huge advantage. They are better able to co-ordinate offensives, they have a huge mobility advantage, yet you dismiss all of that. And they're not afraid of death. That is a huge advantage in a battle. It doesn't matter if you kill a lot of them, as they can use that sacrifice to gain an advantage that will defeat you. At the Battle of Cairhien, there was little co-ordination between forces - the Tairen's were quite willing to run off and leave the Cairhienin horse and the pikes behind. When Mat took charge, he brought about a series of victories in each engagement by co-ordinating horse and pikes. Usually, this was not done. They'd just rush off to defeat the saavages, and thus get defeated in detail. So the Aiel are not superhuman, they are simply possessed of many advantages that they use to the fullest, and when the opposition makes good use of what they have to cancel out the Aiel advantages, and make suse of their own, they do so to devastating effect and prove victorious. There is no need for magical explanations. Just read the books properly. They are not superhuman.

Remember that the Carhien and Tarien wasnt numerous at all. They were just a few thousand, no other wetlanders participated in the battle outside the walls, except the few who stormed out of the gate and was killed. With proper leading Mat indeed managed to defeat the Aiel, often when the Aiel was even in greater numbers than his forces without to much casulties. Then again he had battleluck, but he didnt in turn have any really reliable scouts like he gets later with the red hand, so he had negative problems aswell. While the Aiel on the other hand always have extremly good scouts, and they can move extremly fast in such terrain.

Didnt Mat manage to kill off Couladin and his group of Aiel, yet they were bigger than his.

Again Mili, stop avoiding it and give examples from the books where the Aiel are superhuman. You havent given a SINGLE example yet. You just keep rambling on about cavalry beating that and that, making assumptions and statements without explaining them. Stop going offtopic please.

This is another aspect of the Aiel that is utterly unbelievable. Humans fear death.

Not all of them. It is perfectly believable. And it can be a huge advantage. And while the Aiel can be broken, it will take more than an unplanned cavalry charge to do it.

Just look at the germanic people who fought the Romans. Im not comparing their discipline or fighting skills with the Aiel, but they two was in ways fearless.

 

 

A few points.

1) The Aiel have never actually been "caught in the open" by anyone.  As multiple people have pointed out, they employ scouts and wear camouflage.  They also move very fast for a very long time.  They are both aware of their surroundings and very hard to track down.

2) Mr Ares just provided an example of the Aiel standing up to cavalry and the tactics they used.

3) The Aiel do not fear death.  If cavalry charged them, they would take the losses necessary to break the charge.

3.5) The Aiel would maybe fear cavalry if the cavalry were used effectively, but they aren't.  Like I said before, Rand's POVs during battle scenes makes it pretty clear that many of the Cairhienin and Tairen officers simply want to throw their cavalry at the enemy without even stopping to consider the circumstances.

4) If a couple of farmboys can train for less than a year and be better than the majority of the wetlander fighters, than I think the Aiel - who are in peak physical condition and trained in martial arts practically from birth -  have the right to scoff at wetlander martial abilities

 

 

 

1)But if you're never prepared to fight in the open than you arent really an invasion, you're just a group of bandits. What are you going to achieve running and hiding all the time?

 

2)The fact that it happened in the books doesnt mean it is plausible in real life. Loose foot against cavalry is a massacre, every time. There is no tactic that will allow light infantry equipped for skirmishing to defeat, or even not get slaughtered by, heavy cavalry, once they have closed.

 

3)This is another aspect of the Aiel that is utterly unbelievable. Humans fear death. Even Spartan soldiers surrendered during the Peloponnesian  war. And they were routed at Leuktra. The fact that the Spartans never experienced a route in so long was more testament to their ability to win than their courage in the face of defeat. Everyone can be broken. While there are examples like Thermopylae where men fought to the death, they had time to prepare for this, even the bravest are scared of sudden terrors and being massacred by a sudden cavalry charge will send ANYONE running.

