Actually the more likely reason was not the amount of Power drawn (far more saidin was used than saidar [an ant/mole hill next to a mountain]), or the strength of the channeler who used it (Nynaeve is cited as having sufficient strength, and the point you're referencing (Moghedien's comment) about the Choedan Kal being used at great strength for a long period of time is just as applicable to the male one--more so, because more Power was used). The most likely reason was the USE to which saidar was put.

 

 

Though really the simplest reason the female one didn't survive and the male one did was because the female one was still buried with only the sphere free while the male one was no longer buried. So the excess heat used while wielding that much power was able to dissipate for the male one and wasn't able to for the female one. So you ended up with Slag for that one.

 

The only part of the sa'angreal that seems to produce anything in the way of ambient energy was the sphere, which wasn't buried. Beyond that there is no evidence to suggest that the Choedan Kal produces heat as a by product.

 

I still maintain the simplest line of logic runs clearly to the only known stressor involved in the event--Rand trying to force saidar to mix with saidin.

he wasn't trying to mix them,in fact the reason he used saidar was because they wouldn't mix and saidar would remain safe

Yes, I know. You're not reading what I'm writing. I know his end result was not them mixing, but he forced them against each other to utilize the force generated by their inability to mix.

The only issue I have with Lucker's reasoning is that that's not the way I read the Cleansing passages in the text. To me, it reads much more like Rand used saidar to form a hose to siphon saidin, forcing it through that hose until it touched Shadar Logoth, and the mutual attraction between the SL evil and the taint acted like gravity to continue pulling the taint through. After getting the thing started, Rand didn't have to force saidin and the taint through the saidar tube so much as hold on to keep from being swept away.

The mutual attraction between SL and the Taint is the second principle I spoke of that allowed the Cleansing to happen, that being said the test makes very clear that Rand used saidar in the way I stated...

Drawing on saidin, fighting it, mastering it in the deadly dance he knew so well, he forced it into the flowery weave of saidar. And it flowed through. Saidin and saidar, like and unlike, could not mix. The flow of saidin squeezed in on itself, away from the surrounding saidar, and the saidar pushed it from all sides, compressing it further

As such, irrespective whether you or I am right about how the Cleansing worked, it still involved the same use of saidar as a stressor on saidin--saidar was pushing, saidar was the conduit, saidin was compressed, forced by saidar to flow faster. In effect saidar was the active element, and the strain of that is what destroyed the sa'angreal.

Actually the more likely reason was not the amount of Power drawn (far more saidin was used than saidar [an ant/mole hill next to a mountain]), or the strength of the channeler who used it (Nynaeve is cited as having sufficient strength, and the point you're referencing (Moghedien's comment) about the Choedan Kal being used at great strength for a long period of time is just as applicable to the male one--more so, because more Power was used). The most likely reason was the USE to which saidar was put.

 

 

Though really the simplest reason the female one didn't survive and the male one did was because the female one was still buried with only the sphere free while the male one was no longer buried. So the excess heat used while wielding that much power was able to dissipate for the male one and wasn't able to for the female one. So you ended up with Slag for that one.

 

The only part of the sa'angreal that seems to produce anything in the way of ambient energy was the sphere, which wasn't buried. Beyond that there is no evidence to suggest that the Choedan Kal produces heat as a by product.

 

I still maintain the simplest line of logic runs clearly to the only known stressor involved in the event--Rand trying to force saidar to mix with saidin.

he wasn't trying to mix them,in fact the reason he used saidar was because they wouldn't mix and saidar would remain safe

He was, actually, though of course he was fully aware that they couldn't. That was one of the core two principles which allowed the Cleansing to occur. Here, I'm going to re-post my original description, since its clear the point is not being made...

Actually the more likely reason was not the amount of Power drawn (far more saidin was used than saidar [an ant/mole hill next to a mountain]), or the strength of the channeler who used it (Nynaeve is cited as having sufficient strength, and the point you're referencing (Moghedien's comment) about the Choedan Kal being used at great strength for a long period of time is just as applicable to the male one--more so, because more Power was used). The most likely reason was the USE to which saidar was put.

Specifically, in the Cleansing Rand used saidar to wring the Taint from saidin--as if saidin were a wet towel, the Taint were the water, and saidar were the hands that wrung it. Of course it's actually more complex than that, and far worse--saidin and saidar cannot mix and Rand used that concept to generate the force that compressed the Taint out of saidin--and saidar was the side of the Power he used to generate that force.

