Moneybrother - Blow Him Back Into My Arms

;D dunno why i mentioned it, just remembered the song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI0cJll9wdM

Listening(lyssnar) on your playlist now Maj, not sure its all my type of music but its kinda chill this far. Dunno why but the song im listening to right now makes me think of an old game where madonnas "mmmm mmmm " song(cant remember the name) was played, some kind of adventure game.

Anyone who could give me their thoughts on how the Aiel economy is, and what money/things actually mean for an Aiel? That is, what i mean, do they like wetlanders try and build bigger and bigger palaces than their competors, or get more and more land, or lifestock etc etc. What kind of philosophy does they have when it comes to greed. Is it rather a greed to become the perfect Aiel? the perfect follower of Ji e toh and a person who is a good warrior/smith/farmer or w/e. Is reputation everything, or does it like usuall all come down to power and wealth?

Might be abit unecessary to write all that out, but anyway. My impression of the Aiel is that they are more a enity than the wetlanders. And they dont have the same mentality as wetlanders, or us. You cant call them communists ofc, but they seem in my opinion to be a community that actually work as a group instead of a individual. Thats why i dont think we have seen starving/poor/begging Aiel. Not sure how to continue here, but another example.

Say a country has a high rate of unemployed people who does nothing. If those people instead had gotten the chance to cooperate and work for a unselfish goal, doing different jobs that they can manage, im sure everyone would have it alot better, which im comparing to the Aiel. Everyone seems to be cooperating, doing their duties in the clans.

So erm(lol) thats why i think the communities in the waste works. Why people dont starve to death etc and how a people like the Aiel can stay strong and actually increase in numbers.

About the genetics, thats what happens when a disciplined "people" pretty much only marry inside their people and have existed long long before the breaking it seems as servants to the old AOL AS. Then later are forced to pretty much walk for years and years in thousands to the waste where the weak dies and the tough survives. Become some kind of Bodyguards, and then warrior clans. I say, if anything thats a pretty good ground to stand on if you want to have the genes to become a strong warrior.

wont mention the cavalry cavalry vs infantery... or nvm.

Jordan not having explained in depth how the threshold lands look like and where the Aiel get their food, except plantation/livestock etc that we have seen, doesnt make Aiel superhuman.

And i still say that Cavalery isnt as effective as you keep spamming it is. And Aiel isnt the kind of soldier that you keep trying to niech them into being and that most other things surrounding the Aiel are explained throughly in the books.

Its not some arguement Mili... Its a fact.

And its explained in the books. The Aiel themselves is the "people of the dragon", just look at the flashbacks from Rhuidian. They moved from the halls of servants, whereever that was, and inhabitanted the waste and then evolved during 3k years.

The Attila the huns army was mainly horse archers, you dont find any similarities at all with the Aiel?

The Mongols used cavalry extensively, comparisons with them are inappropriate.

Thats very narrow minded said. Obviously nothing written in this thread has made any impact yet on what kind of soldier the Aiel are, im so tired of this thread...

Oh and say a spring or a well could possible give water to ALOT AND ALOT of people. For drinking.

A pond on the other hand only got so much water...

Your just pulling numbers right now  ;D and well i got no idea how life in the Aiel waste is. We cant just Assume all the time. The only thing we actually know for certain is that water is very spare. Pretty much the only water they have is a few oases so to say, and a few springs coming from mountains etc as far as we have been told. Thats pure water. Then its supposedly possible to get water from plants etc.

About how they feed themselves we hardly know. One thing we do know tho is that one of the kind of livestock that they are using are those sheep/goats that was close to that house in the waste that was filled with blood. Those sheeps/goats actually didnt need any water, they got enough from the plants they ate. So at least they dont need to give water to them. Maybe there is more convinient livestock/plants throughout the waste. One thing that is certain at least is that its not a sand desert with no plants at all. Sure some parts might be pure desert, but the lands are big and obviously there is life, even extremly sparse small trees.