 

3.5)When your opponent has nothing on the field but light infantry throwing your cavalry at them is an effective tactic. All you need is a clear shot at them and you can charge to victory, they have nothing to withstand you. If they had some, any sort of deterrent it would be different. But there's just nothing there with the staying power to hold. They're all just flimsy, juicy targets. As I've said, troops like the Aiel were always cavalry's preferred target, even before stirrups, mail armour, or lances. They were the paper to your scissors.

 

4)The farmboys are magic.

1. What you going to achieve? Everything. Its called tactics and you really seem to be lost somewhere, there is nothing called fair in war. YOU still havent answered what parts of the books you think Aiel is superhuman, and you keep talking about invasions when, if u had read the books, forexample the Aiel war never was thought of as a war for the Aiel, only the wetlands called it that, they even said themselves that it was a war they had won, not the Aiel, it was just a punishment expedition meant to kill the king who cut down Avendosora.

Again and again, you repeat your arguements, and they got no bearing when it comes to the books. You are trying to argue, giving examples on how cavalry beats Infantery, when its not even interested unless you come up a scene from the books where Jordan did a mistake, a ilogical mistake. This is about the books. Its about the people Aiel, the people Jordan created, and you dont even use all the information that is in the books.

Let me tell you my new hypotes:

Infantery is better than Cavalry. This is why:

A army of cavalery stands at the bottom of a hill in a green lanscape with trees and bushes and grass all aroung, and they are facing infantery with bows and spears and bucklers. The infantery wins. So obviously, Infantery > Cavalery, there is no denying.

Or a squadron of cavalry rides towards a group of Infantery in high grass, suddenly all aroung them people stands up all around and starts raining spears and arrows on them and their horse.

Or a mass of cavalry charges forward a mass of Aiel. Once they are done with their charge and have cut a path into the ranks of the Aiel, they prepare to retreat to resemble and do another charge, but suddenly they are cut of on both flanks by groups of running Aiel, with little room and aiel all around them, stabbing at horses and riders, raining arrows on the easy targets high up in the air above everyone else and spears. Cutting horses in the legs, hulking and avoiding the immobile riders tries to hit them etc. Finally they manage to turn their horse around and cut a path back, question is who lost the most in the end and losing a trained war horse is just as bad as losing a trained soldier.

But to be serious, the kind of open warfare you are talking about anyway doesnt exist anymore. Pretty much any army worth mentioning nowadays will have their share of channelers, and open fight on open fields is extremly easy meet. If i would be a soldier i would personally much rather have some kind of cover when i fight others, if the conditions is that a lighting bolt can strike at me anytime if im out in the open, or not close to a channeler with a shield up. In those cases, stealthyness and guerilla tactics works wonders.

2. For one, this forum is about the books, at least this general discussion part.

  For another, what exactly are u basing the "There is no tactic that will allow light infantry equipped for skirmishing to defeat, or even not get slaughtered by, heavy cavalry, once they have closed." Whats the logics behind it. Explain it instead of just saying it. What if i would tell you that "There is no tactic that will allow light infantry equipped for skirmishing to NOT defeat, or even not slaughter heavy cavalry, once they have closed."  Can i say this? would i get as much credability as you, without explaining anything? Is this a good arguement?

And again back to the books, when there is battles the battle area is generally very well described and you pretty much get all the information on how both sides look. And then at the end you usually get the information who wins. Now which of these countless fights in the book seems illogical? And it should be illogical out of a perspective that this is a book. Im not saying that 5 man beating 5000 should be allowed. But be it serious movies or books or even history, there is still alot of bad odds victories, so not to harsh.