Hence, saidar was the stressor, whilst saidin was largely passive--the effects on it being the result of the application of force upon it by saidar. And, as a result, though more saidin was used, it was saidar that expended the effort, and thus the saidar Choedan Kal that felt the strain of it (and like you might snap a tendon in your hand if you wrung a towel too forcefully, so too did the Choedan Kal break)

Actually the more likely reason was not the amount of Power drawn (far more saidin was used than saidar [an ant/mole hill next to a mountain]), or the strength of the channeler who used it (Nynaeve is cited as having sufficient strength, and the point you're referencing (Moghedien's comment) about the Choedan Kal being used at great strength for a long period of time is just as applicable to the male one--more so, because more Power was used). The most likely reason was the USE to which saidar was put.

 

 

Though really the simplest reason the female one didn't survive and the male one did was because the female one was still buried with only the sphere free while the male one was no longer buried. So the excess heat used while wielding that much power was able to dissipate for the male one and wasn't able to for the female one. So you ended up with Slag for that one.

The only part of the sa'angreal that seems to produce anything in the way of ambient energy was the sphere, which wasn't buried. Beyond that there is no evidence to suggest that the Choedan Kal produces heat as a by product.

I still maintain the simplest line of logic runs clearly to the only known stressor involved in the event--Rand trying to force saidar to mix with saidin.

Good point. I'm actually not sure how the Female one was destroyed. How can something made to draw power in be destroyed by drawring power?I mean I understand how Rand destroyed his, he did it on purpose. But I always thought the Female one just destroyed the key. They I read closer and realized the actualy item was destroyed.

 

Nyneave. She was strong enough to use it, but apparently not strong enough to use it for the extent of time with she did without it "overheating". Not really sure why that would happen though. Afterall even the weakest channeller can use a angreal without it being destroyed. But then, the CK are sort of special. Their power levels are off the charts, so I suppose they're basically glass cannons. The "handle with extreme caution" type of equipement.

Actually the more likely reason was not the amount of Power drawn (far more saidin was used than saidar [an ant/mole hill next to a mountain]), or the strength of the channeler who used it (Nynaeve is cited as having sufficient strength, and the point you're referencing (Moghedien's comment) about the Choedan Kal being used at great strength for a long period of time is just as applicable to the male one--more so, because more Power was used). The most likely reason was the USE to which saidar was put.

Specifically, in the Cleansing Rand used saidar to wring the Taint from saidin--as if saidin were a wet towel, the Taint were the water, and saidar were the hands that wrung it. Of course it's actually more complex than that, and far worse--saidin and saidar cannot mix and Rand used that concept to generate the force that compressed the Taint out of saidin--and saidar was the side of the Power he used to generate that force.

Hence, saidar was the stressor, whilst saidin was largely passive--the effects on it being the result of the application of force upon it by saidar. And, as a result, though more saidin was used, it was saidar that expended the effort, and thus the saidar Choedan Kal that felt the strain of it (and like you might snap a tendon in your hand if you wrung a towel too forcefully, so too did the Choedan Kal break)

Could Lanfear have compelled Mat when she met him in the tower in TDR? Chapter 20, Visitations page 227 in the paperback that has book 1-10 listed.

 

I've always wondered what she did to him on that day.

According to RJ, she just checked his health.

I know he went on record to state that in womens circles the power level isn't the sum total, I was wondering if this was different in mixed gender circles, or would the same rules apply where as woman A B C in a circle creates a power level != to A + B + C, but with saidin added in too so men A B C != A + B + C, then the two values added up or some such

Cross gender circles use more of each members strength than female only circles, though still not the whole strength. There are other oddities, such as that a cross gender circle can create larger gateways than single gender or single channelers of an equivelent strength,

I know, right.

Can I just say yuck about the entirety of Graendal in TofM. Every single part of it represents the worst plotline in the books ever.

or he raped/violated her

That would be an interesting child... a Quarter-man? Would he only have one eye (2+0)/2 = 1? Either way though, i'm still going with Graendal being either mind-trapped or dead cuz she has failed a bunch, and certainly more than Mesaana or debatably Moghedien did

Would you believe that RJ actually has answered this? Fades can't impregnate women--not because their infertile, they are, but their sperm kills human ova.

With the admition of guilt from a certain brown, and her ability to freely use compulsion, is not everyone's actions (that she has been in contact with) speculate, from the beginning?