As said its not really touched that much how they feed themselves, even though its said that there is planted terraces in place like cold rock holds(i think they were growing tomatoes or something right?:) so long ago my last reread now :P) But who knows, maybe the wise ones got some trick.

And as said, your kinda pulling of numbers when you say that that and that is needed to feed that and that many. But yeah its really hard to argue about stuff like this since there is barely any information except what is written in the book and the map, which shows pretty much nothing except that the waste is really big, takes months and months to get across it apparently if we look at how far away the clans was to the meeting place.

 

World class athletes... well dunno this is extremly hard to compare really. This whole thread has been filled with our world vs the wheel of time world, but one thing you at least should have to do if you compare something, is comparing it with how it was in the middle ages in our time. You cant compare how it is today. If Humans are supposed to be Humans unless said differently, you cant compare to Humans in the 2000th century. Besides who is to say that we havent grown soft? what if there was better marathon runners, even if they didnt compete, say 1000 years ago? Todays world is very very comfortable. And well erm, thats not only the west world. Ofc there is people still starving to death sadly, but there is abig difference again. I doubt a beggar in a city is that good at running and generally since say thousand years ago, until today - the world have really gotten more comfortable for everyone, or at least the old way of living of the lands is pretty much extinguished, be you poor or rich.

 

Actually, the nutrion in our food has grown alot worse as time as gone ^^ Just compare vegtebales, meat etc etc. There is alot of stuff out there that actually have gone for the worse, and dont let me argue for that because i wont be able to answer properly, im sure with just a little searching you can find reports on that exact subject.

About the slaves etc... well dont know tbh. I mean im not really certain what kind of balance it needs to be between how many warriors you can have and how many civilians/gaishain you need. But fact remains that they get Gai shain. And the waste isnt a small place, its actually HUGE if you look at the map. And also, as i said big parts seems to be very similar to the african savannahs. brb taking dog out.

If anything that would work for my case and against yours. Humans have been growing larger recently because of the superabundance of food that we now have available. We are wealthy enough that people can afford to dedicate their lives to pursuits that do not produce anything useful, such as being athletes. I haven't brought this up so far because I think it would be incredibly anal to gripe about logistics but there is absolutely no way that nomads living in a desert could afford to train and fight their whole lives, absolutely no way. The Spartans just about managed this by enslaving basically the entire population of southern Greece so that they could devote themselves to war and have the helots produce all their food. Even with this their population dwindled, and the Spartan homoioi were overwhelmingly outnumbered by their helot slaves leading to frequent rebellions.

 

Besides which, harsh environments like the waste produce tough, hardy people. That is not the same as physically perfect specimens. Growing big and strong is not a result of hardship but of plenty.

 

But as I aid I dont really mind any of this, I can suspend my disbelief and not get too annoyed about the logistical impossibility of a 250,000 strong army coming out of a barren wasteland. It's just every time the Aiel show up and there's a fight I'm like;  ''oh god'' *roll eyes* ''here we go again, time to hear how the Aiel own all and how much better in every conceivable way they are than everyone else''

I disagree with Militiades's original arguement and generally am against his opinion on the Aiel. However, his point about the Aiel's fitness/muscularity is a very valid one.

 

But then again, this kind of inconsistency is present through the whole series, not just with the Aiel. Perrin for example is described as having thick slabs of muscle on his chest..You won't work your chest swinging a hammer on a forge. Also, he seems to go almost the whole series eating very little, you'd lose the muscle you had without consuming a good amount of protein/calories each day. This is also a valid point against the muscularity of the Aielmen. They seem to scrounge what they can and never lose muscle (that we hear/know of)despite the huge distances that they run.

 

Now I'm not criticising Jordan at all here, this is a fantasy book. It would suck a lot if everything was as mundane as it is in our world. How lame would it be if Gaul took 5 from his battle against the WCs to down a protein shake and some chicken? This is a fantasy work, and the Aiel are slightly unbelievable as people in our world, as are the trollocs, fades, warders etc.

 

Stop judging people in the book by the standards of our world and enjoy it.