3 Aiel does surrender, just look at the Aiel that has become gaishan from the shadio, to Seanchan. But usually they dont surrender, except to other Aiel because of Ji e Toh. Ji e Toh is everything to them. And they got no respect for wetlanders in that regard, they would NEVER become gaishan to a wetlander, and thats their way of surrendering. So its part of the reason why i think Aiel would fight to the bitter end if they were surrounded, but im sure they would escape if possible. Another reason would be that they truelly are believers in Ji e Toh, and they keep repeating life is a dream etc. In regards they are extremly similar to the wolfs, and i dont mean that because of the "dream", but because the wolfs can go to any measure to kill shadowspawn, and some kind of stubborness is proberly in the Aiel aswell.

I dont think Aiel would ever break vs a charge, it wouldnt be honourable, it would mean that he would let the rest of his commrads down. And he would loose alot of ji or toh(cant remember which is what). So yes i think at least that Aiel would stand for a avalanche of charging cavalry, and they would do everything in their power to break that avalanche or outsmart it.

Besides just look at the maidens that follows Rand, thats proof how the Aiel warriors think and acts. I got no idea if Aiel Civilians are as strong in their beliefs though.

3.5 Now thats how weiramon would think, charge at any given time on infantery. Im not saying that to insult you, but i think its ignorant to say that all there is to it is charge. Its too simplified. Its like saying that all there is to archers, is shoot. Or for infantery men to kill.

4. Again, the farmboys are far from magic. They are far from the best fighers in the world.

  Rand first of all, might have mastered the blademastery to some extent at the end of KOD, but he almost died numerous times before. The Seanchan highlord almost killed him, before he did a unexpected move, sheathing the sword(sorry cant remember if thats the correct sentence, read the books in english only once and once in swedish, and listened to em 2 times in audio >.<). Same thing with Belal in the stone of tear, Moraine saved him that time with balefire. Then the Myrdraal in the stone of tear, who almost killed him. And at last the highlord Toran i think, in the forest next to Carhien who was alot more skilled than Rand. Rand might have mastered the sword rather fast, with the help of his travel companion Lan(he have after all spent alot of time with the man, like some months in the eye of the world, a few months before the great hunt, and proberly alot of time after falme and then in tear/the waste up until Moraine dies. So he have had great tutoring, and he already knew the void and the flame from his father before he started training.

Perrin, i think he plays alot more on his strength than finess. Lan did help him practise with the Axe he took with him from Emonds field, but i dunno how good Perrin actually is. For example the fight with Aram in KOD, feels abit unreal, feels like Aram should had been able to kill Perrin rather quick, using a sword. A hammer and a knife isnt the best defense against a sword(at least thats what i think, but then again ive never carried a knife bigger than a penknife/kitchen knife anyway :)) Perrin feels more like a berserk, and we really havent had that many fights where he have had to proove his skills, compared to the other 2. Feels like the wheel kinda protects all the boys from getting into to much trouble.

Mat, well obviously he knows how to use a quaterstaff, and have practised that with his father abit i guess. Dunno if he got any knowledge with other weapons, besides throwing knifes. But he did get alot of knowledge passed down into his head how to use his spear. I dont really think his luck got anything to do with his skills though. His luck doesnt work that way, as said his works favours him in situations where he is left out completly to the destiny, like when he fell from the roof in tar valon, or when the high lord tried to sneak up and stab him in the stone of tear when he was rescueing the girls.

 

 

Rand, Lan, Galad, etc. are the books superheroes and they can do anything because of it.  My problem with the Aiel (its only a little one) is that they all seem to be superheroes, with no average or below average fighters, all just Rand/Lan quality.  A little silly, buT I guess you have to have willing suspension of disbelief.

 

I'm gone for a week and leaving the thread.

Not really mate, the only Aiel that proberly are at the standards of Rand/Lan etc is proberly some of the best of the best fighthers and maybe people like Rhuarc and other clan chiefs. One thing most Aiel proberly are though, is that they are better runners/climbers etc, can take/withstand harsher treatment. Then again both Rand and Lan have lived very very hard lifes, so they are proberly not far away, but im sure there is Aiel, who after all been living a certain way all their life, that is stronger than Lan/Rand. Lan/Rand are still soft wetlanders in away, even if Lan trained from birth, i think there is harder Aiel warriors out there, who would win in a duel though, i cant say.