 

Everyone has the ability to freely use compulsion. If they've the knowledge, skill and inclination, of course, and therein is your overall answer. You can speculate about anyone, and all it will bring you is nothing.

An interesting little aside - rereading book 7 - Lan comes to his new AS. She tells him to come to her and he doesn't. She compels him through the bond but says that she needed to do it with a light touch or he might realize it. I wonder how often the AS do that with their warders. Reading the books as a kid, I thought being a warder would be cool. Realizing that the bonding is not totally benign now, I think I'd pass.

And are you aware that Aes Sedai can drain the strength of their gaiden to sustain their own strength... up to and including taking it all--i.e. killing the gaiden.

With the admition of guilt from a certain brown, and her ability to freely use compulsion, is not everyone's actions (that she has been in contact with) speculate, from the beginning?

Everyone has the ability to freely use compulsion. If they've the knowledge, skill and inclination, of course, and therein is your overall answer. You can speculate about anyone, and all it will bring you is nothing.

I have a question about something that took place in LoC. Alannna bonds Rand against his will and then later makes the comment to Verin that she wasn't able to compel him using the bond. Has the reason as to why she couldn't compel him been revealed yet? Did I just miss it?

 

AS can not use the "spirit" weave to compel a strong male channeler like she could a normal warder she is bonded to. The Ashaman bond however allows for compulsion with a thought to those they have bonded. No channeling required. That is the "extra bit" in the weave that Logain could do without.

 

She can, actually, so long as he is not holding saidin. It is only whilst 'wrapped in saidin'--as Rand was in that instant--that a man is immune to compulsion [as per Sammael's comment in LoC 6; Threads of Woven Shadow].

 

What about the RJ "she may have a hard time controlling him" quote? Has that been specified to mean while holding saidin somewhere I haven't seen? It seems to indicate strength is a factor. I thought the spirit weave in the bond and compulsion where separate things, much like the Ashaman "extra bit".

He meant just that. The balance of authority would be skewed--which we've seen already referenced in Merise's conversation with Cadsuane, which, in its particulars, had nothing to do with use the bond to compel.

From there, if he was even speaking of the compulsive element--and I'm not sure he was, he spoke only of the control of the Bond--but if he was, then the compulsion of the bond is not hugely strong--as Myrelle makes clear, even just strong emotion can be disruptive... "Delicately she wove Spirit and touched the part of him that contained her bond; it had to be delicate, or he would be aware of it, and only the Creator knew what sort of explosion might result."

It effectively relies on the fact that the warder not know, and if they do then the warder CAN cause problems. Oh, I've no doubt in the end the Aes Sedai would get her way, but again--it causes problems, which is precisely what RJ referenced in saying that she 'might have a hard time controlling him'. Because, if the balance of authority shifts between the two and the man starts not being willing to follow orders to unquestioningly then he will begin to start noticing when she uses compulsion, resulting in... well, explosions of an indeterminate nature.

So, when you combine these two points here--Merise's concerns about the shifting balance of authority between them due to Narishma's growth in strength, and the realities of the compulsive element of the bond, and you throw in the fact that whenever the man siezes saidin he becomes immune to those elements--yes, a relatively weak Aes Sedai would be in a position where she might have a hard time controlling a relatively strong male channeler warder.

But innate strength does not guard against compulsion. Sammael is very clear--only holding saidin does that, and then, just holding it suffices.

I have a question about something that took place in LoC. Alannna bonds Rand against his will and then later makes the comment to Verin that she wasn't able to compel him using the bond. Has the reason as to why she couldn't compel him been revealed yet? Did I just miss it?

 

AS can not use the "spirit" weave to compel a strong male channeler like she could a normal warder she is bonded to. The Ashaman bond however allows for compulsion with a thought to those they have bonded. No channeling required. That is the "extra bit" in the weave that Logain could do without.

She can, actually, so long as he is not holding saidin. It is only whilst 'wrapped in saidin'--as Rand was in that instant--that a man is immune to compulsion [as per Sammael's comment in LoC 6; Threads of Woven Shadow].

The thing Moiraine did to get rid of her invisibility illusion's residue in the blight that sounds like what's later called 'Unweaving' in TPoD: it seems she should be well aware of the extreme danger with several important people nearby (the Dragon Reborn and two other ta'veren). Is this just another case of an early bookism, or does she have yet another secret Talent like Avi has?

Actually it doesn't sound like an unweaving--it seems to have precisely the same effect, yes, but by description seems very different--Moiraine has already released the weave, for one thing, making unweaving impossible, and she also closes her eyes, something that would be suicidal during an unweaving.

