Dragonmount could probably use a format revamp. What worked for major, long-form discussions on a huge variety of topics is not what you want for more Q&A and smaller nostalgic "what if" discussions.

I don't really know what that would look like, just a thought.

 

 

Meh. You really are dancing around a number of things to make it fit. Would be an interesting question for Brandon at some point.

 

Honestly, I have seen much worse dancing around in these forums with ideas that seem to be taken seriously.. Where words and quotes are really picked apart to its smallest threads to try to get ideas across. Especially so when it comes to the prophecy-discussions..

You linked a quote where Jordan say the Creator is completly off the chart as far as influencing events goes. I linked one where it was hinted that maybe the Creator is not completly abascent. Then you link a few qoutes about how the Creator will not help Randland win the Last Battle in an attempt by RJ to show that he wont just be using the Creator as a sudden "solve every problem"-thing. I dont see how that is dancing around to make things fit.

 

 

Wouldn't it be funny if the Ceator were just wandering around checking things out and HAPPENED to bump into Ahvi. And he really doesn't care about the Aiel per say, he was just shooting the shit in the way "The Creator" would. Hilarious. Don't buy it, but hilarious.

I am new and have to get this off my chest and think this is the most appropriate thread to do it in.

 

Why I enjoyed this series – the detailed, amazing world RJ created. Why I dislike this series – the worldview of both authors where women are relegated to being second class

 

RJ was southern and educated at the citadel and BS is I believe mormon and there is a vein to this series imo in the attitudes towards women that seems to feed into the negative stereotypes of both southerners and mormons.

 

Egwene is the most blatant symbol of this. She is essentially the most powerful woman (I do not mean in terms of the one power) in the novel and what happens to her? She dies, and not even at the end of the novel! Her romance with Gawyn sucks and I do not even know what the point of Gawyn was as the poor guy really accomplished nothing by putting on those rings. There was no redemption for him. Perhaps it would have been more acceptable to some people if she had been a lesbian, which just feeds into another stereotype.

 

So she took down Taim, which is good, but he was one of the weakest forsaken, while a man who cannot even channel takes down Demandred. Really? From the beginning, Egwene was written to be someone who wanted more than village life, someone who wanted more for herself in life, why is this bad? Unlike the trio, particularly Mat, who all seemed to be handed their talents on a silver platter and did not have to work much to learn and cultivate their talents, Egwene had to learn and train from both the AS and the Aiel in order to become Amyrlin, and was punished often. She trained for like 3 whole books, but seemingly, the moral to this story is hard work does not count for much as long as you’re blessed with talent and male.

 

The best thing about Egwene was her intolerance of the Seanchan. If the Seanchan collared men, I wonder how accepting Rand would have been of that. When Rand compromised with Tuon on this point, I could not help thinking of slavery in the US when things like the Missouri compromise was passed. After all, THAT worked out real great, right? Ultimately what the Seanchan do IS slavery and that is evil. Rand says at the end that the dark one breaks people. That’s what the Seanchan do, do they not? It really does not make sense to have the Seanchan fight the dark one when they do his work for him. Tuon’s supposed innocence in this matter, saying that these women want to be collared is so full of crap considering the Seanchan CAPTURE women. I really do not know where RJ was going with the Seanchan, but to try to make Tuon innocent of what they do as if they really believe it is right is quite unbelievable. Tuon needed to be taken down a peg or eight, she never got her comeuppance.

 

I do not think I even need to talk about 3 women willing to share Rand. I think I may have a love/hate relationship with this series that is similar to perhaps RJ’s love/hate relationship with women.

Actually I'm not sure I'd drag stereotypical geographic or religious matters into it, but the rest is all completely true, for whatever reasons, right down to the love/hate.

It is sad this has turned into the Bela thread...

Even in death you cannot find any love Egwene =(

What old lady are we talking about? Anyone have the quote?

I assumed any random old ladies were just Avi's pet Greandal.

 

 

I missed the part where Egwene turned DF, where she shunned all her friends and allies, and where she sacrificed other people to consolidate power for herself and the WT. I mean that was the prevailing theory on her before AMOL right?

Lol.

While I did find the negotiation scene strange. Some people brought up her "inconsistency" on saying she would lead the battle but then not saying anything when Elayne was given the task. I'd guess when Egwene said that she was assuming that Rand was going to insist on commanding it himself. Which he was. Obviously she couldn't be the first to raise her hand and volunteer, she'd want to be more subtle. But when Elayne was chosen, her friend, her subordinate in many ways, why risk pointing out how close Elayne was to her and both of them losing it?

The truly strange thing to me about this is the total lack of concern on the AS's part. By signing the treaty they let their secular power be stripped after 3,000 years and no one even so much as commented on it. It essentially ends their role of being above the other nations when it comes to disputes. It would have been one thing if the WT pushed for guidance and the Aiel enforced it militarily(not saying that is the right way to go, just that what AS would have pushed for). It's a sea change for the WT and huge loss of prestige that passed with nary a comment. There is no sign whatsoever of the savvy politicians and greatest players of daes dae'mar in the world.