Must.... Defend.... the Aiel...

argh

"The Aiel however, are bigger, stronger, faster, tougher and have better endurance than anyone else. They're all as tall as Rand, as stacked as Perrin, can run at the level of world class athletes, and do all this on the sustenance they receive from a barren desert.

Bigger, that depends what you mean exactly, if we are talking muscles and we are strictly speaking Aiel warriors, then yes naturally someone who has been training his whole life to become a Aiel warrior will be very fit indeed.

Stronger, im taking em one by one even if that sentence maybe not need to be taken exactly literally. Anyway its never stated that Aiel are stronger than the average wetlanders, generally though once again Aiel warrior have trained for ages so it should once again be rather natural that they are strong, they are after all warriors. You dont train to become a warrior by following a diet and losing kilos, or sitting reading books all day.

Faster, dunno if they are faster, once again ive never made the whole "faster than a horse arguement", if anything the fact that Perrin/Faile/Loial got so far ahead of Gaul/Chiad and Bain should pretty much crush that thought, if someone still has it. One thing everyone who have read the books does know though, is that Aiel and especially Aiel warriors never ride, and they always use their feet. And they travel by running/trotting whenever they need to get somewhere and just the fact that they have successfully traveled like this in the waste for thousands of years, yes literally since a hundred years or so after the breaking, should mean that they are pretty endured. Another thing drawing a line to all these africans we got who do so good in running sports, isnt the Waste abit over sealevel? at least it feels that way when you look at maps, but who knows.

Tougher Dont think Aiel is any tougher than wetlanders. A experienced Aiel warrior, which all of them actually is, is proberly alot more tougher than some farm boy with a sword or a noble in fine silks riding on his horse though, but i doubt they are any tougher compared to say Uno and his gang, unless this is something that is unique for the Aiel. Remember? Embrace the pain(hint, Egwene in the tower)

Endurance, well running/walking pretty much everyday, training as a soldier etc etc(Aiel warriors, once again, dont do chores, they got Gaishain) Should give quite some endurance indeed. Im sure i would be pretty endurant if i trained like them everyday from very early age. Especially if i had their genetics.

Tall Well the Aiel is tall, just like the average Carhienar is short... Those Carhienars are really op tbh. Or why not the Asians.

As musculus as Perrin, tbh im not sure how big Perrin actually is. True we keep getting descriptions of how much practise he gotten from his years as a apprentice, his what 3-5 years? no idea how long he stayed with the Luhans. But once again nowhere in the book its stated that all Aiel are like that. Besides, if you should find big as in muscles people anywhere in the WOT world, id say the Aiel waste is proberly a great place to start looking. Because of the huge amount of trained soldiers, and the way they train.

World class athletes... well dunno this is extremly hard to compare really. This whole thread has been filled with our world vs the wheel of time world, but one thing you at least should have to do if you compare something, is comparing it with how it was in the middle ages in our time. You cant compare how it is today. If Humans are supposed to be Humans unless said differently, you cant compare to Humans in the 2000th century. Besides who is to say that we havent grown soft? what if there was better marathon runners, even if they didnt compete, say 1000 years ago? Todays world is very very comfortable. And well erm, thats not only the west world. Ofc there is people still starving to death sadly, but there is abig difference again. I doubt a beggar in a city is that good at running and generally since say thousand years ago, until today - the world have really gotten more comfortable for everyone, or at least the old way of living of the lands is pretty much extinguished, be you poor or rich.

Aiel isnt just one type of soldier. As said many times, they got a big arsenal and they are mobility themselves.

Im not sure what im supposed to picture in my mind, Aiel caught by suprise by a stealthy heavy cavalery charge in the middle of a open field, preferably a valley with heavy cavelry racing down upon them?

Now your an muscle expert suddenly?

really go look at lets say a swimmer, i bet he can beat you on running anytime aswell. Or say a boxer, or some other martial arts.