One suggestion is some sort of scrub weave--say something very weak woven in spirit that scrubbed the residue away and leaving only a tiny residue of its own that would fade swiftly. Another is that what she did wasn't removing the actual residue as such, but whatever residue it is that Fade's can sense, which may well be something entirely different, for all that the terms are similar (wouldn't be the first time--Delving, for instance, can mean both checking someones health and searching for ores).

That being said it's most probably an early bookism of some form--for instance Inverted Light shouldn't really leave a strong residue to begin with.

Cool! We still have to contend with Ishamael's knowing the DR is somewhere in the Two Rivers as early as two years before Winter Night, but I wonder why it never occurred to me that Larelle might've been BA. She certainly wouldn't have been the only Black sister to enjoy such stellar reputation.

Ishamael's resources are not the Black Ajah's resources--it would actually explain why Moiraine was wrong about having stole a march on the shadow--she stole one on the Black Ajah, but not the Shadow as a whole.

I know, I know... people in the Wheel not sharing information? It's impossible. :D

The Shadow Rising, Chapter 42, the last page:

Verin considered them right back, then suddenly, without seeming to look, reached behind her to snatch a girl of about ten of twelve out of the onlookers. The girl, her long dark hair caught up with blue ribbons, went rigid with shock. "You know Daise Congar, girl?" Verin said. "Well you find her and tell her there are injured men who need a Wisdom's herbs, and tell her to jump"

 

Now maybe Perrin, as a man, is bad at telling ages, however looks like theres an unknown sparker in the Two Rivers? How else would Verin have known she was there? Just something that caught my eye. Didn't Rand mention a really young girl with the girls Verin and Allana took out of the TR? I know 12 is kinda young to spark, but I suppose there are exceptions to every rule.

Verin references two girls around that age in LoC...

Five of these girls—five!—had the spark inborn, including Mat's sister and Wile and young Jancy; they would channel eventually whether anyone taught them or not and be very strong. She and Alanna had left two more behind to be gathered up in a year or so, when they were old enough to leave home.

A year or two would fit well with Perrin's guess of 10 to 12

is it implied that meilyn killed larelle? or could she still be alive just not used again?

Merean Redhill, do you mean? Yes, that would be my guess, but we don't know for sure. Either way, as you say, Larelle hasn't turned out anywhere since.

Or possibly she was also Black and hunting the Dragon, and that is why she hasn't turned up--because like Moiraine she was out in the world hunting for Rand.

I wonder if this might not have been the subject matter of the Moiraine prequel. We know it dealt with why Moiraine was able to get to the Two Rivers 'just in time' [indicating there was a specific reason of significant enough drama for a story]. We also know she thought she had 'stolen a march on the Shadow'.

Maybe Larelle resurfaced. Moiraine investigated due to her long absence and connection to Merean, providing the drama (hunting the Black Ajah), and in the process Larelle gave Moiraine a clue that they themselve didn't understand--for instance the story of a Second Captain of the Companions finding a child, or something like that. Larelle and the Black Ajah go off investigating in Illian, but Moiraine through her own investigations already knows the Second Captain was from Emmond's Field.... or some such.

Moiraine gets the right clue to get her there just in time, and thinks she's stolen a march on the shadow, and some intrigue to make a story....

You have to remember, Aiel take their security very seriously. It's not very likely Shadowspawn would've made it through into one of their keeps, but even if some did, we were told several times that even Aiel children know how to defend themselves. If push came to shove, I'm sure they'd have made good use of their belt knives.

And indeed they do, as we saw with Seana, though that may not be enough to save them. Wise One's die like anyone else.

If siuan heard chesmal emry lie that means shes black ajah why didnt she tell the wonder girls to have a bigger look at her in the tower or done any sort of investigation when she became amyrlin. They take alot in later books about how hard it is to mention black ajah but they were getting mentioned and proven 20 years ago.

She didn't connect the lie--as far as she knew, Chesmal simply reported the news. That being said it would appear Sierin Vayu made the connection based on the note Siuan slipped under her door--or at least asked enough questions to scare Chesmal--as Chesmal then incited the Red Ajah into killing her.

Also, I have heard discussion in a lot of threads about AS releasing Warders from their bonds.

A lot of people ask why Rand didn't just make Alanna do this.

I have read through the entire series multiple times and don't actually remember anyone ever saying warders can be released from their bonds.

