Brown Ajah

Brown Ajah: 9

White Ajah: 5

Yellow Ajah: 4

Gray Ajah: 2

Blue Ajah: 2

Red Ajah: 2

Green Ajah: 1

Rasheta Ardashir had 12 for Green Ajah. That seems to be a record among the posters in the thread.

Your missing one of the main people of off the women list: Moraine. Min said that without her Rand is doomed to fail.

Two Rivers would probably have been a great place before the series started. I don't know which place fits the criteria after the start of the series - maybe Two Rivers then too?

Prophesy/viewings are probably to do with this particular turning of the Wheel. Whatever might have been prophecy during other turnings is unknown, I think. If Rand was turned 13/13, then I don't know what would happen.

But what, in your opinion would happen if Rand was killed in chapter 1 of aMoL the state of the world being how it was left at the end of ToM. It is made pretty clear that no one else can seal the bore or IMO seems that way to me.

Your idea about the horn is interesting, but, throws up more questions like, would Rand be able to be summoned by the horn if balefired?

The world is on the brink the DO is growing stronger. I know people think he cannot break free completely without Rand to free him, but really would it matter if he was not completely free? The world surely cannot take much more of his influence. And if the DR was killed this turning, who and how would he be resealed, before the age of Legends comes again? Would someone else seal him? Would Rand be born again in the next age? And if so what if he is killed in that one too and the next and so on?

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Vroman's Bookstore, LA 17 November 2009 - Robert Moreau reporting

Q: Rand is bonded to four people. If one of them was to die, what would be the effect on him? [something about the 'Warder rage' not being as bad because of the multiple bonds.]

A: We know that immediate bonding to someone else helps with the ‘Warder rage’ – it doesn’t completely get rid of it. I would say that your instincts are right, that it would help. I don’t think that it would negate everything.

Barnes and Noble chat 11 November 1997

Brandon from Mission Viejo: Mr. Jordan, it's fairly common knowledge that the Dark One was bound by the Creator outside of the Pattern at the moment of creation. Would it then be safe to assume, after concepts brought to light in the new release, that the world before the opening of the prison never knew true evil? If so, then was each Age before the opening of the Age of Legends different facets of some utopia? As well, without major conflict between good and evil, what caused ages to pass? Thanks.

RJ: Given that time is cyclic, you must assume that there is a time when the prison that holds the Dark One is whole and unbroken. There is a time when a hole is drilled into that prison and it is thus open to that degree. And there is a time when the opening has been patched in a makeshift manner. But following this line, the cyclic nature of time means that we have at some time in the future inevitably a whole and unbroken prison again. Unless, of course, the Dark One breaks free, in which case all bets are off—kick over the table and run for the window.

Yes, we do know the Wheel isn't already shattered. (It would be a world destroying event, by the way.)

For instance:

DragonCon 5 September 2005 - Tamyrlin reporting

Question Part 1: In the Wheel of Time there is focus on events occurring again and again throughout history. Is it just history which is circular, or is it time itself which is in a loop?

Jordan: If you think of history being in a loop, then time must be in a loop. The Greeks were the first, as far as we know, to think of time being linear which allows for change. Almost every other culture prior to them had believed in circular time. If time is a wheel there is no possibility of change. Whatever I change now, whatever injustices I correct, the wheel will inevitably return, the inequities will return, there is no possibility for change, therefore there is not impetus to change. So time and history are in a loop in this world, a large enough loop . . . that it is really quite immense.

Question Part 2: So, the sun will never go nova, will never die?

Jordan: In this universe, no.

Has it ever been stated who Elyas was/is bonded to?

Encyclopaedia WoT has a section with characters.

An elderly man who is a Wolfbrother. He was once a Warder to Rina.

http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/

Air & Water are both strong among females. So strength in those are common among most women.

If it had been 3 men with different lifting capacities, then it might have been more uncertain. Since one of them could be really weak and one could be really (unusually) strong.

