I can see why RJ set things up the way he did, then how Sanderson wrapped it up. It just seemed RJ didn't know how he wanted to get there, and yeah, those chapters and that journey took way way longer than it really needed to.

Kind of in hindsight as far as how I'm almost finished with the books. None of the prophecy makes sense. I mean maybe, as you said, if they were using these tools, but then why wouldn't they have written it down? Then with Rands memories, he would have been the start of some of these prophecies, but doesn't know a different way to close the prison off the bat? Callendar (spelling?) being created, but no one thought of at the time for how it "needs" to be used, but created it anyway? It's just all covenant, and kind of plot armor in a way. Don't get me wrong, I still like the story, but as I've said before here a few times it just doesn't go that deep and it's best taken as a daily soap opera or something than a complete tight story.

Honestly though, this is something RJ does well in the books. I think it helps that we got to see Mat getting his prophecy and abilities, so we know what others may have got as far as answers. So I don't mind that part at all.

Well and it goes back to my rant or soapbox about it not really being a tight story with any deep background. RJ just seems to have a good idea, writes it in the story, and then sometimes we don't hear about it again or it is covered for somehow in a way. I don't mind it, but it does bring up interesting questions sometimes.

Well just the whole lack of urgency between she disappears, to when they finally gear up and go to rescue her. It seems years, at least to me, to the point where I don't know why or remember why Mat feels any connection with her. The character of Mat being Mat and not wanting to read that letter (and another one later iirc) is different.

It may have been explained in a later book too, but my take on it from that is this is kind of a mirror of the TEL dream world with somewhat the same rules. We also get to see a description of a similar terangereal type thing in later books, and it turns out (iirc) that it's something completely different and/or way more complex. So who knows what it is, if it's another whole world like TEL that others can be in, or if it's limited to the single person and whatever sceneros are given to them, or what. But no, not real. Also, don't they wash the person and tell them to forget what happened and don't tell anyone? So it'd make sense that it's not real, and not telling of the future or anything, it just is what it is for whatever test the person is going through.

That's as good of an answer as any. Kind of goes along with the "it's evil to go fully into TEL dream world" but never really explaining why - although that also came from Rand and his greater memories, so it's "older" than whatever with the columns.

Some of their story was pretty fun, or how they happened into eachother and then escaped. But yeah mostly agree. The letter didn't make sense to me, as well as when Moraine comes back. She had been gone for what seemed to be so long, without (at least to me) a sense of time of how long she was actually one, that her coming back and that letter just seemed out of place. I do get where RJ and BS were going with that, and I like the concept of Mat going back to get her and how he was setup for it. But, like a lot with this story, the timing and lack of urgency or a sense of time is way off. I mean, if I recall somewhat correctly, the last 3 books happen over a month or two with the 1 month deadline happening soon once the BS books start. So what you're reading can only be a handful of months away from the end, and RJ just never gives a sense of that.

In the last book I think, finally, that Brandon Sanderson got a hold of that concept. However, it would have made more sense tying it into "the old blood" and having some of the girls share that. It seems he wanted some concept for those who can't channel to have some kind of powers, or who would be re-woven into the weave at times. It just gets much with all that's going on.

I watched a lot of his talks and lectures online a few months ago. It was interesting getting his perspective as a very successful author, we're about the same age, and he seems pretty personable. Anyway, I think he basically said as much as far as it being about marketing. There is more to it as far as writing style and stuff, but if it's on the border it can go both ways. Which makes sense, authors, publishers, stores need to make money.

So I got to that part last night, started thinking about it, and I have some questions and thoughts. Why was it prohibited to go through a 2nd time? So this would have been a thing after the breaking of the world, and after the Aiel would have settled down there. I can't remember if the columns were what they were safekeeping in their exile, or if they were just there and then the city built around them, or if the whole thing was just there and the Aiel found it. Point being though they were in the service to the Aes Sedai before the bore hold and before the breaking, and I'm assuming at that point that the glass columns weren't a thing. So who did it twice and what was the story? I'm assuming they were already in exile, so it wouldn't have been seeing them go into the waste and living there. I don't think anything was eluded to in their past as far as any other large disaster. I'd assume then if it was just "you'd see your future" that it would just be a warning of just that, and not a blanket only go through once. I'd also assume, since if it was that disastrous, and came true, that there would have been legends about it passed down that would have turned into prophecy. Kind of like when the men go through it, they see a shared or similar vision of the past and can confirm it later. So I just don't know what the warning was about, why it would have been there, and what to think about what she saw. I do find it perplexing that she makes a comment or the book says "she is disappointed because she knew what she would see". Then she finds it more complex than she thought from touching it, and it showed her something she didn't expect or didn't want to see. Going through a 2nd time then also showed her something she didn't expect and didn't want to see. So maybe having a clear mind and not knowing what to expect is to then get what's expected? Dunno. It does have similarities with Nynaeve going through her test for the shawl, in that she was pretty powerful and knowledgeable at that point. It also gets back to Mat asking more questions than he should have, or even going back to the tower of Ghenje to rescue Moiraine. Then maybe it is the truth, and we're just seeing everything setup for the Seanchan to take over. But, that's depressing, and not the way everything else is being setup, and if that's the case why write the story in the perspectives we have. It's just a story, I don't care, but it's depressing. It also doesn't make sense, because the Aiel seemed to be pretty status quo once they settled in exile, and what could have been seen, and come true, to prohibit a 2nd trip. Then finally, although not a deep book spiritually there are some Biblical references here and there. Moses striking the rock a 2nd time had the consequence that none of them could see the promised land. Since this was in reference to the Messiah being pierced a single time, rather than twice. Moses screwed that up, and paid a price for it. So this whole thing could just be that, but it seemed more a warning than a command. Anyway, I'm sorry that's long, it was just an interesting question. Maybe it's simple, or maybe it's explained in the rest of this book or the next or the prequel. I didn't search for it, more in a writing mood this morning than reading, but if it's been answered before I'd be more than happy to read those threads.