I remember multiple times that transferring the bond from one AS to another was mentioned.

Can anyone find a direct quote referring to an AS being able to release her Warder without transferring the bond to someone else?

There are a couple. The reason Rand didn't make Alanna do it is that he did not know it was possible until Winter's Heart Chapter 25. In any case here is RJ on the issue.

Week 13 Question

 

Is the White Tower currently aware of any way to completely dissolve/undo the bond between an Aes Sedai and her Warder so that the link no longer exists and all the positive and negative effects of the bond are removed?

Robert Jordan

 

 

Yes, they are. It is called releasing a Warder, and an Aes Sedai who is very old or injured so badly that she knows she is going to die will, if she has the strength, release him so he doesn't suffer from her death. This does require the two of them to be together, and a little more time that laying on the bond. If they are physically apart, or she doesn't have enough time or strength remaining, touch on him.

It has also been used to get rid of a Warder who proved to be unsuitable in some way, such as a man who is discovered to be a thief or who takes reckless chances, a fighter of duels who won't stop without the bond being used to force him. No sister is going to want a Warder who will risk getting himself killed, with all the attendant results to her, for no very good reason.

Although use of the bond in that way (controlling) was not unknown in the past, it came to be regarded as a form of Compulsion to use it so except in the slightest forms. Besides, using the bond to control a Warder all the time is a lot of work. An Aes Sedai wants somebody who can watch her back and keep it safe, not somebody she has to work on all the time. (Which is one of the reasons Aes Sedai stopped bonding men against their will. Not ethical concerns or ethical growth, I'm afraid; it was just not very practical really.) Better simply to release the fellow who can't measure up and find another who will.

By the by, releasing a Warder except for cause (the Aes Sedai's imminent death, his own unsuitability) or because he has asked for release is something that JUST IS NOT DONE! It would gain the sister considerable opprobrium from other sisters. A sister certainly would be looked at askance if she released a Warder who was dying, for example, just to avoid the effects on her of his death. When an Aes Sedai bonds a Warder, she is expected to buy in for the full ride. For that matter, releasing him for unsuitability is considered to reflect on the sister's judgment. She should have known better about him from the start.

My bad about the location. I was having an argument with the boss, and wasn't thinking.

I kinda thought that was a forgone conclusion. DIdn't he use his Rabid Lion metaphor in that scene too, or what that another one.

 

How would the TInker know they were whitecloaks though? I assumed they would hide their idenity.

I did too, but someone I trusted in the fandom seemed shocked by the idea, so I figured I'd formalise it.

As for how they knew--its evident the killers meant to leave everyone dead. Perhaps they bragged, or joked amongst themselves. Perhaps the Tinker in question was particularily clever--certainly he was strong willed and made a solid effort to fight his killers as he was dying.

Or perhaps the Tinker simply wished to warn the Dragon Reborn of the wild Dragonsworn--I don't believe this. I believe they truly did expose themselves as Whitelcoaks... but you never know.

I've long believed this, but it only recently became aware to me that people havn't really considered this point. I don't know, maybe you have... anyway here are my thoughts.

Firstly, in The Lord of Chaos chapter 22 Mat comes across a caravan of slaughtered Tinkers in Altara, and finds one having inscribed a message in his own blood...

A man in a coat that still showed a little eye-wrenching blue lay hard against it, one sprawled hand "black with blood. What he had written in shaky letters stood out darker than the wood of the wagon bottom.

 

TELL THE DRAGON REBORN

 

Tell him what? Mat thought. That somebody had killed a whole caravan of Tinkers? Or had the man died before he could write whatever it was? It would not have been the first time Tinkers had come onto important information. In a story he would have lived just long enough to scrawl the vital bit that meant victory. Well, whatever the message, nobody was ever going to know a word more now.

So, Jordan makes a big deal out of pointing out this might have been important, but no explanation as to why. And the question is, simply...

Tell the Dragon Reborn... what?

The answer, to my mind, is simply. Firstly, in the Lord of Chaos Prologue, Niall reigns in Carridan, and assigns him a new mission.

"Then if I am not going to Altara, my Lord Captain Commander, what are my orders?"

 

Niall let his head fall back with a sigh. He felt tired suddenly. He felt all of his years and more. "Oh, you will be going to Altara, Carridin."

