I always thought that every woman in this series is childishly entitled and/or insane. So the deal didn't come that out of left field for me. Though maybe if we'd had a scene that shows off exactly how good the Seafolk are at haggling it may have gone down smoother. I still wish we could see the Grey Ajah in successful action beyond merely being told of their accomplishments.

YES! THIS is my one big problem with wot

immature women who should be all grown up.

 

 

 

On the contrary, it's only channelers - specifically AS - that are treated so poorly. Nynaeve wasn't "abused", the windfinders were merely being very forceful in their teaching, standard practice among the athan meire. Although i think they were a little harsh on her, it wasn't unjustified IMO

I am fairly certain that somewhere in the books it is stated that any shorebound teacher (of channeling, or anything else) is treated as being equivalent to a deckhand.

 

But they pay them well. They recognize the necessity, but view academics as an inferior way to learn something - you learn by doing and by training and by climbing the ranks. The shorebound are "weak" and have no concept of rank or influence (and the AS system of raw channeling strength as a measure of rank always felt wrong to me, somehow).

 

 

I think a big part of the problem is the cultural disconnect, especially in the role of advisors/teachers or anything like that.

 

A big part of it was that Elayne and co thought the advisor/teacher was a honoured position, whereas obviously the sea folk thought it was a low ranking or terrible rank.

 

Which, let's be honest, isn't a very realistic outlook. What kind of culture regards being a teacher as being just short of a deckhand, and actually seems to find it shaming? 

 

 

I always took the Sea Folk's position on the Aes Sedai teachers as a defense mechanism more than anything else. I mean, really, if you and your people had managed to avoid WT entanglements for pretty much ever and you got the opportunity to learn from them, knowing how they always march in and take over and turn everyone into obedient lapdogs (be it from bullying or manipulation), would you want to take any chances that your entire race ends up being controlled by the WT? I sure as hell wouldn't. I'd want to make sure the "teachers" knew their place and that they would not be taking over or manipulating my people at all, and would want to go out of my way to make them fear us instead of the other way around. Additionally, the Sea Folk knew the AS would somehow end up stealing every last channeler from them given half a chance, and wanted to nip that in the bud. The scene where they abused Nynaeve irritated me to no end, and I find most of the Sea Folk detestable, but I can't blame them for wanting to get the upper hand with the AS...otherwise, they would've ended up obeying the AS and jumping when the bloody women clapped. 

 

The Sea Folk had a very strict hierarchy and ranking in their culture. There was no need of teachers, as there were few students. When a member of the SF comes of age (probably 11 or so) they start working to "earn their pay". At around 15, they are required to become apprenticed (how apprenticeships work is unclear). They learn by seeing and by doing and by discipline for not doing fast enough. The culture disdains academic education because it gets in the way of learning by doing. 

 

 

What kind of culture regards being a teacher as being just short of a deckhand, and actually seems to find it shaming? 

 

 

I always took the Sea Folk's position on the Aes Sedai teachers as a defense mechanism more than anything else. I mean, really, if you and your people had managed to avoid WT entanglements for pretty much ever and you got the opportunity to learn from them, knowing how they always march in and take over and turn everyone into obedient lapdogs (be it from bullying or manipulation), would you want to take any chances that your entire race ends up being controlled by the WT? I sure as hell wouldn't. I'd want to make sure the "teachers" knew their place and that they would not be taking over or manipulating my people at all, and would want to go out of my way to make them fear us instead of the other way around. Additionally, the Sea Folk knew the AS would somehow end up stealing every last channeler from them given half a chance, and wanted to nip that in the bud. The scene where they abused Nynaeve irritated me to no end, and I find most of the Sea Folk detestable, but I can't blame them for wanting to get the upper hand with the AS...otherwise, they would've ended up obeying the AS and jumping when the bloody women clapped. 

 

 

Except it isn't only Aes Sedai teachers that are treated this way, it's ANY teacher from outside the Sea Folk.  They treat teachers and instructors so badly that the Sea Folk have to literally offer BAGS of gold just to get people to agree to come on board and instruct for a period of time, regardless of what they're supposed to be there to teach.

 

On the contrary, it's only channelers - specifically AS - that are treated so poorly. Nynaeve wasn't "abused", the windfinders were merely being very forceful in their teaching, standard practice among the athan meire. Although i think they were a little harsh on her, it wasn't unjustified IMO

 

Actually, it was Ghealdan not Murandy.