What the Aiel are though, is that they are alot better trained than the average wetlander. ALOT. When an Aiel takes up the spear, i can bet that they get responsibilities, they need to be even harder and more skilled than the normal "civilians" that lives in the Clans. Its a job for them, and the job is a active one where they need to stay at the top, they arent like the defenders of the stone who just guards a big forttress doing nothing.

So no, i think the average Aiel has had alot better training than the average wetlander. And i think the Average "best/skilled" Aiel, has had better training and is better than the average "best/skilled" wetlander. Id say its like comparing kids who practise for sports. Say that a normal kid in europe or america might get interested in a sport like for example gymnastics, and practise a few times in the week, and then maybe becoming Proffessional and start practising abit more. While a kid in China would train 7 days aweek many hours. Nothing says that the kid from China will become better, training isnt talent after all, but the average kid from China will proberly be better since they are foced to train alot more.

Kinda said it before now, but i think you have missunderstood or forgotten parts of the book Mili.

About the Aiel wars, there is alot of info in the books about them. 4 clans went over the mountains i think, and it happened fast like it always is with Aiel. This is a world where the only means of communication would be by pidgeon or couriers, and that would still take along time to reach the right ears and i bet the Aiel was proberly even at the doorsteps of Carhien before they even thought about sending for help.

Once they burnt down Carhien they moved on, after the king who had fled? which eventually led them to the tar valon area. The war had proberly been going on for months before the so called "union army"(think they call it covenant or something, but english isnt my first language) came into being. And that army was never that extremly big. I think i remember reading somewhere that it was abit over 200k altogther, which the Aiel proberly easily outnumbered? 4 clans? And after reading the Lan Chapter in New Spring it seems that it rather was alot of skrimishers between that army, and Aiel groups that was looking for Laman that kept occurring, not huge battlefields with hundreds of thousands facing each other. Once Laman was dead, the Aiel returned to the waste.

The rest of the battles with the Aiel has never shown any scenario that you would like to see. Im betting you want to see a scenario where lets say 100k wetlanders face 100k Aiel on a open field. Because then you could either get proof that the Aiel is extremly powerful, or you could get proof how good cavalry is. Nothing like this have happened though, i still dont get what parts you think is so overpowered about the Aiel. Asked it many times now, and well im not here to join the majority in this thread who disagree with you, but since this thread is supposed to be a discussion, im just argueing that no such event have occured in the books where the Aiel make out to be what you personlly think they are.

Anyway, outside of all the arguements. I still aint sure i buy this whole Cavalry > Aiel on open ground. At least not unless the Cavalry is trained. And i wouldnt call Aiel infantery, they are extremly adaptable to situations which their different weapons show and are in no way slow.

Someone like a roman with a big shield and a shortsword, id call infantery. But someone who's whole being is about movement, reflexs etc, i wouldnt call infantery. They can use their bows... They can throw one of their numerous spears or just use it... And as a last resort use their knifes or their martial arts. And they got a shield that is excellent and light enough to parry with.

Honestly, thinking myself into a scenario where i was carrying a sword and was facing an aiel, id be abit scared. Not only could they possible trap my sword with their shield and stab at me, they could also at any given time throw it and unless i 2 would use a shield(which proberly would hurt my sword and which i havent seen yet anyone really do in the books) i would have a very hard time deflecting a spear throw so up close.

Mat doesnt have supernatural powers, hes just lucky. Luck doesnt increase his skill with weapons, its not like hes doing completly random moves with his arms while having his eyes closed and jumping around on one leg in a circle, killing and hitting anything that comes in his way. For example:

1Dice

2Cards

3Stones

As regards channeling. Jordan makes up the rules for channeling. It is a fantasy element applied to the humans who inhabit the world and that is made clear. Right from the start we are told that the humans in this world can channel, that is how it works. The Aiel masquerade as normal humans when they clearly are superhuman, and it is only the Aiel. Everybody else is just a normal human. If in the context of WoT we say a human is the same as real world channel plus the ability to channel, then we still need another name for the Aiel who surpass them in every way.