 

That is a huge blow to and we got nothing whatsoever in any of their povs on the topic. Pretty unrealistic and it would have been a simple fix. As is, it seemed as if they didn't even realize what happened and just accepted it in a snap. Just really wish more time was spent on character reactions to these types of things. Could have been a huge set up for returning to "servants of all" if done in the correct way. It is part of a much larger issue in these last three books where internal thoughts and commentary are almost non-existent. It really take away from the depth.

 

 

Also, as long as the AS behave, and particularly if Egwene were still alive (*Sad face*), Aes Sedai may have been able to team up with the Aiel after the fact. The Aiel would still have the final say, but if they looked to Aes Sedai for guidance or support, bonus. Egwene was going to BIND THEM ALL TO THE WHITE TOWER (oh my god!), so she could have still been influential.

That said, you're right, they probably should have talked about it instead of me having to assume they all came to that conclusion instantly and independently.

I missed the part where Egwene turned DF, where she shunned all her friends and allies, and where she sacrificed other people to consolidate power for herself and the WT. I mean that was the prevailing theory on her before AMOL right?

While I did find the negotiation scene strange. Some people brought up her "inconsistency" on saying she would lead the battle but then not saying anything when Elayne was given the task. I'd guess when Egwene said that she was assuming that Rand was going to insist on commanding it himself. Which he was. Obviously she couldn't be the first to raise her hand and volunteer, she'd want to be more subtle. But when Elayne was chosen, her friend, her subordinate in many ways, why risk pointing out how close Elayne was to her and both of them losing it?

What's odd is how little Egwene stuck her nose into the main command once everything started. She really did seem to pretty much focus on her WT troops and her own battle. While that's somewhat commendable, I mean we tend to admire the duty-bound soldier who follows orders, I think it's a little against her character and a bit disappointing for me. But then I know I tend to like her for the exact reasons others don't like her.

But, Egwene's my girl. Hard not to vote for her.

You should vote for her, Mat won't need the help the way Egwene will lol

We're a little off topic, but Rand made a bridge with air that he walked across, and we were fairly reliably told that women could make bridges even longer before the "phsyics" (the physics of the OP at least) no longer worked out and the bridge would collapse.

Does that OP have to be strung between two "real" objects? Possible. I don't know the details, but there is a demonstrated example of someone holding themselves up with the OP. So I'm not entirely convinced there's a hard limit on flying with the OP.

I think we can take it as fact that you cannot lift yourself with flows of air the way you can lift someone else. But Randlanders are notoriously non-innovative, so I wouldn't take that to mean there aren't other ways to do it.

I think BenevolentCow's point was missed.

There can't be an "Our World" because we have basically traced our timeline back to seconds before the start of... well everything. Right up to the start of everything if they confirm the higgs, as they probably will. So if we know how energy particles have mass and how that created the planets yadda yadda <insert hawking's brief history of time> then how can there be other ages? They don't appear to be billions of years long in the book... and it seems weird to thing that one breaking rearranged the face of the planet, and another started with a big bang and made a whole new universe? odd.

Unless of course our universe is 1, and it always starts with a bang (har har). But there are supposed to be no beginnings or endings and that would clearly be both. Also, there's no way the stories could survive that. People, or at least a good portion of our stuff, need to live on or the whole basis of out stories being myths of a past turning can't happen.

Basically, as BenevolentCow I think was suggesting, you have to take our modern-ish world as if it were the "age" and then forget everything else we know about our past from hard sciences. Instead, humans have lived, unchanged for countless turnings of the wheel, endlessly repeating different paths of "progress" as the "universe" keeps kicking us back to near-zero once we raise so high.

Anyway, since we have to ignore so much real science to fit in the WOT mythos, then using science to prove or disprove anything else within that tweaked "our world" is pointless, cause who knows what else is changed in that fantasy version of our world.

We may look back and think, "Well obviously those 'miracles' didn't happen." But that's a modern mindset that's not really applicable to the superstitious and heavily religious society of the time period equivalent to that of the WoT.

Well yes, that's the classic "God of the gaps" argument. Where religion or faith fills in for our ignorance of how something happens or works. But that's not really true in WoT. They know how it works... it's the True Source, the wheel, threads, yadda yadda. It's visible, it's there, they can manipulate it. There's no greater mystery to their universe that requires "faith". At least none that they know of. Ignorance of ignorance is the real bliss.

Hilariously on topic, "Every time we discover a new transitional fossil, we create two more gaps in the evolutionary record".

That being said, they are extremely non-innovative with what they know. I mean, imagine all the things we'd be building/trying if we knew exactly how the mechanisms of the universe worked? But there are various reasons for that. Feudal system is probably a good one. Rich guys like status quo, and if poorer people invented a new process or tool to make more money, the rich land owners would just take it and keep them where they are, so why bother? And even Aes Sedai start in that "real world", so it permeates through society.