Todays stereotype for a marathon runner is a skinny kenyan. What makes them run fast? the altitude they live on? genetics. You dont need to be small as a stick to be able to run long, and once again its not about the extremes. Who cares if Aiel can run faster than a horse, i certainly dont, the fact that is presented in the books is that they can can run long and keep a rather high pace. Say, do you remember when Perrin leaves from Tear to go to the ways and the two rivers? How he, Faile and Loial gallops ahead and the Aiel gets behind. Thats the kind of running im talking about, and they are also slowly catching up because if Faile/Perrin and Loial would keep galloping like that with their horses they would die, they will sooner or later pretty much be forced to step off and lead the animals or let them rest. Fast and steady.

btw aiel in snow :)

number 6, Thats what game of houses, noble systems etc brings in a way :) Oh and ofc having a house of your own instead of a tent. Then again the Aiel get treasures through the fifth, and they got craftsmen etc and farmers who isnt warriors, but i keep getting the feeling that they are a very free people when it comes to possessions.

What i mean to say, they are proberly as smart as the wetlands, they just got different values and different ways of living. Besides they seem alot more compact, compared to lets say a farmer in andor who almost never go anywhere, the clans somehow... dunno.

7... well dont really know how the waste looks like exactly. I mean ive gotten the feeling that the whole place isnt a desert.. i mean just think about the first time Egwene saw Amys, she was hunting some deer or something and there was a lion nearby? There is no lions in the desert, that much i know. So my gut feelings tell me that the Threshold lands is made up of sand desert and dry african savhannas. But again, i dont know:P About if they are close to 1 million people... again got no idea how big of a country this place actually is. Remember how long it would take for the furthest clan to reach that place where Rand was to meet them all, once again i forget the name. And that place was after all somewhere in the middle of the threshold lands right?

9. This shouldnt be apart of the arguement really, not the superhuman arguement. But i dont know :) i mean at least im pleased with how we have been informed about this throughout the books, it makes sense to me. Its the way of the Aiel.

ill say one thing more tho, swimming forexample is a great way to train. You dont only train your condition(really not sure whats the correct word for that in english) but you also your whole body. So is Martial arts, or lets say icescating, dancing, gymnastics etc.

Im no expert when it comes to food and training. But i bet if you live the life of an Aiel, not goin soft, and you dont starve(which i dont think they do) you should have no problems keeping muscles, but im pretty sure they dont have the kind of muscles people nowadays who take anabola/goes to the gym often has. Short ones i think its called. They got long ones, which takes alot more of training.

havent read your whole post yet, just commented on the marathon runner, the picture of him. Once i get home ill read it. What i meant with the marathon runner comment was just that because the top runners in the world nowadays looks like that and pretty much comes from africa, doesnt mean that Aiel should look like that. Then again i guess this touches the superhuman field better than anything else in this thread this far, if Aiel is both good runners and strong. But as my bad example about the wood cutting lol, if hard training in all sorts of form is apart of your life, you will eventually grow. What i was comparing was "training"(actually living as an Aiel, but i keep using training) a whole day until you go to bed, compared to people who go to the gym and pushes some heavy weights a few times(going to the gym is pretty much about this in my opinion, you exhaust yourself with wieghts, something you wouldnt be able to do for 12 hours a day, not the same level of weights. It also means that when you train that way, you wont be able to train that kind of muscle for a day or two, if you dont wanna hurt yourself. The Aiel on the other way got running/trotting or walking as big parts of their life and weapon training and martial arts and fighting in battles. Its a constant strain i bet, but their bodies are used to it.

.

Aiel arent what we nowadays call marathon runners. They are just very good runners with as said before in teh read, extremly long training(even before they were born by the ancestors). And as said, its really not interesting how far a Aiel can run or how fast. What matters is that they practised it their whole life, amongst other training like martial arts  or weapon training or w/e. Compared to any other army they are mobility itself.