The quote is in Crossroads of Twilight chapter 24.

 

"... And he has a coterie of twenty or thirty he keeps close and trains privately.  Every man who wears the Dragon is one of that group except me, and he'd have kept the Dragon from me, if he dared. ..."

 

oops, thats what i meant. Thanks!

I don't remember the exact quote; but Logain said something along the lines that Taim would have held back the dragon pin [from Logain] if he dared. But Logain was too strong and too well trained, and too public for him to refuse raising him to Asha'man. I would theorize that it would take Logain about a month of hard riding to make it all the way to caemlyn. He would have to cross half of Altara and the entire Murandy, and half of Andor. Of course, he could have ran into one of the Black Towers recruiting parties and asked to be tested; or perhaps he went to his estates - being a lord of murandy prior to declaring himself the dragon reborn, he could have had some access to his familys wealth. 

So it's probably about 30 days from the AS camp, and was probably raised to full ashaman shortly after.

I just read an interesting piece. When Cadsuane goes to the Sun Palace in the winter, she confronts Alanna. Alanna embraces the source, and Cads feels one of her hair ornaments go slightly cold. 

(PoD)

"Alanna stiffened. The light of saidar suddenly shone around her.

"If you wish to be truly fulish, " Cadsuane smiled, a cold smile. She made no move to embrace the Source herself. One of her dangling hair ornaments, intertwined golden crescents, was cool on her temple.

Mayhaps another weave-blocking terangreal, like Mat's medallion?

 

 

 

Since it was a long time since Nynaeve spoken with Egwene, Egwene probably felt that Nynaeve was wasting time

Wasting time!?  I don't think that's a very fair description of what Nynaeve was doing.  Since she'd last spoken to Egwene I believe she had cleansed saidin, sent Lan to the Borderlands, assisted in fighting off the shadowspawn (and the subsequent healing of injured soldiers) in the attack on the mansion in Tear, been helping to keep Rand sane (she was the only AS he trusted), prevented him from slaughtering the Borderlanders, healing madness, and generally helping Rand.  I can't believe Egwene would actually think Nynaeve was sitting around doing nothing.  She knew Nynaeve was with Rand.

 

The problem was that Nynaeve was a bit of a maverick at that point. She had been avoiding Egwene for some time, and while it was important for someone to be close to Rand, the White Tower - and Egwene - needed her support. 

 

 

 

This always bothered me. after elayne and nynaeve use need to find the Bowl of Winds in TAR, they can't find it again using need because "you can't have your cake and eat it too". Why can't they find it again by picturing "the dusty storeroom, with the iron chest, that has the BoW" or somesuch? 

This always bugged me.

(and why did they run outside the stairs, instead of just 'imagining' themselves on the roof, or in the front of the building, etc?)

 

Could a person who entered TAR in person travel to another TAR location the same way someone who dreamed into TAR can?

I'm guessing just to add tension and plot, but if you want to justify it I suppose need only works once, and describing a room isn't the same as knowing where it is, so that stopped them from finding it that way.

 

Egwene didn't know where the museum in the Panarch's palace was (or even the palace itself) in Tanchico, yet she was able to go there just from an illustration in a book. Need only works once, i got that. But if it was so important, they would remember enough of the dusty room to go back there.

 

They can remember every detail of the dusty room, but if they don't know where the room is to begin with, I guess that would be the problem in shifting there in TAR.  Maybe?  I dunno, just a guess.

 

We've seen other examples that one does not need to know the precise location of a place to find it in TAR (Egwenes foray into Tanchico, is one).

 

This always bothered me. after elayne and nynaeve use need to find the Bowl of Winds in TAR, they can't find it again using need because "you can't have your cake and eat it too". Why can't they find it again by picturing "the dusty storeroom, with the iron chest, that has the BoW" or somesuch? 

This always bugged me.

(and why did they run outside the stairs, instead of just 'imagining' themselves on the roof, or in the front of the building, etc?)

 

Could a person who entered TAR in person travel to another TAR location the same way someone who dreamed into TAR can?

I'm guessing just to add tension and plot, but if you want to justify it I suppose need only works once, and describing a room isn't the same as knowing where it is, so that stopped them from finding it that way.

