16 hours ago, Stedding Tofu said:

 

So the Dragon's soul can be reborn many times but only becomes the Creator's Champion in specific circumstances?  Idk about that but I suppose it's possible, just not something ever touched on in series or explored.

 

I understand the inspiration behind Nakomi (some of it - as you say many cultures have some reference or analogue here) but the point is in the sole scene RJ wrote she is neither named, nor identified so it's moot.  Whatever his ideas or intentions he did not follow through.

 

Does it matter?  Not hugely but I was intrigued as to who / what she was on re-read.  Perhaps if he had had the chance to write LoTR style appendices or the equivalent of The Silmarillion he could have  developed and explained his idea here more but sadly he did not get that chance.  BS is doing his best with the notes available and it just doesn't click well for me.

 

 

I'm glad it works for you and others: to each, their own.

 

And, no, indeed, the same rules do not and cannot apply, nor are they intended to, I am merely exploring the consequences of the Jenn Aiel bearing avatars of The Creator and what that might mean.  Clearly this is not something touched on in series or any of the supporting works or interviews so those who think it fits together well might have considered these and many other questions.

 

 

Well, I imagine you screeched them down then.

 

 

This is subjective and you are welcome to your opinion: for me it's as if Iluvatar turned up at Minas Tirith or Mount Doom to give things a nudge in the right direction.  To repeat, the only insertion of "Nakomi" in story by RJ was of a mysterious, unnamed and unidentified woman who may have been Aiel at Shayol Ghul.  This character was introduced at the last minute of the last hour in the 14th of 14 books and in my view is simply not necessary.  BS saw the obvious problem with that so "decided" based on RJ's notes what she should be and to write her in earlier with some more clues to her identity. 

 

I think the story would work fine without Nakomi and don't think BS's attempt to explain her or at least hint at what she was worked particularly well, hence the clarification in Origins.  That's just my view and you are welcome to yours.  Have a nice day 🙂

The Creator has already showed up and “nudged” Rand in the past by speaking directly to him.  This is consistent with the level of involvement by Nakomi, which was very passive in nature, in the Shayol Ghul.  It’s perfectly consistent with what came before. 

37 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Absolutely what BS intended - he said it and wrote it.  But was it what RJ intended?

 

Your absolute statement that critics of the Creator's avatar have been proven wrong is still up for debate - both in that they made a good choice (subjective) and is it what RJ intended (possible, but not provable with available information).  The small minority you mention was wrong to eliminate all possibility that Nakomi was the Creator's avatar, but so is saying that she absolutely is - especially give that BS described her as 'kind of an avatar, but not quite'.

I see what you are saying, but since BS wrote it and his word is final when it comes to canon on that point, they have been proven wrong.  That is what I was referring to.  It was an open question as to what BS intended when AMOL was released, but it’s not a question anymore.  Brandon definitively answered it.  From a canonical perspective, there is no other answer 

10 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

So is it what he intended or no, you appear to be saying both...

It’s definitely what BS intended, if you take him at his word (I don’t see any reason not to)

36 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

No, I'm saying that you are reading BS's decision to create Nakomi as absolute gospel when I believe there is room for alternative explanations for what RJ may have been thinking.  I'm saying you may be right or you may be wrong.

While it may not be absolute gospel as to what RJ would have intended (although the weight of evidence certainly points in that direction), it is absolute gospel in terms of canon since BS was selected by RJ and Harriet to complete the series, and that is what he wrote and intended   

1 minute ago, DojoToad said:

Not when BS said that he decided and no one else on team Jordan knew anything about it.  But you draw you're own conclusions...

So you think BS is just lying when he says: “I decided that this woman was the Creator’s version of Shaidar Haran, something Jordan had explained a little in the notes” ?

Just now, DojoToad said:

It certainly wasn't explicit in RJ's notes.  In fact it states outright that there was 'a single line of instruction' in relation to Rand while leaving Shayol Ghul --- "An unknown woman says to Rand, 'Yes, that's good, that's what you need to do.'  She hurries off."  You and BS may have drawn a correct conclusion, but that is hardly definitive - especially to say something like: 'They have been proven wrong.'

I don’t think that’s true. We know that RJ specifically wrote that passage from AMOL, which included an unnamed mystery woman passively assisting Rand.  All indications is that is SEPARATE from what BS found “in the notes”, which he is saying relates to the idea of an avatar of the Creator.
 

in any event, if BS says this was the intent, it’s white definitive at this point   

10 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

According to 'Origins' BS decided to make Nakomi the opposite of Shaidar Haran.  Where in the 'Companion' did it say Nakomi was an avatar?  Not under her name...