I just love alanna...if WoT were real, I'd want to be her Warder... It started on my 2nd read. She a very infeelable woman. And she is genuine concerned about him - a rare trait among AS.

Does she? I suppose she probably does. Though I think it was the pain she felt in him for so long that broke her. She was basically tortured by the bond. She mind raped him... but then he stockholm-ed her.

Ironically, if she knew that, she might re-examine her position.

 

That what you'd expect, but Egwene has not done so inspite of the fact that she has come to the conclusion that Rand wanted her to gather the armies. Instead of re-examining her position she's decided that he subconsciously wants her to stop him, which, shockingly, happens to be quite fortunate for her, since that's precisely what she is trying to do.

What? You are suggesting that because she thought he wanted her to oppose him she should change her mind? That would be opposition for opposition's sake, and exactly what she is accused of and what she is not guilty of. She should not deviate from what she believes, logically and responsibly, is right, just because Rand might be pulling strings.

Note that neither Nynaeve nor Elayne committed themselves to Egwene's position...

Nor did they have the visceral reaction some readers have, since they know she has good reason, given what she knows. Even Rand knows it.

"I'm happy for you, Elayne," Egwene said. "And for Rand. I'm not certain what I think of the timing. You should know that Rand is planning to break the remaining seals upon the Dark One's prison, and in so doing, risk releasing him upon the world."

Elayne pursed her lips. "Well, there are only three seals left, and they're crumbling."

"So what if he is running that risk?" Nynaeve said. "The Dark One will be freed when the final seal crumbles; best if it happens when Rand is there to battle him."

"Yes, but the seals? That's foolhardy. Surely Rand can face the Dark One, and defeat him, and seal him away without taking that risk."

"Maybe you're right," Nynaeve said.

 

Nynaeve frowned. "But Rand, if you let him free, won't that make it even worse?"

"Perhaps for a short burst," Rand said. "Opening the Bore will not free him immediately, though it will give him more strength. It must be done regardless. Think of our task as climbing a tall stone wall. Unfortunately, we are delaying, running laps before attempting the climb. Each step tires us for the fight to come. We must face him while still strong. That is why I must break the seals."

"I . . ." Nynaeve said. "I think I actually believe you." She was surprised to realize it.

"Do you, Nynaeve?" he asked, sounding oddly relieved. "Do you really?"

"I do."

"Then try to convince Egwene. She will stop me, if she can."

You are correct. Though I added the first one just because in my search I found it first, and it's interesting that Nynaeve saw Egwene's point originally too. But it's still completely unreasonable despite the fact that Nynaeve, Elayne, and the Wise Ones all agreed with Egwene when they were first told?

And the of course Nynaeve very well could have been Ta'veren influenced. I mean it's almost silly of Rand to have appeared "oddly relieved". You'd think he'd wonder the same thing, he knows what he does to people.

And if Rand himself is oddly relieved, the man who supposedly knows that he's right can't trust himself completely, why should Egwene be expected to?

Thanks suttree, I do enjoy this thread, good posts all round for the most part anyway.

 

 

 

I think this shows that she knows she has no part in the actual sealing of the bore. She knows her job will be to save as many people as she can, and rebuild afterwards.

 

 

 

this is the part I disagree with as we know since first book she is going to be one of the people who are going to be present at the sealing of the bore. There was a MIN's viewing to this effect. As an aside Barid you are such a nice person and I respect you immensely for your niceness and positive outlook but if you are trying to sell me eggy ? I am not buying

 

I doubt you will change your mind, no matter what happens, even if she throws herself at Rand's feet and begs his forgiveness, it is not one of my priorities to convince you.

 

I don't really mind if anyone actually buys it, I am just presenting my opinion.

 

I don't see why it is "selling" Egwene? Most of what I said (most) just states that there is a perfectly reasonable explanation for her actions.

 

As for the "evidence", well, I would hardly say that really affects anything in my statement, but perhaps I should rephrase it to make it clearer.

 

Egwene knows that she cannot understand or find out how to re-seal the bore. Or, she doesn't think so. It is something virtually impossible for her to contemplate, let alone solve. Now, as for her not setting people to research, that is another matter, something which we do not have enough information on.

 

The quote, as supplied, says nothing about sealing the bore. This could refer to any number of things as explored. Personally, I agree with Edynol that this refers to TG in general.

 

Assuming you are correct and that Egwene will be present at the actual re-sealing, it still does not actually refute anything I have said.

 

1."We all know". This is the main problem. Egwene does not have access to the novels, nor does she know everything that happens. Has SHE heard this vision? (honestly, I can't remember )

2. If she did, did she interpret it the same way you did?

3. Does she even remember?

4. Being "present" does not mean she needs any actual knowledge or idea of what she is doing.

 

On a related note, but not actually a reply to this comment, here is a quote that is interesting.