Egwene can lift more than 4 women. Siuan can lift almost 3 times her own weight. Adeleas can lift 2 women.

New Spring, chapter 3:

Holding two weaves at once was more than twice as taxing as one, three more than twice as wearing as two. Beyond that, difficult no longer sufficed as a description, though it could be done.

I'd say that Adeleas is close to the median of Aes Sedai strength, Siuan used to be around 50 percent stronger than median AS strength, and Egwene is stronger than twice the median of AS strength.

Powerlifting:

(my own lifting capacity approximations)

0.8-1.0 Siuan lifted = limit to become Aes Sedai

1.2 Siuan lifted = weaker Siuan

2.0 Siuan lifted = median of Aes Sedai strength

3.0 Siuan lifted = stronger Siuan

4.5 Siuan lifted = Egwene

around 7 Siuan lifted = Nynaeve

around 9 Siuan lifted = Lanfear at her peak

Adeleas can lift 2 women 2 stories up. So she can lift one man (2 women weighs more than 1 man).

Making a useable Gateway requires it being big enough for you to fit through without any problems. So she might be able to make one smaller than needed. Horses or other stuff would need even bigger sizes.

I believe that the weaves to lift something are simple, but require a deceptively large amount of strength.

So Egwene is more than 2-3 times Adeleas strength? I don't think so. I think it's according to the expected strength (directly proportional to strength). So that if you're 2.2 times stronger, then you can lift approximately 2.2 times as much.

"Deceptively large amount of strength" could mean that more power has to be put into lifting somehing than the force you can get out of less precise manipulations. Like stirring up wind or Hardened air or protective shields (out of Air, mostly).

I don't disagree on that. I'd say honor  attained is honor attained.

But toh has to be met. You can't lead others if you're currently doing useless labor. Or whatever it is they happen to be doing to meet their particular toh.

Yeah, Amys probably has been very busy doing honorable deeds. As the Aiel sees them.

During time when toh is met ("payed for", or whatever it should be called), then maybe they "step down" temporarily. Letting others fill in for them. When toh is met, then it is as if the thing they did had never happened. Maybe that's a part of the explanation as well?

...

The Knitting Circle found it strange, to say the least, that women as young as Elayne and Nynaeve gave orders to the other Aes Sedai and were obeyed. Aviendha herself found it peculiar; how could strength in the Power, something you were born with as surely as your eyes, weigh more heavily than  the honor that years could bring? Yet the older Aes Sedai did obey, and for the Kinswomen, that was enough.

...

 

(Amys and Sorilea are old and have accumulated much honor.)

I think Avi said something about channeling just being something you're born with. So she kind of shrugged her shoulders at it. I think they have the same attitude toward Talents like Dreamwalking. Although I can't recall it being explicitly said by anyone.

Maybe not "leaders". But there might still be some kind of pecking order. I think the one with most accumulated honor could convince others better.

(Sorilea probably has lots of ji.)

I searched "honor bring" on ideal seek. http://dposey.no-ip.com/IdealSeek/

The Path of Daggers

Chapter 1

weigh more heavily than the honor that years could bring

Aviendha thinks about how Aes Sedai determine pecking order. Apparantly honor that years can bring determines such things among the Wise Ones.

How do the wise ones choose who leads? is it just whoever is the best leader or is there something else going on?

Egwene mentions in aCoS that she hasn't figured out how they do it... but Egwene and all AS seem so blind sometimes that maybe choosing a leader based on her leadership qualities is so confusing for them they can't figure it out.

 

Obviously the wise ones don't choose based on ability in the one power.... any thoughts? has this been figured out already?

The honor that only the years can bring. If I remember correctly.

From encyclopaedia WoT:

Sahra Covenry POV - Sahra Covenry is working on Mistress Moira Elward's farm. An Aes Sedai approaches and asks her about Elmindreda. Sahra says she remembers nothing, then she is wracked with pain. She says Elmindreda spoke to Gawyn, but that was all. When the Aes Sedai leaves, there is no one alive.8

 

Notes

...