 

 

 

Still dont get what you think is superhuman about them. What part of the books, dont make up battles that havent occured. Give examples. I dont agree with the Gaul/Perrin example, that fight is no biggie, might not even come top 15 when it comes to bad odds fights that has been described in the books. A few examples would be:

Galad vs riot people before Elayne and Nynanvea reach Salidar, he stands in the middle of the group of 30ish or so(with no help from Uno and the rest) and just kill anyone who reach for him.

Another is Mat vs 8 or so men in the hell chapter in KOD, they are all carrying swords and the likes, he is only carrying a knife.(and mats luck got nothing to do with it. Sure he gets lucky when it matters, when its random, except the dice and the likes, stuff like when he and a assasin fell from a roof in tar valon and he lands on the guy who cushions his fall etc.

As far as ive understood from the books, Gaul is between 25-30 + years old(really not sure, i know hes alot older than the farm boys at least). He lived as a warrior his whole life, and he might be the next to become clan chief of the Goshien and as far as ive read in the books, he never show that hes unskilled in anyway.

Just give an example or some examples of where the Aiel people is superhuman compared to Wetlanders.

Man you really are ignorant of the books. You should try rereading them. The situation isnt as you describe. IT wasnt like that during the aiel wars, and it isnt like that now when the Aiel returned to the wetlands. This thread started with you thinking Aiel were superhuman, instead it now has turned into some kind of discussion between what kind of real life history type of armsmen win vs who. The situation isnt like that. The book, all the battles, described to you throughly and i still think you are very ignorant, dont change the subject. You still havent explained WHY the Aiel is superhuman, they have done nothing that goes against all logics in the books really. They are just a hard people, a trained people, a people that goes after a certain way of thinking(ji e toh) which makes them alot more dangerous.

Stop talking about ancient battles in Europe or the likes because this thread isnt about this right?, focus on the books, thats the equation you need to look at, what kind of people the Aiel are. And what kind of battles has been, and who had what position, and who got the upper hand, the reason behind that etc etc

Aiel dont have great experience fighting wetlanders, some do have experience because of Laman, but normally all their wars has been between the clans. Im sure they will evolve. The clan chief will analyze for sure and adapt/counter.

Wetlanders dont have any great experience fighting Aiel, some do have experience because of Laman, but normally their wars have been between other wetlands - or even against peasants/armies of robbers. And Shadowspawn. They will proberly evolve if they got to face Aiel, people like Mat will make sure of it.

But the last battle is coming. We arent talking centuries of fighting, we are talking a very small time spawn. Everything is happening at once.

They have one, easily countered, style of warrior and that is it. They have nothing that could plausibly stand up to a charge from heavy cavalry.

Stop that really, they are not one kind of warriors. They are extremly adaptable. They got more than one spear. A bow. Knifes. Shields(regardless if its wood or steel, it will still stop an arrow or a sword), im really not sure why a iron/steel shield would be better, at least not for the aiel.

They a can run extremly fast and long, not only because of their clothes, but because of the way they have lived, where they have lived and how they have trained. They obviously know some kind of martial arts and are proberly extremly flexible when it comes to close combat.

When it comes to real life history different armsmen vs other armsmen, i got no opinion really who wins. And while its interesting, i dont really care about it. Since we are talking about the books, and i got no battle in the books yet that i disagree with. And the knowledge i got is from remembering details from the books, common sense, logics and whatever ive gotten from real life thro history/novels/movies/tv and the likes.

AND you cant really fully compare Aiel to anything that happened in our history. Their society and way of leading/organizing/fighting/thinking etc is unique. In a whole other world, compared to us.