Sorry, you’re correct that it was in Origins.  I misspoke when I referenced the Companion.

in Origins it says “I decided that this woman was the Creator’s version of Shaidar Haran, something Jordan had explained a little in the notes. A vessel, kind of an avatar, but not quite.”

so I read this as the idea of an avatar of the creator was in RJ’s notes.  Perhaps BS took the extra step of analogizing her to SH, but the avatar concept for her was explained in the notes 

9 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Have they been proven wrong?  BS decided to create Nakomi on his own based on a single line from RJ - which may or may not have been RJ's intention at all.  No one on Jordan's team had any idea what it was or what it meant, so BS made a decision.  You may be right, but there is nothing definitive to back you up - so you could also be wrong...

Unless BS is lying, based on the Companion the avatar idea did come from RJ.  

4 hours ago, Stedding Tofu said:

 

I thought he stated that the myrddraal talking to Bors / Carridin in the prologue to TGH/TDR(?) was not Shaidar Haran but an earlier version of him, Shaidar Haran v0.5 if you will.  I took that to mean he had the idea of the avatar quite early on but did not commit to it until LoC when Shaidar Haran is introduced and is made unambiguously different to other myrddraal (who do not have names).

 

The explanation being that the seals are weakening throughout the series but only after a certain number break does he seem able to project an avatar.

 

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Shaidar_Haran

 

 

If The Pattern is spitting out Champions every 1,000 years and these Champions are failing, does not The Dark One win?

 

More likely, they are like Logain or Hawkwing, men with ambition who, at least in Logain's case, can claim the mantle of prophecy in trying to remake the world as they wish.

 

This is the quote from the article that prompted this thread.  It's BS speaking

 

“I decided that this woman was the Creator’s version of Shaidar Haran, something Jordan had explained a little in the notes. A vessel, kind of an avatar, but not quite. Shaidar Haran for the Dark One, Nakomi for the Creator. But again, not actually the Creator. … As many have guessed, her birth is Jenn Aiel. Yes, they’re still around. A few of them. And providing the vessel who was the counterpart to Shaidar Haran was part of their purpose, lore, and identity. Nakomi (which is her birth name among them) is the latest in this line.”

-- “The Real World in the Wheel of Time,” Origins of the Wheel of Time

 

It still doesn't clearly address what RJ intended (we know he only wrote the Shayol Ghul scene, where Nakomi is unnamed, unidentified and unexplained) and how much BS "decided" then extrapolated based on his decision.

 

Take Rand's visions in Rhuidean both of Deindre's prophecy during the breaking that the Aiel still have a role to play - but she cannot foresee what - and her later prophecy of He who Comes with the Dawn.  Is this just misdirection to make us think that it's another sign that Rand is the Dragon Reborn and the purpose of the Aiel (The People of The Dragon) is to survive to ensure his birth and then to follow him in TG?  I mean that's well and good and very handy but it's not why the real Aiel - The Jenn - must be preserved, the real purpose being to produce avatars for The Creator.  But if that's the case, the Aiel who strayed from the path of the Jenn are as irrelevant or as "Lost" as the Tuatha'an - so why does Nakomi intercede with Aviendha?

 

Not to mention that Shaidar Haran is purely a vessel that crumbles to dust when the last seals are broken.  What of the Jenn Aiel?  BS has decided Nakomi is the latest in the line but is she just a regular person who received the holy spirit for a few minutes?  What would the status of an individual be who received the essence of God, if only briefly? Or is she a version of a God walking the earth (living among the Jenn) for millennia? Given the Aiel Waste is harsh and the clans contend over every water source how can they not know that the Jenn still exist and where they are?

 

I just don't think this fits together well.  The more it tries to be explained, the less satisfactory I find it.  I think RJ kept his touch light wisely, though the mysterious Shayol Ghul scene in isolation does intrigue or frustrate the reader.

I think for many of us, it fits together quite well, and the explanation has always made sense.  Just because Nakomi is somewhat of an analog to Shaidar Hagan doesn’t mean all the same exact rules need to apply to her.

it’s funny, I remember very spirited discussions on this forum years ago when AMOL came out, when a small minority screeched to the heavens that there was no way nakomi was an an avatar of the Creator.  They have been proven wrong, and RJ and BS made a good choice 

On 10/16/2022 at 9:13 AM, DojoToad said:

As 'bad' as the book ending was, the rest of the book was strong enough to carry us through to book two and a best-selling series.  For me, that was not the case with the show.  Very weak season culminated by a crappy finale.  S2 can still save the show but it needs to be way better.

This is exactly right . Comparing the ending of TEOTW to the last episode of season 1 of the show is absurd. The book makes FAR more sense and is easily justifiable.  
 

And yes, it is perfectly valid to criticize “professional” writers when they do a poor job, like they are doing here, just like a doctor should be criticized if they botch a procedure due to incompetence.  

Nakomi being an avatar of the Creator does not go against the premise of the series at all and doesn't cheapen the concept of the Wheel in any way.  The Creator speaking to Rand in both TEOTW and AMOL is very clear evidence of this.

If some people don't like the choice that RJ and BS made when it comes to Nakomi, that's their preregative, but it is fully consistent with what came before.  The authors knew what they were doing, and it makes total sense.