...

Sahra's Black Ajah assailant is never identified. The most popular candidate is Alviarin but there is no direct evidence of the killer's identity.

I assume the person had the ageless look. I can't remember.

You're both right. Holding someone shielded takes less than shielding someone who already embraces the source. It's also true that different gender shielding is different from same gender shielding.

Shielding Talents as well as skill in actually shielding someone can also make a difference. Talaan was weaker than Nynaeve, but seemed more skilled at it. At least after she'd had some practice. (Nynaeve probably isn't one of those with much skill & dexterity.)

Lol, yes you should have. You've stated all the places where I disagree with you in that, so that's cool--but again I have to ask what is your basis of stating Adeleas is at the median strength? Do you have information about the distribution of Aes Sedai strengths that I do not?

I've given the quote, and done the math. Both your (incorrect) version, and my own. We have the same information. I'm the only one to have done any math.

By your direction, we are to believe that Adeleas is on Level 6. The Aes Sedai strata runs from Level 4 to Level 12. Why, precisely, do you suggest that the median is Level 6?

I don't want to repeat myself about these "levels". Their numbers are of no interest to me. I am talking about strength, not levels.

The rest of what argument? And what does it say? I see nothing in what Linda and Dominic have put together that sustains that Level 6 is the median point of Aes Sedai strength.

I've not said that they've claimed it was the median point. I said that they named it "average strength". I have, on the other hand, explained why it's roughly the median of Aes Sedai strength.

One is honest disagreement, the other blind refusal to listen. You see?

The extent of your criticism is "you're wrong". That seems like... "blind refusal". Btw, if there is any difference between expected strength and actual strength among the Aes Sedai, then it would be speaking against your arguments. Because any bad recruitment methods could only result in a slightly higher average than the "expected" one. (But you've also said that there's no difference between sparkers and learner, which I don't think).

I did warn you. You shot yourself in the foot involve the 13th Depository.

??? You say such peculiar things. I don't know what you're talking about.

Shall I then repost the argument from the Brandon's Confusions about Cyndane's Strength thread, then? You can show us how your math addresses issues other than the distributions?

I don't know what argument you're talking about, or what it has to do with anything I've said in this thread. Feel free to post whatever you wish.

First of all, I'm not into the "level" part of the argument. I'm more interested in the real One Power strength. Secondly, what are you talking about? "How about incongruity with the whole strength in the power vs. weight liftable." What are you talking about?

The levels are based on strength in the One Power--you do realise that, right? That's what this is. A chart of comparative strengths in the One Power. The Levels are levels of strength in the One Power.

One level is stronger than another, yes. They've named some levels "Average strength". I do not care about numbered levels. I just care about the strength. Don't get me wrong, their article is a good one, but I still don't care about numbers on any levels. I've said this many times before.

As for the second, you've implied through this whole thread that a certain level of strength results in a certain amount of weight one can lift. That idea is directly proved impossible by this list--which you brought out.

No, you've said that several times already. Where do you get such an idea? Numbers on any levels in any list/lists does not say anything about any strength. You have not proved anything with those numbered levels. The numbers aren't interesting at all. It's the listing that's interesting. The levels could mean anything, so they are meaningless. Strength is what matters, and that is what that article is about.

Forget the numbered levels. Strength is the important part.

 

Umm... the numbered levels are numbering levels of strength.

Quit talking about the levels already. We're talking about strength, not levels. The numbered levels are just an aid to the ones that wrote the article, and for those who read it. Nothing more than that.

Of course it's matched! Twice the strength means they can lift twice as much. Egwene isn't 4 times the strength of Adeleas, she's roughly 2-2.5 times the strength of Adeleas. Since she can lift that much more.