Another kinda special point. What do you think would have happened if people from South america or central america back in the Inka days, meet Europeans before they stopped using bows etc. Thats how i see Aiel vs Wetlands. Because of the breaking of the world, EVERYONE started at 0 once again, and neither Aiel or wetlanders got guns(tho they will proberly get there soon because of Mat/Alruda + Rands Schools). Aiel got just as advanced society as the Wetlands. No big differences at all. They are just as advanced imo and lets toy with the idea that the Wetlands would be in war with teh Aiel for lets say 50 years, and noone wins. Im sure the wetlands will have just as experienced soldiers by then, or alot earlier.

This thread is all about stubbornes.

What exactly doesnt you get when it comes to wetlander armies. Reread the book and you will see how many trained armsmen usually were around, except in the borderlands.

Soldiers in the wetlands was doing other things when it wasnt war, feeding their family/farming/crafting etc. Unless they were acting as bodyguards or defenders of citywalls/gates etc.

Soldiers in the Aiel clans, were divided into societies and they were only soldiers. All the water carrying/farming/cleaning/washing or w/e for the soldiers were made by Gaishain. The soldiers only had one duty, to defend their sept/clan etc and the fact that prisoners of other clans became gaishan, servants, made it possible to keep a much bigger number of soldiers AND alot less of them died and could become soldiers once again once 1 year and a day had passed.

Wetlands nations isnt always one. Just look at Carhien, where you could proberly find people planning at anytime to gain power, without caring for the country itself. Internal struggle to a whole other level compared to Aiel, not even the shaido is close because they seem to still follow certain rules.

While the Aiel on the other hand got a whole other way of thinking. Which makes their goals much more clearer, their leadership more focused and their society more open.

Wetlanders uses horses the most time when going somewhere, they live in a land that gives them alot easier access to water etc.

Aiel never uses horses ever. Child, Women, Man, Blacksmith or w/e all go by foot, or run. Their whole life this has been the case. Now this is really without facts, but i bet that alot of the indians that lived in America back in the days would completly beat any of nowadays running sportsmen. Comparing a person from a background(family) who maybe never had any big athletic people, who suddenly at a early age starts going to the local club and starts practising running 7 days a week, to someone who comes from a family who done the same for along time and lived his whole life with walking/running forced onto him from birth, is kinda silly. I would bet alot of money that the best runners from the village who got it in them genetic, could beat any other runner who just happened to like to run as a sport and started go to a school and become good. And im certain that the average people from the village, would be far far better than the average "wetlander".

When did the Jen Aiel enter the waste? abit after the breaking right? Thats alot of years of walking and running. You could proberly compare aiel and wetlanders, like how they compare horses from different bloodstocks in the books. Horses from Andor, from Tear, from Arad Doman(razors) etc. Its not SUPERHUMAN POWERS to be able to be faster/stronger/more endurant compared to people who lived a whole other way.

The Gaul/Perring vs Whitecloaks, why wouldnt they be able to fight off some whitecloaks? What exactly does it mean to be a whitecloak anyway, you start seeing darkfriends everywhere so you decide to join the order, you ride around the world intimidating and killing innocent people. Who said you'd become a extremly skilled soldier. Besides, odds like 2 vs 10, or even 20 isnt that unusuall in books. Just look at Mat armed with 1 knife, vs 8 people or so in KOD(the chapter about a hell with Tuon). Or especially Galad vs riot people in that city before Nyn and Elayne reach Salidar.

And another thing about the Aiel genetics, i bet that they are gonna become as they say "alot" softer if they stay in the wetlands, they are still humans and i think any kind of "human race" so to say, would get favourable genetics if they did like the Aiel, lived the way they did. Actually i read the prophecy like this. The only Aiel that will still be Aiel after the last battle will be the Shaido, who returned. The other clans will adapt into the Wetlands and become something, not the old kind of Aiel.

was gonna write alot more and reread what i wrote and give a try on organizing it but i just cba since its a idiotic arguement, though the whole Cavalry vs Infantry debatte is just silly. I dont know how it is really, but im sure Jordan knew enough. And im sure that NOONE in this forum ever got any real life experience with old school cavalry vs infantry, its not enough to play Age of Empire, or Empire Earth. And even if all the information that you need is in books and papers etc, i doubt there is alot of people on these forums who studied as much as Jordan.