 

 

 

Towers of Midnight: Chapter Three: The Amyrlin's Anger

 

Light, she thought. I am wrong. I can't think of him only as the Dragon Reborn. I am here for a reason. He's here for a reason. To me, he must be Rand. Because Rand can be trusted, while the Dragon Reborn must be feared.

.......

Solid, straightforward. The type of man you could trust with anything.

 

Bold is of course mine.

 

It helps with my assessment of the situation. Now, as we know, when Rand says he is going to break the seals, this type of thinking goes out the window, as it would, she would be damn shocked.

My point is, when the shock has worn off, Rand's Ta'veren effect isn't pulling at her, and she is not facing off with the Dragon Reborn in front of the Hall of the Tower, she would have time to think.

 

She is already halfway towards realising what Rand is about. They are both there for a reason. She has to trust Rand. You could trust him with anything.

 

These thoughts reflect my theory, once she had time to think about it, these thoughts come back and putting 2 and 2 together....

While I agree with just about everything here. I'm not convinced she'll change her position until she's given more of a reason to do so. And that will be up to Rand. Of course, we're assuming he wants her to change her position... I believe he only asked Nynaeve to temper her temper, not to change her mind.

What is harder to stomache is their sudden abilities in more mundane areas. The notion that Egwene would suddenly be such an able politician (and strategist, and logician, and lawyer) as to be able to easily best women who have studied those areas for hundreds of years requires just too much of a suspension of disbelief, for me.

 

I agree. Same with Perrin and his military planning, out scheming Queens like Alliandre, being a better warrior than Aiel etc. I know Faile helped a bit but the same could be said for Siuan about Egwene. The whole thing just breaks down when looked at closely.

Perrin and his Axe wielding is a FAR more egregious than anything Egwene was "suddenly" able to do. But as Suttree said, it's pretty common across the board in varying magnitudes, similar to the seemingly-stupid enemies criticism. Just seems that when it comes to Egwene, nothing can be overlooked the way it is for every other character.

I just don't know what she did to you people to deserve such unfair treatment =( I mean.. besides being an ambitious, capable, and independent female character *pushes randsc's big red button*

With respect to your marry-sue reason. As pointed out, just about all the bad guys are pretty much retarded and allow all the heroes to win pretty easily. That hardly an issue that stains one character. There are whole threads about it. The difference is that Egwene's "enemies" through much of the books are other Aes Sedai.

my problem with Egwenes enemy is that she uses 'presumed' authority to take out masaana, which is completely rediculous in my books. Also for all the buildup about how the collar effects her (mentally), I find it strange that she nearly instantly becomes calm and composed when one is put on her.

See Randsc, this is the type of stuff I go off against.

First, regarding how Egwene "nearly instantly becomes calm". I think you need to read it again... I'll help...

Egwene barely noticed. She stood, stiff, a tide of panicked thoughts flooding her mind. She was trapped again! She could not stand it. She would die before she allowed this to happen. Images flashed in her head. Trapped in a room, unable to move more than a few feet without being overcome by the a'dam. Treated like an animal, a creeping sense that she would eventually break, would eventually become exactly what they wanted her to be.

Oh, Light. She could not suffer this again. Not this.

 

"Tell those above to withdraw," Mesaana was saying to Alviarin, her voice calm. Egwene barely registered the words. "Fools they are, and their showing here was pathetic. Punishments will be administered."

 

This was how Moghedien had been captured by Nynaeve and Elayne. She was kept captive, forced to do as they demanded. Egwene would suffer the same! Indeed, Mesaana would probably use Compulsion on her. The White Tower would be fully in the hands of the Forsaken.

The emotions welled up. Egwene found herself clawing at the collar, which got a look of amusement from Mesaana as Alviarin vanished to relay her order.

This could not be happening. It was a nightmare. A—

You are Aes Sedai. A quiet piece of her whispered the words, yet for all their softness, they were strong. And they were deep within her. The voice was deeper than the terror and fear.

 

"Now," Mesaana said. "We will speak of the dreamspike. Where might I find it?"

An Aes Sedai is calmness, an Aes Sedai is control, regardless of the situation. Egwene lowered her hands from the collar. She had not gone through the testing, and she had not planned to. But if she had, what if she had been

forced to face a situation like this? Would she have broken? Proven herself unworthy of the mantle she claimed to carry?

"Not speaking, I see," Mesaana said. "Well, that can be changed. These a'dam. Such lovely devices. Semirhage was so delightfully wonderful in bringing them to my attention, even if she did so accidentally. Pity she died before I could place one on her neck."

Pain shot through Egwene's body, like fire beneath her skin. Her eyes watered from it.

But she had suffered pain before, and laughed while being beaten. She had been captive before, in the White Tower itself, and captivity had not stopped her.

But this is different! The larger part of her was terrified. This is the a'dam! I cannot withstand it!

An Aes Sedai must, the quiet piece of her replied. An Aes Sedai can suffer all things, for only then can she be truly a servant of all.

"Now," Mesaana said. "Tell me where you have hidden the device."