I direct you to the above. Siuan at strength level 5 can't lift Bryne, who is a small man. Adeleas at strength level 6 can lift two women. That's near to twice what Siuan can lift despite only a slight increase in strength. Yet Siuan at her old strength level of 12 can only lift three women. So--a dramatic increase from strength level five to six, followed by only a minor increase from there.

Quit talking about the levels already. We're talking about strength, not levels. The numbered levels are just an aid to the ones that wrote the article, and for those who read it. Nothing more than that.

What was it you asked me? Any reason for my problems with the ideas about strength in the power equaling amounts that one can lift... yeah--served.

???   ???   ???  Where? I've seen nothing yet!

You think the weakest Aes Sedai is 37.5 percent of Lanfear's strength, right? Let's pretend that Adeleas is 38 percent of Lanfear's strength (I'm just pretending, I don't believe in any of this). If Egwene is 4 times that, then Egwene is 1.52 times stronger than Lanfear!

 

Haha. Nice bolding. Am I to take it then that you think this a particularily great point?

 

I reiterate, it is clear that strength in the power does not exactly (or even closely) relate to how much one can or cannot lift. That there was so great a difference between Adeleas and Siuan(new), and so minor a difference between Adeleas and Siuan(old) proves this. So indeed, whilst Egwene may lift twice what Adeleas can (not for four times... Adeleas lifted two, Egwene four) that doesn't mean Egwene is twice (or four times) Adeleas' strength.

 

Thought, that being said, it is likely that Egwene is indeed around twice Adeleas strength. Maybe slightly less.

Yeah, it's one of the many good points. You've claimed that Adeleas is weaker than average, being able to lift 2 women while Siuan used to be a lot stronger than average. Very, very few are stronger nowadays among the female Aes Sedai - only 1 out of roughly 200 of all potential channelers, meaning 0.79 out of 1.00 in a symmetric curve such as the one you've argued for. Taking into account that there were at least 100 000 female Aes Sedai during AoL. Had there been 500 million female Aes Sedai, Siuan's strength would be 0.72 out of 1.00. Siuan could lift 3 times her own weight. So it takes a huge difference in strength for a woman to be able to lift 1.3333 times as much as Siuan used to be able to. Egwene can lift more than 1.3333 times as much as old Siuan. Exponential increase in strength for every extra weight lifted would definately land Egwene stronger than Lanfear, and that's absolutely not the real case. Another proof against your arguments.

Nope. I still reckon based on RJ's comments that the distribution of strength amongst all channelers is symmetrical. I was talking here only about the strata of Aes Sedai strength, which due to their shoddy recruitment practices does not represent a reliable sample of the population.

I should have known.  :) The Aes Sedai strength is such that 37.5 percent of all channelers were too weak to qualify. Then there's sparkers versus learners, but you say there is no difference in strength between them. I, on the other hand, believe that sparkers often are stronger (still, no guarantee). Sparkers are extremely rare, so that won't have any impact that makes any difference. All gentled men during the past 300 years wouldn't be as many as there are Aes Sedai today. Then we have the female sparkers that either die, or become wilders. They didn't take in wilders older than 18 years old, remember? In short, the biggest impact is the 37.5 percent limit. I took that into account. Either way, Adeleas is at the median of Aes Sedai strength.

And as I said, how the heck do you know the average Aes Sedai strength? You certainly arn't going off the middle. You state that the average Aes Sedai sits on the third level of a nine tier system--on what basis?

It's not my levels. It was 13:th depository's. The number of the levels don't say much, it's the rest of the argument that does say something. Either way, Adeleas is at the median of Aes Sedai strength.

Well, yeah, given the Aes Sedai only range between level 4 and level 12, its a safe bet that their mean has nothing to do with Lanfear's strength at level 21.

I'm not into the "level" thing.