My personal opinion after reading the books is that the Aiel had great weapons, great tactics and alot of experience. They were also extremly skilled. Usually its like comparing one of the last battles in KOD, where Mat faces 11k or so horseman, with less men, and barely loosing any men. What would you think would happen if he had to fight those 11k horsemen in some other way, with them closing or attacking on another spot. Its all about planning/tactics and the training of your soldiers. And the reason why Aiel is often superior vs Wetlanders, is because they are able to stealth/ambush/choose battlefields/counter tactics etc alot better than wetlanders. And because they are better trained soldiers.

First of all, remember the fighting before Carhien and the fighting we get from Lans POV in one of the early chapters of "New Spring". This isnt two big armies, standing on one side of the field each. I doubt that kind of fighting ever occurr except between arrogant, stupid and traditional noblesmen. Anyway, what i mean is that aiel doesnt seem to run around in great numbers, sure a few thousands, but its never really that many more. Remember Couladins force was like 8k.

Also we have NEVER really seen any fighting with the Aiel in the books, or heard, where they travel in one huge group. We could maybe have had one, with the army Rand collected on the fields before Illidan, but that never happened.

Aiel are stealthy if they want and if there is possibilities to be.

Aiel are bowmen if needed(they all carry a bow)

Aiel got a great physic, not saying they are all like our present sport stars, but have you ever heard about a fat Aiel? As an example, like the one made about the stone of tear before. Do you think normal people could redo the assult that they did? climbing into the stone of tear, its just a measure of fit they really are. They pretty much do what we nowadays call "training"(like running, or walking long, or practising fighting if they are warriors(like Rhuarc does with Rand all the time) everyday, many times. Without really calling it training.

Say compare someone who has practised climbing for 4 years, with someone who barely ever have, how huge will the difference be? Or say running far etc.

Aiel is a oneman army, im not saying they are that good, but that they are thinking from another perspective. Ji e toh, clan responsibilities, community etc. All of them arent intelligent or good leaders etc im sure, but they all seem to be thinking independent if needed. Proberly the lack of nobles etc have created this, the lack of unquestionable leadership. Proberly most of the Aiel soldiers could take their commanders role, at least to make their own decisions.

They are like one of those Schwiezic Knifes. And since they dont fight in great great numbers, on open field, standing shoulder to shoulder, they can adapt.

Dont think they are inhuman, in anything but the sheer number of proffessional fighters they have, dont think this have anything to do with "race" or anything. And the part about blacksmiths etc taking up spears and fighting along side their warriors if needed. I dont compare that with a farmer taking up a pitchfork really. I would proberly rather compare that with the expertise of someone who been a soldier for a year or 2, at least thats my impression... The battle culture is so big, that its porberly impossible to not pick up abit of weapon/battle knowledge.

If 500 trained wetlander soldiers and 500 trained aiel warriors(all aiel warriors are very good trained, compared to the wetlands armies, where most soldiers arent trained very good at all) would face each other on some kind of battleroyal on a isolated island, im sure it could go either way.

One last thing, i think what makes it possible for Aiel to have so many, and so good warriors, is because of the ji e toh system, where they have Gaishain. Having a servant for 1 year and a day, who you only have to feed, saves up alot of time that maybe else would go to something else(not that Aiel seems to be training all the time. But they proberly Train/relax) To make a comparison between our own history and that. Just look at the karolines from Sweden. The idea there was that the soldiers lived in houses around the country, and each soldier had a group of farmers who(apart of taxes i guess or something) had the responsibility to feed him. One of the reason why a small nation like Sweden managed to beat alot lot bigger nations back in those days.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_XII#Early_campaigns