And about Marathon runners. Those guys seems to have shaved off whatever they can to become better at running for a long time, it doesnt mean thats the most effective way. Life today is alot more comfortable than it used to be in our own world forexample. I mean who knows. Me myself i would proberly value life long hard training because you Have to, compared to training that you do because you want to become better. Just compare to yourself. A person who say, erm, is chopping wood with an axe his whole life or a guy who goes to the gym once a day for an hour or two. But nvm, as said this doesnt really matter when it comes to the Aiel, they have run their whole life and trained, so they should those advantages on the field, even if they cant outrun a horse(why they'd need to be able to do that i still dont understand, all they need is a certain speed to be able to regroup fast enough)

Stop the arguements about running faster than horses. It doesnt mean shit(just like most of the arguements about Aiel in this thread). Its not even interesting. What matters is that Aiel can run, and they can run fast, faster than any other army on foot(other armys pretty much walk, while Aiel run). Its enough to move large parts of their armies into favourable positons, cutting off escape or coming up on the sides.

Militades, your really are completly ignorant of the books and the Aiel is obviously superhuman, because you say so.

 

I didn't mean Gaul was not an exceptional fighter, I meant not for an Aiel. Never is he hailed as being one of the Aiel's great heroes, it seems he's just the run of the mill Aiel (which means he's roughly as good as the 5 or 10 best fighters in the entire wetlands). My point was that all the Aiel seem able to do things like that, it just isnt a big deal.

Thing is, Aiel doesnt seem to gossip that much who of them is the greatest warriors. Or well at least we dont get to take part of that gossip, in ways the Aiel seems very hard to impress, and even when u have impressed them, forexample Mat/Rand/Lan they still dont bow in awe because of u, they just note u and maybe respect you abit more, but thats all. We dont really get to know who is the greatest fighers amongs the Aiel.

Correction really... since you assume they are superhumnanherogods.

If Gaul isnt a exceptional fighter, name me one. You got anything to prove that he isnt a good fighter. Everything ive seen from him in the books this far have been very good, he seems very reliable and would proberly fit right in amongst the clan chiefs like one wise ones seems to want him to later.

Why would Gaul run away? Hes not stupid, he knew what was coming. There is a big difference between running away because of fear, or running away because its smarter. Maybe if he had known that the whitecloaks was incoming, he would had run away if he had a chance, but why would he run away when they were almost upon him? he would had just died, compared to staying and fighting.

WOT is in one aspect not like all the other books. You got so many POV and still its not only the "heroes" who are able to fight or are the best etc.

About running Aiel and horse, at least ive never talked about Aiel running faster than horses. What ive talked about at least, is that Aiel isnt a stationary Infantery, they are on the move all the time. And no they dont need to run 22 miles per hour or however much that translated into km/h. I doubt sending in heavy cavalry on Aiel will be enough to win, they wont just stand and let themselves be cut down. Especially not in tight formations as far as my memory serves from the books.

Besides tell me where all these hundreds of thousands of heavy cavalry is in the books, sure the Shienar seems to be using cavalry and a few other nations like Ghealdan etc, but its abit far stretch to base your whole arguement on why Aiel are overpowered, on the fact that they dont use any horse compared to the wetlanders.

As to the comparison with the Swedish Guards, the Defenders of the Stone are referred to as Tear's elite fighting force - their standing army so to speak (much like the Companions in Illian - where Tam got his training, and he seems to be a very capable soldier).

Re: The Stone of Tear

As many people pointed out, the Stone was taken in the middle of the night, when the defenders were not even expecting a battle.  Instead of breaking down the gates and attempting to flood into the Stone by force of numbers, the Aiel climbed above the preliminary defenses and quite literally caught the Defenders with their pants down.  Also note that Rand's description of the Stone is that it is designed to hold every single corridor and stairwell against an enemy attempting to take it from the ground up, but it says nothing about stopping a small force of elite warriors who enter from the top.  I think in this case the smaller number and greater agility of the Aiel gave them an easy victory, because they were able to move quickly from room to room, corridor to corridor, before defenses were in place.

and and and... wait for it

NO CAVALERY! :)

Also that scenario would imply that if you had 100 men fighting 100 other men, and they are all trained as well. You will end up with almost everyone dead <.< Instead the generals leads their troups and ultimately when it comes to greater numbers, depending on how they deploy their forces and what kind of advantages they have, decides big parts of the fight.