Firstly, your math was about the symmetricality of the distribution of strength amongst women who can channel--which I maintain, as I did then, that RJ's comment proves wrong. His comment sustains an equal distribution. Your math was never wrong, your premise was. 2 + 2 may well equal 4, but how is that relevent when you have 4 and 7?

What on earth are you talking about? I've discussed whether the curves were symmetrical, but that's not what I've talked about especially in this thread. I assumed the curves were symmetrical, just as you said. I also used several other of your ideas. Then I did the math, which gave the result that Siuan did indeed lose more than 2/3 of her original strength - completely according to your ideas. But you said that she didn't lose more than 1/2 of her strength. So you're wrong. Very, very wrong. (As it happens, about more than 1 thing.)

And save us a repost--if you didn't convince me after--what, 10, 15 pages?--you'll not do so here. Besides, its unnecessary--I can make the argument about Siuan and Leane's strength without reference to the distribution--remember, I did so in the Brandon's Confusions About Cyndane Strength thread on the tGS board. I can do so again if you wish?

:D

That reads amusingly close to "Na Ni Na Ni Na--I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!".

No, of course that's not what I was talking about. I talked about your ideas that I used, and proved wrong - with math that time (not the quote from LoC, To Heal Again). You meant that it was "regaining two thirds of what they lost", and not "Healed up to two thirds of what they were". That, combined with your claim that Siuan wasn't less than half her original strength. That was what I talked about.

If you say so.

Correct, and I do.  ;)

That being said I have problems with your assumptions about how strength in the power exactly equates to weight lifted--again, as you well know.

Why do you have that problem? Any particular reason?

Several, which I've explained in detail to you. But alright, within the context of this thread how bout incongruity with the whole strength in the power vs. weight liftable. You have Siuan on Level 5 and Adeleas on Level 6. Siuan's original strength was Level 12.

??? First of all, I'm not into the "level" part of the argument. I'm more interested in the real One Power strength. Secondly, what are you talking about? "How about incongruity with the whole strength in the power vs. weight liftable." What are you talking about?  ???

With that in mind, Siuan, on Level 12 can lift three women. Siuan on Level 5 can't lift one man (and a slight one). Adeleas, on Level 6 can lift two women. Begin to see the problem? Between Level 5 and Level 6 the ability to lift things nearly doubles, but then between Level 6 and Level 12 the ability to lift things only increases by a minor amount.

Forget the numbered levels. Strength is the important part.

How is this viable if strength and the amount one can lift is so exactly matched, as you suggest?

Of course it's matched! Twice the strength means they can lift twice as much. Egwene isn't 4 times the strength of Adeleas, she's roughly 2-2.5 times the strength of Adeleas. Since she can lift that much more.

You think the weakest Aes Sedai is 37.5 percent of Lanfear's strength, right? Let's pretend that Adeleas is 38 percent of Lanfear's strength (I'm just pretending, I don't believe in any of this). If Egwene is 4 times that, then Egwene is 1.52 times stronger than Lanfear!

That reads amusingly close to "Na Ni Na Ni Na--I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!".

:D Heh, I could say the same thing.

I'm not talking about average strength--we know aes Sedai strength is skewed, though not to what extent; establishing an average or median is impossible. I'm talking about middling strength. Linda and Dominic place Adeleas and Vandene on the third level of a nine level strata. Joline and Teslyn, being stronger than those two, could easily stand at the middle of the Aes Sedai strength distribution.

What? I can't believe it! After all this time, have you finally realized that the curves aren't symmetrical?  Oh, and as I said in my previous post, they placed them as average strength Aes Sedai.

I really don't see the worth in that toward your suggestion--nor do I see your basis that them being on level 6 makes them 'average' strength. How, precisely, do you know the average strength of Aes Sedai?

Have you realized that the mean isn't 50 percent of Lanfear's strength?