 

Egwene didn't know where the museum in the Panarch's palace was (or even the palace itself) in Tanchico, yet she was able to go there just from an illustration in a book. Need only works once, i got that. But if it was so important, they would remember enough of the dusty room to go back there.

This always bothered me. after elayne and nynaeve use need to find the Bowl of Winds in TAR, they can't find it again using need because "you can't have your cake and eat it too". Why can't they find it again by picturing "the dusty storeroom, with the iron chest, that has the BoW" or somesuch? 

This always bugged me.

(and why did they run outside the stairs, instead of just 'imagining' themselves on the roof, or in the front of the building, etc?)

Could a person who entered TAR in person travel to another TAR location the same way someone who dreamed into TAR can?

There are/were two Bores:

1. Is a place in the Pattern where it is possible to detect the DO

2. The DO's prison.

1-A is where Shayol Gul is now, the explosion of a hole being "bored" through the pattern into the DO's prison, and the destruction of the Sharom, is a real-world area where the pattern is "thin" and the DO can influence from beyond the bore.

As far as the DO being able to cause wholesale destruction, that is debatable. Perhaps until he is fully freed, the limit of his power is changing the weather? It's been theorized on theoryland that the wholesale pattern unraveling shit was caused by balefire.

And what in the name of hell does that mean? Dangerous how? Hell the Black Tower are dangerous, you don't see him fearing to use them.

a saangreal capable of destroying the world?

I know the reason is that the story wouldn't happen if it was, but now that Saidin is clean why doesn't Rand use the Choedan Kal? Like, that could probably end any physical conflict before it happened. It'd make the last battle a cakewalk.

I dunno. I'd rather think that a collection of average-strength angreal for the Light Side Channelers would have given them the desperate edge. But who knows? Perrin's Ashaman take the CK and blow up the dark side forces?

Also, Rand was acting callously - harder than hard, and quite depressed and somewhat insane as well to boot. It wasn't just that he balefired them, in his mind they were already dead (i would like to hypothesize that the CK Balestream contributed to the pattern breaking down in the last books, much like its been theorized that Demmy was instructed to unleash balefire in service to the DO - i think on Theoryland theres an essay on that).

True, he did end up killing a Forsaken and a black sister, but he didnt nail Granny.

For Egwene, it was war - there is almost no chance of rescuing a damane before its too late; she herself was lucky. If the seanchan didn't learn Travelling, they would still learn valuable information about the AS and powerful weaves for other damane that could be used against them. It was a difficult but necessary decision for her - kill her sisters who would otherwise be - for all intents and purposes - irredeemably enslaved; or allow her enemies to learn WT secrets.

It's also mentioned - i think by Sammael - that her slaves were virtually worthless from Granny's Compulsion. 

Why did Egwene call Siuan to the carpet right after she was raised to Amyrlin? (quote) [Egwene]"This won't do, Siuan. I know everything. Daughter."

An AS cannot tell what she believes to be an untruth plainly, but I would assume expressions and sarcasm could work because she doesn't believe that she is saying an untruth; its an expression. RJ stated that there are a thousand loopholes in the three oaths

RAFO

 

 

Rand & Min like rabbits; which book & chapter and which scene?

 

Rand & Aviendha in snow, I recall them only walking/running around in that scene; not anything sexual.

 

Perrin & Faile; their first scenes after Shadow Rising seem to indicate that they just traveled around after their wedding.

Yeah, you DEFINITELY need to learn to read between the lines.  RJ is never explicit, he never writes "and then they banged it out," haha.

 

Different readers could interpret scenes differently.

 

Rand & Aviendha; from re-reading the scene, the only sexual thing they did was kissing.

Rand & Min; all I recall of them in mid series was them visiting various people.

 

 

 

Perrin & Faile; their first scenes after Shadow Rising seem to indicate that they just traveled around after their wedding.

after plenty of intim

From re-reading several Perrin & Faile scenes in Lord of Chaos, I still think that they only traveled around during the time of Fires of Heaven.

 

rand and min first started getting together after coulevere hanged herself. rand has a pov shortly after where he remembers "forcing himself" on her, and min basically tells him that he's an idiot for not realizing that she wanted to sleep with him - that it was consensual.