Egwene controlled her fear. It was not easy. Light, but it was hard! But she did it. Her face became calm. She defied the a'dam by not giving it power over her.

Mesaana hesitated, frowning. She shook the leash, and more pain flooded Egwene.

She made it vanish. "It occurs to me, Mesaana," Egwene said calmly, "that Moghedien made a mistake. She accepted the a'dam!'

"What are you—"

"In this place, an a'dam is as meaningless as the weaves it prevents," Egwene said. "It is only a piece of metal. And it only will stop you if you accept that it will." The a'dam unlocked and fell free of her neck.

So you've got the freakout and the clawing at the neck, which is actually pretty pronounced. There's a bit of conversation going on while she's doing it too, so you can't claim that it's just a very condensed in-head thought process. Alviarin even smugly enjoys it for a moment. And notice Egwene stops freaking after saying "nightmare", I took as she accidentally reminding herself where she was, and that she could, as she ultimately does, control this situation if she can be calm. And then she realizes she MUST be calm or she doesn't have a right to call herself Aes Sedai. So the two main things she's been training for through most of the series ultimately allows her to overcome her Achilles heel. That's kinda what character development is about.

Now, as for her 'presumed' authority... well we need to read a bit more of ToM to remind us of how that went.

Mesaana glanced at it as it dropped to the ground with a metallic ring. Her face grew still, then cold as she looked up at Egwene. Impressively, she did not panic. She folded her arms, eyes impassive. "So, you have practiced here."

Egwene met her gaze.

You are still a child," Mesaana said. "You think that you can best me? have walked in Tel'aran'rhiod longer than you can imagine. You are what, twenty years old?"

I am the Amyrlin," Egwene said. "An Amyrlin to children."

An Amyrlin to a Tower that has stood for thousands of years," Egwene said. Thousands of years of trouble and chaos. Yet most of your life, you

lived in a time of peace, not strife. Curious, that you should think yourself so strong when much of your life was so easy."

"Easy?" Mesaana said. "You know nothing."

Neither broke her gaze. Egwene felt something press against her as it had before. Mesaana's will, demanding her subservience, her supplication. An attempt to use Tel'aran'rhiod to change the very way that Egwene thought.

Mesaana was strong. But strength in this place was a matter of perspective. Mesaana's will pressed against her. But Egwene had defeated the a'dam. She could resist this.

The lines I highlighted are particularly important. Note what Mesaana is actually trying to do. And then note how Egwene describes the problem with that particular tactic.

"You will bend," Mesaana said quietly.

"You are mistaken," Egwene replied, voice tense. "This is not about me, Egwene al'Vere is a child. But the Amyrlin is not. I may be young, but the Seat is ancient."

 

Neither woman looked away. Egwene began to push back, to demand that Mesaana bow before her, before the Amyrlin. The air began to feel heavy around them, and when Egwene breathed it in, it seemed thick somehow.

"Age is irrelevant," Egwene said. "To an extent, even experience is irrelevant. This place is about what a person is. The Amyrlin is the White Tower, and the White Tower will not bend. It defies you, Mesaana, and your lies."

Two women. Gazes matched. Egwene stopped breathing. She did not need to breathe. All was focused on Mesaana. Sweat trickled down Egwenes temples, every muscle in her body tense as she pushed back against Mesaana's will.

And Egwene knew that this woman, this creature, was an insignificant insect shoving against an enormous mountain. That mountain would not move. Indeed, shove against it too hard, and . . .

Something snapped, softly, in the room.

Egwene changes the perspective of herself in TAR... this isn't about her making a bunch of grandiose statements and pumping her own sense of self up so much that she wins. It's about changing TAR so that that what she says becomes true. Once it solidified, that she was not Egwene, but more a concept, a history, and an idea... well then Mesaana's pressures were, as described, like pushing a mountain, and she snapped.

Otherwise why would she have been wasting energy talking out loud if she was just voicing her own thoughts to convince herself of something? That would make no sense. She had to voice it so she could also "convince" Mesaana, so that what Mesaana was pushing so hard to do, became impossible.

I think some people think that this would have worked outside TAR too... that Mesaana was trying to compel Egwene and Egwene pumped up her own willpower by claiming the authority of the whole history of the tower or some such silliness. No. She used TAR to effectively turn herself into the idea of the Amyrlin seat, the same way should could turn herself into a dog or a cat had she wanted.

I suspect it may have also worked if she had made herself an ancient boulder, "Standing for millions of years, remaining resolute and strong". But Amyrlin is an easier sell, given she actually is and that was obviously hard enough to do.

That would be fine. Rand, in particular, is clearly going to die. And I don't know that we need happy endings for all. This is the difference between people like you and Kael and most of the rest of us. You're so invested with your love for a particular character that you will only be satisfied by that character's complete triumph and universal acknowledgement of her awesomeness. Nynaeve happens to be my favorite character currently, but if she dies, so be it.