From 13:th Depository:

Leane is not as strong as she was, and neither is Siuan. Most women in Salidar can channel more than either of them, now. Even some of the Accepted can. Not even counting Elayne or Nynaeve. If Siuan and Leane were Healed to half or two thirds of their original strength, most Aes Sedai in Salidar would be as strong, and a good many stronger. Delana is much stronger than Siuan now, whereas before the margin had gone the other way.

- Lord of Chaos, To Heal Again

That's "Healed up to two thirds of what they were", not "regaining two thirds of what they lost".

 

Also, Luckers, have you forgotten that if you'd been right about "regaining two thirds of what they lost", then they would actually have lost more than 2/3 of their original strength? That's assuming we have a symmetric distribution, just like you've claimed. I've posted the proof before.

Had you been right, then median strength gives female AS (like Adeleas) an ability to lift roughly 2.16 Siuan.

Forgotten? Nightstrike, that you said it did not make it true. I recall your arguments. I agree with them now no more than I did then.

It's not a matter of whether I said it or not. It was your incorrect ideas and my correct math. I started with disregarding all evidence to the contrary, and used your ideas. Whether you disagree or not does not make my math any less correct. You were proven wrong. I could repost it, if you want.

Additionally--I am once again confused--if I was right then Adeleas would be able to do precisely what she did in LoC? Lift two women?

No, of course that's not what I was talking about. I talked about your ideas that I used, and proved wrong - with math that time (not the quote from LoC, To Heal Again). You meant that it was "regaining two thirds of what they lost", and not "Healed up to two thirds of what they were". That, combined with your claim that Siuan wasn't less than half her original strength. That was what I talked about.

That being said I have problems with your assumptions about how strength in the power exactly equates to weight lifted--again, as you well know.

Why do you have that problem? Any particular reason?

When does Adeleas lift two women?

It's mentioned in LoC, 52.

Also please don't go throwing around 'what we know' about Siuan and Leane. You are fully aware that your claims in reguards to them are subject to debate.

No, it's not up to debate. It's written in stone.

Either way the same-gender shielding thing solves the issue of Elayne's comment.

That, by itself, offers a possibly complete explanation that solves everything neatly for us. But we know more than Elayne's comment.

Linda and Dominic place Adeleas and Vandene on Level 6. They run the Aes Sedai strength range between Level 4 and Level 12 (ignoring Caddy as an outlier). That puts Vandene and and Adeleas on the third of a nine tier strength dispersal--and not anywhere near the middle (I'll not talk about averages, we a) don't know how skewed the Aes Sedai strength dispersion is, and b) its irrelevent to what we are discussing).

To Shielding, yes, it's irrelevant. But it's not irrelevant to your comment about Teslyn & Joline being middling. Linda & Dominic at "13:th Depository" place the ancient sisters at "average strength". They are around the median strength. Which is close to average of all Aes Sedai.  

Lifting (more than?) 4 women means that you are (at least) 1.333 the strength of the one lifting 3 women, and lifting 3 women means that you're 1.5 times the strength of the one lifting 2 women. Egwene is at least twice the strength of Adeleas & Vandene. They are of roughly median Aes Sedai strength.

From 13:th Depository:

This level also includes the Healed strengths of Siuan and Leane:

 

Leane is not as strong as she was, and neither is Siuan. Most women in Salidar can channel more than either of them, now. Even some of the Accepted can. Not even counting Elayne or Nynaeve. If Siuan and Leane were Healed to half or two thirds of their original strength, most Aes Sedai in Salidar would be as strong, and a good many stronger. Delana is much stronger than Siuan now, whereas before the margin had gone the other way.

- Lord of Chaos, To Heal Again

That's "Healed up to two thirds of what they were", not "regaining two thirds of what they lost".

Also, Luckers, have you forgotten that if you'd been right about "regaining two thirds of what they lost", then they would actually have lost more than 2/3 of their original strength? That's assuming we have a symmetric distribution, just like you've claimed. I've posted the proof before.

Had you been right, then median strength gives female AS (like Adeleas) an ability to lift roughly 2.16 Siuan.