Sorry to pop up again here, I'm at the disadvantage of not having read the complete series, and am going through the last few books now, and the prequel after that. I'm in Towers of Midnight just after the "battle" in TEL. Shortly after Perrin and Egwene meet, she basically has a battle of wits with a forsaken and ends up besting them. A few things were interesting from that battle and encounter. She realizes that she IS the White Tower and IS the Amyrlin, and then makes a comparison between what she is going through in TEL and the test for the shawl that she had been a part of but never did. I thought that was a great way to elevate her up, have her turn the corner, and really become what she had been saying she was. Still, maybe this could have come sooner, or she could have been written a little different so that there wouldn't be an opinion that she didn't earn anything or shouldn't be that connected. Also my comment about extending TV status to her and a few others stands, that would go along way to helping all of this. But, when Sanderson is on he is on, either with notes from RJ or not. Having Egwene go through that, is a time when he was on. At the same time, I still don't know why the story needed Slayer and the Wolf Dream hasn't really paid off, I get the encounter between Perrin and Egwene and that TEL is the same for everyone, but still Slayer is a bit much.

I was going to say he saved TV for those who couldn't channel, but then Rand is one... I thought originally, someone commented that he wanted MORE TV's from the Two Rivers, and was talked out of it. Maybe in re-doing that he then removed the girls from it. Because after what Mat and Perrin turn into, the girls should totally be included on that level, and actually more of them. But, he didn't, and we have what we have. I do wonder where RJ took his detour away from an urgent last battle. Because we spend a lot of time with her, as you said, with the Seanchan and with the Wise Ones. Some books read more as a manual to the world of dreams than anything else. Can't really do an immediate "last battle" if you want to go and explore other stuff. Anyway, there were some younger Amyrlins and we read that their history has been cherry picked a little to what regular rand and file Aes Sedai learn about or know. So maybe she isn't as unusual, and it is a political position with the reasons for choosing her explained. She and friends were away when the split happened. But yeah, her ownership seems a bit odd thinking back at it. Which is why she should fall under the TV umbrella, and then it would all make more sense.

I get what RJ was going for, even if it's a little cliche for a short story and doesn't fit in the longer story. We have these lost, "old blood" folks in the Two Rivers that have been found, and are destined to greatness in the greater world. The problem was RJ took way too long to get to the point, and as you said, it seems odd when you really sit down and think about it. On a similar note kind of. It's like when Nynaeve is finally raised to the shall. Looking back it's pretty petty, since she totally has the powers to have earned it, knows the weaves, and helped cleanse the male power. I get that they wanted the scene it eventually was, but it really didn't need to happen. I finally did like that use of TAR. It's a nice change from the book(s) learning about it, and then the book(s) of everyone taking a gateway everywhere... So it's nice to see one of RJ's ideas mature and be used pretty reasonably.

My bad, I thought it was the DO in the prolog and then in the first few books, I'll have to change that opinion now to Ishy. However, that doesn't really change much else. To me the general forsaken are kind of the counter to what gets setup with our main characters who can channel. The "good" has powerful members, so does the "bad". I get there was more squabbling between the forsaken (well and the good channelers too for that matter) but I think that was more for RJ to do more with them. Ishy destroying the whole pattern is a good thought. We see Rand tempted with this, and I have no reason to doubt he could have done that, before turning away and laughing - or however that went. So that's a good compare and contrast in characters. Although at that point why have a DO and or why have a good god figure that's not involved. I'd think the struggle, if the whole universe was at stake, would involve a supreme power that didn't want that to happen... Unless RJ was trying to setup the invisible hand that guides events in something like LOTR. Which is my suspicion, but he never really turns the corner on it and gets there. I should edit this quick and say that in reading about Ishy on some wot wiki it mentions that he finally thought the DO didn't change in each spinning and was destined to fail. This kind of reminds me of LOTR and the defeat of Morgoth. However there we seem to have a bit more lore and legends supporting who they were, the power they had, and why they were able to fall than in wot. So maybe that's what RJ was getting at, but still there is a lot going on.