Wait what? I could have swore I JUST wrote out a scenario where Egwene's faults blind her from seeing the truth and she stumbles into a stupid decision and ultimately ends up failing and possibly bringing the white tower down with her...

In so far as the story goes, I don't really agree. WOT is already too black and white. It would be better if Egwene formed a 3rd faction and opposed Rand, even if she was wrong. Maybe Rand allies first with the seanchan, Egwene can't stomach that and she's blinded in all other things by her past with them. That would be nifty and still effectively make her a "Bad guy" while not just making her another DO minion. Elaida style I guess.

There it is! Maybe you should actually read my posts randsc before you jump to conclusions. I also have no issues with her dying. I think dying would be less horrible than falling as Elaida did... but if it's reasonable and makes the story good. I'm all for it.

The problem is, you're not reasonable. You're so hate blind you leap into every Egwene thread in order to knock her down and anyone who supports her. I don't go after people who dislike egwene, I go after the reasons. I can't speak for Elan =)

With respect to your marry-sue reason. As pointed out, just about all the bad guys are pretty much retarded and allow all the heroes to win pretty easily. That hardly an issue that stains one character. There are whole threads about it. The difference is that Egwene's "enemies" through much of the books are other Aes Sedai. But it's still effectively the same "problem" with Jordan's writing. Most of us just come to terms with it and take the story for what it is, instead of trying to use a fairly wide ranging issue to try and single out one character just because you can't actually find a real problem, but you have some visceral hate that you need to justify.

There are plenty of good reasons to dislike Egwene, and I don't require people love her at all. I just would like people to dislike her for REAL reasons. Not made up ones, or ones that apply to almost every character equally and therefore are a wash.

I think the majority have high hopes that she will come to an understanding and realise what needs to be done. When that happens, I for one will love her character. She has great potential at the moment, she is pretty bad ass already, but still has a ways to go yet.

This seems to suggest she's horribly off-track due to some fault of her own. If you're talking about the Seals, that's Rand's fault. And about the Seanchan, we don't know that she does have to put that aside. You can make that theory from what you know as a reader, but again, I'm not sure she has any reason to believe that herself, yet.

Thought this recent quote from BS would make Elan and Kael happy...

 

 

 

Brandon Sanderson

 

PRK (7 APRIL 2012)

 

Brandon tried to get moments for every character in A Memory of Light. Egwene is ready to be bad ass in the Last Battle; her character development is done.

Well, that paraphrasing feels rather Egwene biased lol. Did Brandon actually say "bad ass"? And what does "her character development is done" mean? That almost sounds like someone trying to appease a particular criticism. Dog whistle politics, so to speak. But yes, I like the sound of it anyway!

OK continuing the discussion here is what I think going to happen at FoM. Right when we are just about to have the big show down Between DR and the Amyrilin. someone is going to bring in the news that Andor is under attack. As soon as they are going to gather to go to Andor. Another mesage is going to come in that WT is under attack from Seanchan. Now question is and I am asking this question of both sides of divide. What will egwene do? Will she go and defend people from Trolloc cook pots or she will rush back to defend her precious WT. Screaming Preciousssss my precioussss.

 

AS Bey Bladers called it LET IT RIP

Well, in her Accepted's test Egwene was similarly forced to choose between Rand and the WT, and she chose both. So we already have some insight into how she would approach a situation like that. And it wouldn't be to just let one side down for the other as you seem to be baselessly suggesting in the way you played up the horror of cook pots and scoffed at the importance of the WT while pretending to pose a question.

Seriously, I could say "Will she defend a single city in a vast world of people or will she rush back to defend the only organization that has stood against the shadow for two thousand years." I think they call that push polling.

Most bad ass would be if she turned. Which would be consistent with the WoT-as-retelling-of-Authurian-legend theme. And would make her probably my favorite character. Which she currently...isn't, quite.

 

Don't think there is any chance it will happen but that would be fing awesome. Seriously would step things up big time.

Careful, they're trying to trick you into agreeing that she's so narcissistic and power hungry she's on the verge of pulling a Lanfear. So I highlighted the important part of your quote for you.

In so far as the story goes, I don't really agree. WOT is already too black and white. It would be better if Egwene formed a 3rd faction and opposed Rand, even if she was wrong. Maybe Rand allies first with the seanchan, Egwene can't stomach that and she's blinded in all other things by her past with them. That would be nifty and still effectively make her a "Bad guy" while not just making her another DO minion. Elaida style I guess.

I have never seen a grown man whinge and moan as much as perrin. 'Oh i dont want to be a leader waah, my beautiful faile, she's gone, the shaido took her waaah etc etc.

 

It was frankly nauseating to read

In fantasy, the main character's lust for power is pretty common place, so for Robert Jordan to write a character that is supposed to be so integral to the survival of the world to shy away from power is actually rather refreshing.

What? The reluctant hero/leader is one of the most overused tropes in fantasy, and Perrin's case is one of those in which this reluctance makes the least sense. He's basically beaten over the head that the Pattern itself has chosen him for it and it will be necessary for him to act in those capacities, everybody keeps telling him he's doing a great job, yet he still whines and whines and whines...