The only scene where its implied that perrin and faile were together was the night of their wedding and when she led the watch hill people to fight off the trollocs, it says that perrin grabbed failed and hurried her into the inn.

for the rest? well, perrin is married, so for what reason would they not sleep together (except in carhain, when she gets jealous of perrin/berelain).

Rand and Aviehenda doing it in the snow, well ya gotta reread that bit.

If you personally would rather believe that all the characters were chaste, go ahead (i personally wouldn't mind the sex stuff being trimmed out a bit) but it adds weight and realism to the characters.

Perrin & Faile; their first scenes after Shadow Rising seem to indicate that they just traveled around after their wedding.

after plenty of intim

 

Perrin & Faile; their first scenes after Shadow Rising seem to indicate that they just traveled around after their wedding.

Yeah, you DEFINITELY need to learn to read between the lines.  RJ is never explicit, he never writes "and then they banged it out," haha.

 

Lol! However, i found rand's moodiness after...rabbitting...with Min for the first time to be unrealistic. As was his "date" with Elayne in the palace. I also did not enjoy Mat's "adventures" in the first chapter of Amol, a very clumsy scene, IMO.

And its assumed that Perrin and Faile were together at least since the end of TSR, when they were wed in Emonds Field.

They arent supposed to. As it says in the accepted test, the woman is supposed to be washed of all ties that once bound her. The Tower is her home now, 

 

In reality, they still hold whatever loyalties to their homeland. In terms of following orders, yes, they would have to follow orders even if it was to the detriment of their homeland. 

until one gains the shawl, and the experience necessary, her ties to her previous life are broken. They are restored with the shawl, i believe, but (hopefully) the newly raised AS understands the Tower must come first. Why the Tower first? The Tower stands for stability in the world, a beacon of the forces of Light. 

Like another person told, the crossing balefires caused the link.

Main reason for Moridin's balefire seems to be to prevent Mashadar from being balefired.

they both were defending themselves from Mashadar, both attampted to balefire Mashadar at the same time, and balefire touching balefire is never a good idea. I believe the link was unintentional; Moridin becomes very melancholy and nihilistic because of Rand's darkness and moodyness. However, the link was a tool that they took advantage of.

 

I don't know about a full page describing a dress but there were ten back to back pages describing toe nails and nail polish. From memory Elayne had red toe nails, Aviendha red, Egwene red, Min red, Moiraine red, Nynaeve red ... or was that yellow? I can't remember :-(

Do you remember in which book it was?

 

i think he's kidding you. I dont think there was any one page, but if you remove all mentions of skirt-smoothing, Aies Sedai bosom, dress descriptions and baths you could easily chop a thousand pages from the series 

 

perhaps i cnat remember, but was there a resolution to the ways & machin shin?

 

AMoL Spoiler

 

Brandon has said there was a deleted scene where the Ogier went in and fixed the ways.

 

 

link?

A desert can swallow anything. The Jenn could not survive in the waste with their pacifist mentality/theology. For arguments sake, the true* Aiel began with the establishment of Rhudian as the test for the leaders - it created a covenant that could not be ignored (as those clans that did ignore it ended up dying out) and created a common bond between all the clans and societies, so even when there was feuding, there was something greater that bound them and kept them from killing each other completely. The concept is that there was a much greater Ji that was broken, and a much greater Toh to be met, that the clan chiefs and wise ones were able to see past their differences when necessary.

Let's put this at about a hundred or so years before the Trolloc Wars - when the last AS from the AoL were dying, and the young civilizations were beginning to establish themselves. 

Even assuming the Jenn were pacifistic when it came to the Trolloc Wars (i imagine they even went to the waste, and were soundly defeated, but at great cost to the clans). It's fair to guess that the Jenn also fought the Trollocs (perhaps as noncomabtants aiding the fighters, et al) and took heavy losses; the remainder either fled the waste or assimilated into surviving clans. 

But my assumption is the Jenn, who were still serving the handful of surviving AS, were still around when the ter'angreal columns were introduced in Rands vision. 

IIRC, when Avi tries to learn what the columns can do with her Talent, she is overwhelmed by the sheer strength of the ter'angreal, not that it "ignored" her.

*By "true Aiel" i mean the most common identifiable ancestor to the 'modern day' Aiel in terms of culture, spirit and civilizations. The whole idea that the Aiel and the Tinkers share a common ancestor was a means by RJ to show that 3,000 years can make a culture unrecognizable to its forbearers.