 

Rand al'Thor's name and face had been known to him since shortly after the supposed invasion from across the sea at Falme, an Aes Sedai plot that had cost the Children a thousand men and begun 'the spread of the Dragonsworn and chaos across Tarabon and Arad Doman. He had known what al'Thor was and believed he could use him as a goad to force the nations to unite. Once bound together, behind his leadership, they could have disposed of al'Thor and been ready for the Trolloc hordes. He had sent emissaries to every ruler of every land to point out the danger. But al'Thor moved faster than he could believe even now. He had meant to let a rabid lion roam the streets long enough to frighten everyone, but the lion had become a giant that moved like lightning.

 

Yet all was not lost; he had to keep reminding himself. More than a thousand years ago, Guaire Amalasan had named himself the Dragon Reborn, a false Dragon who could channel. Amalasan had conquered more land than al'Thor now held, before a young king named Artur Paendrag Tanreall took the field against him and began his own climb to empire. Niall did not consider himself another Artur Hawkwing, but he was what the world had. He would not give up while he lived.

 

Already he had begun to counter al'Thor's growing strength. Besides emissaries to rulers, he had sent men to Tarabon and Arad Doman. A few men to find the right ears, to whisper that all their troubles could be laid at the feet of the Dragonsworn, those fools and Darkfriends who had declared for al'Thor. And at the feet of the White Tower. Plenty of rumors already came out of Tarabon of Aes Sedai involved in the fighting, rumors to ready men's ears to hear the truth. Now was time to launch the next part of his new plan, to show the fencesitters which side to choose. Time. He had so little time. Yet he could not help smiling. There were those, now dead, who had once said, "When Niall smiles, he is going for the throat."

 

"Altara and Murandy," he told Carridin, "are about to be tormented by a plague of Dragonsworn."

So, basically, Niall's plan was to have Children of the Light do terrible things in Murandy and Altara, and when the fear was great enough, move in to 'stop the dragonsworn' and so doing unite Altara and Murandy behind him. Of course, he was assasinated before he could follow through.

All of which doesn't matter--what matters is his plan. Altara and Murandy are to be plagued by Dragonsworn, whom commit the usual monstrous acts... such as, you know, slaughtering a caravan full of peace-loving Tinkers.

The timeline matches--Niall gave this order in the LoC prologue and we see the slaughter in LoC 22. The location matches. Altara--Niall even emphasizes this. The actions match 'Dragonsworn plague' as Niall was requesting equals 'slaughter'.

As such, the warning the dying Tinker wanted given to the Dragon Reborn was 'Whitecloaks are pretending to be Dragonsworn and are killing folk' or even just, 'Dragonsworn are killing people.'But I think the former is more likely.

Yes, of course, my appologies. Semirhage never directly stated that you personally were wrong Terez. My tendency toward the hyperbolic always tends to shoot me in the foot.

What she did say was the Lews Therin's voice was real, which was in direct contradiction of your point. Still it was wrong of me to present it in the idea that she directly contradicted you personally, Terez.

Still, she did say what she said, which was, and I quote: "his voice is real"

This is what I mean about semantics and distinctions. You're reading way too much into Semirhage's usage of the word 'real'.

 

I'm not actually 'reading' anything into it. I'm literally just saying... Lady of Pain said the voice was real.

 

Yes, but you said that her statement means that the voice was not just a taint-induced delusion. That's reading something into it, obviously. I choose to interpret her statement as referring to the fact that the memories are real, because otherwise it makes no sense. She also said he was only hearing the voice because he is insane, which contradicts the assertion that the voice is 'real' in the realer sense.

Actually I said that she said the voice was real. She does. No reading into it. Here, I'll quote it: "Clearly, he is hearing Lews Therin's voice. It makes no difference that his voice is real, however."

Not reading a thing into it. Just reading it. Sorry.

Other people are obviously reborn in the series and don't suffer the same way...

 

Yes, but do those people have past life memories?

We don't know, though I suspect it's likely. Certainly, we know sometimes that the manifestation of a past life voice can occur, but we have no evidence as yet as to whether the past life memory transfer Rand experiences is normal. The fact that Rand later achieves full reintegration with Lews Therin, when that is in fact cited to be very rare, may well be indicative that the state of tranfer between them is also rare--that being said, I doubt it. I think all those who suffer the manifestation of a past life personality have the memory seepage.

But yeah, sorry, we really just don't know yet.

This is what I mean about semantics and distinctions. You're reading way too much into Semirhage's usage of the word 'real'.

I'm not actually 'reading' anything into it. I'm literally just saying... Lady of Pain said the voice was real.