 

I'd say characters like Egwene and Elayne, who are openly ambitious and like to be leaders, yet are on the side of the Good and are presented (mostly) in positive light, are more refreshing.

cwbys21's assertion here blew my mind. I hunt through books to find a good story of an ambitious or at least capable/responsible heroes. They are incredibly rare in the fantasy genre. Though they make be becoming more common as we FINALLY get away from the Tolkien-esk stereotypical fantasy and branch out. I agree with Selig for the most part.

What may have made it a little more interesting, is if he had tested the pattern's limits. It's interesting that in the 2Rs he does almost nothing except reiterate the answers people bring to him, and they leave saying, "oh you're such a great leader!". In response, Perrin mopes around complaining. What would have been interested is if he tried doing something else. "Well, if I have to lead then I'll do it on my own terms" type thing. Maybe get frustrated at one point and purposely demand a bad decision and have the pattern fix it for him and still end up giving him the credit. Then he'd have a real reason to be fatalistically depressed. But the crybaby attitude is infuriating.

see I again wonder if we are all reading the same books. One of the main reason people have always hated Egwene is due to her sweeping statements and how often she backs out of it. I can tell innumerable incidents where she said something and than backed out at a later stage. This is looking more and more like one more incident where she will have to eat her words. I maintain that we hate Egwene is one of the reasons we love this series. Haven't you ever known a person who is a good person basically, he or she will help those who needs help but you just can't stand being near that person. It has happened to me. As for Rand I vowed that I am not going to comment on people who are going to compare Rand with Egwene. I do not know how many of you are married but whenever me and my wife are fighting and she does not have anything to say she is going to start on something totally different that had no bearing on the reason we were fighting for. You people are doing something similar. I think Cadusane says it to borderlanders "If you put a burden of an entire age on a man and then something about knocking down the wall when reconstructing" Again If someone is kind enough to give the exact quote. I am asking this question of all of you and if you have any guts please do answer do any of you SERIOUSLY think that Egwene has faced or done even anything remotely close to what Rand had to face and do?

You think running the White Tower, having barely left your teens, and with a minute amount of trianing/experience is a walk in the park? And do you not think Egwene has, rightly or wrongly, taken on much of Rand's burden to herself? Whether proper or not, she most certainly believes the WT is important to the last battle, or at least keeping people together in the aftermath, and that is certainly not a small task either.

Dismissing Egwene as just some spoiled girl who can't be compared to Rand would be like me saying Rand has spent most of the books either hiding from his enemies or being pampered in palaces and manor homes, and that's not nearly as difficult as fighting a civil war inside the WT, mending it, and building it back to splendor. The simplification is true, but it misses Rand's real challenges completely. Just as you've abstracted out Egwene's.

I'm not saying they're equal, but the both have enormous pressure. So you can't suggest that Egwene has no excuses for anything while Rand can get away with anything and still be loved for it. Which it seems you were trying to do.

@Master Ablar: Egwene needs to plan to oppose him. She cannot show up to FOM having done nothing and not be prepaired to stop him if he does turn out to be insane. And she cannot second guess herself about every decision. If it becomes obvious that Rand is right and she is wrong, and she still sticks to her opposition, I will join you in condemning her. But for now, she's on the reasonable and responsible track.

You seem to suggest there's some middle ground she should be on, that she should sit on the fence and do nothing until she has perfect information. Well that's not possible. He said he's going to break the seals at FOM, so she can't wait until then and not have a possible way to stop him. Thus... opposition plan is in motion. If Rand finally gives her something else to work with, then she can easily turn around and support him. She's not past some point of no return. She hasn't sent anyone to abduct him or anything like that. She's preparing for what she (reasonably and responsibility) believes is the most likely situation -- that he's on the wrong track.

Enter Nynaeve to convince her NOT to put any opposition plan in motion? Well there's no reason to put so much clout into what she says, particularly when she could be magically biased. Also, opposing Rand as far as Egwene plans to, is not going to hurt if it turns out to be unnecessary, as Suttree has pointed out. So again, it's really the only responsible path.

I think all you're asking for is some Egwene PoV, in her head, that goes something like this: "Rand could be correct in this, if he really does have a plan, but I have a responsibility to the Tower, to the world, to take the responsible path. And that wool headed sheep herder has given me no other option." Something like that?

I'm sorry it's not there, but it's strongly implied by her relatively weak plan to oppose him at FOM. There are things she could do right now if she planned to stop him without any further consideration. That's not happening. So there's no reason to assume the worst.

Actually, Rand says he will need "the women", not AS per say.

Not in this quote he doesn't:

"I'm going to need you, all of you," he continued. "I hope to the Light that this time, you will give me your support.

He says that to Egwene, which suggests quite strongly he means the female Aes Sedai. And since he says "this time" which is obviously a reference to LTT's campaign, he must mean the feamle Aes Sedai because they were the ones who denied him "last time". I'm sure other female channelers are also invited, but I suspect Rand knows Egwene will tie/is tying/has tied them to her.

...

Suttree answered some, I'll do the others or we'll spiral out of control here. Though particularly note his point about her planning for the more likely chance that Rand said something crazy, but still not actually committed to putting him in a box again or planning to collar him no matter what he says.

Egwene isn't refusing to consider it seriously because she thinks she's right and is just too stubborn to give it up. Perrin's "logic" is based on a blacksmithing logic... I doubt many channelers would consider that an apt analogy. Even if he's right, it's not really evidence, it's just a nifty similarity. So yes, Perrin has "Faith" that happens to be supported by his own limited experience.

Egwene is refusing to consider it seriously because the statement is ludicrous. "The world is flat." That's what Rand said. How many people do you think would agree with that when there's zero evidence? All he's got is testimony from two biased (magically or otherwise) parties.

Edit: Just to add more support to Egwene, Nyn and Perrin's "faith" was somewhat balanced by the shock and horror she saw when she told the Wise Ones. They clearly agreed with Egwene. So it's not like she's standing alone in this.

As for Rand's accomplishments. Many people might suggest his job isn't to do those things but to defeat the dark one. Even the good deeds could be seen as the Dragon meddling where he shouldn't be. Take Elayne's reaction about giving her the thrones for example. You and I know better, because we know Rand is working off cryptic guidance that Egwene is not privy too. Again, this comes down to the fact that we know more than she does. So, did she take a reasonable position based on what she could possibly know and what Rand was willing to tell her? Yes she did.

Look at it from the other side, if Egwene had simply gone along with Rand, based on faith or some long-ago teen romance, wouldn't that seem ridiculous? Just about everything from her perspective says that it's a bad plan and she has very little reason to think otherwise. So she plans to stop him if she can.

Rand knows it, he's apparently trying to use it to his advantage -- I don't see how you don't know it.

I suppose I should reserve ultimate judgement until I see Rand's motivations unfold completely, but any problems this causes from Egwene's side are completely Rand's doing.

 

In part yes, but Egwene is responsible for the problems her actions cause.

No, Rand is... because he caused them since her responses are understandable and predictable. The responsibility is on him. She may take responsibility because she doesn't know she was being manipulated, and I'm sure you'll all quote her on it if she does. But we know Rand is trying to puppet her, and the guy holding the strings is responsible for where the puppet goes.

Egwene has zero reason to trust him blindly, and more than one reason not to trust him at all, and I don't think he expects or wants her too.

 

And why not give him the benefit of the doubt? It's not like he's been an utter failure at his job so far

And how would she know that? All she sees is him taking over nations, some of which were, until recently, worse off for him having done it. I don't understand what obvious credit you think he has built up that gives him the clout to say something like "We need to break the seals" and to be taken seriously. Particularly since progressive insanity is presumed to be his ultimate fate. So no, she has zero reasons to give him THAT much leniency.

Likely, she's dancing to his tune just as he wants, for whatever reason, and therefore she can't be blamed for it.

 

So because Rand expects her to act in a certain manner, she can't be blammed if that manner of acting is foolish? To me it just means he knows her well. Whether he's right in making her dance to his tune is what has yet to be determined.

If she were acting foolish, I would agree with you. But she's acting predictably and reasonably, like any sane, non-flighty, person would in a her situation. And in that case, any "damage" that might result is Rand's doing. He's not exploiting a flaw in her, he's using a reasonable and predictable response to his advantage. That just makes him a jerk.

And don't bring up that Nynaeve BS about, "but Nynaeve told her he was cool!" Egwene's dismissal of that as potential ta'veren influence is completely justified.

 

Potential being the keyword here. Do you think dismissing something entirely just because there's a possibility that it was caused by his taveren influence is a very smart move by Egwene.

I don't budget winning the lottery into my personal finances. It would be foolish to factor that, and every other minutely possible happenstance, into a budget or plan. They are things that are effectively not possible. And really, to make the analogy fit, it's more like saying "You have to decide if you'll win or not and write 1 budget/plan"." Well you're certainly not going to write up a budget on the assumption that you'll win the lottery, even if the chance is there.

So yes, I think dismissing something that is almost akin to declaring "the world is flat", which has numerous other explanations like: rand is crazy, and Nynaeve is under ta'veren influence, is a pretty reasonable and responsible position.

There's no option here to "wait and see" or "let him gather more proof/evidence". She has to decide if she'll let him or if she'll try to stop him. And given the extreme ludicrousness of the statement, and the alternate explanations for the evidence, the ONLY responsible choice is to stand against him. Unless, of course, you have "faith". Perrin has faith, Nynaeve has faith. Egwene has no reason to have that kind of faith.

I'm glad you like Rand so much that you think everyone should have that kind of faith in him, but not having it isn't a character flaw. If anything, it's a character strength.