And I wouldn't mind seeing more criticisms along the lines of - "The trials the characters face need to have more of an impact. Rand doesn't even care that he lost a hand so its not really a big deal." Instead all you hear is "People NEED to DIE!!" As if characters dying instantly increases the quality of the story being told.

 

I'm not saying that characters shouldn't ever die or that it can't be used to great effect in the story. I'm just saying its not the only way to create tension and its not some necessary and positive story telling device that will make a story always better.

 

Also, I like most of these characters. I'm not going to be particularly happy (not saying angry at the author, just sad) if characters I like end up dead. I'm certainly not going to root for it. To me the scene with Rand almost killing Min was just as effective in creating tension and a sense of danger as someone dying would have been.

+1 Mark, I really like your mentality towards this subject. I think there's been plenty of tension throughout the books, just different kinds than just expecting the character's deaths. The search for the bowl of winds, Graendal tryin to bag Perrin, Rand's kidnapping, Perrin rescuing Faile; I thought all of those had plenty of tension in them. Moiraine could have died earlier, and I guess it couldve helped raise the stakes a little bit maybe, but I felt just as much tension during her escape, and the way that whole scene and the foreshadowing leading up to it was written was excellent.

Just to be clear, I wasn't trying to say that everyone who has posted a negative comment about the WoT on this thread should be burned at the stake. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and there's no problem with pointing out some of the flaws of the WoT. I'm not under the impression that it is the be-all-end-all best fantasy series ever, or that Robert Jordan is the greatest fantasy author of all time. That doesn't mean that I'm not enthralled with how well Jordan crafted a world full of so many characters, plot arcs, and underlying themes. The only point I'm making is that there's way too many of these type of threads in this forum, whether it's Egwene-bashing or questioning RJ's entire vision of the series. We're just becoming conditioned to overlook the positive traits of something and move straight to trying to tear it down, a culture of cynics. Consider the main points people bring up when criticizing the WoT:

Abundance of Sexism/Misandry - It's true that RJ failed in creating a world where sexism doesn't exist, if that was his intent. It's true that some of his personal bias shows up, especially from certain character POV's (the female ones). It's true that practically every women in Randland thinks all men are wool-headed morons. And yet we overlook some HUGE features of this issue that make criticizing RJ really kind of pointless in a way. He created a world where the roles we're reversed from what we are generally used to seeing, and in which there was an ingrained reason for many individuals to develop a misandric attitude towards men (because male channelers were responsible for the Breaking. In doing so, he brought focus to an issue that countless fantasy authors ignore, and did it in such a polarizing manner that you have fans, both male and female, stirring the pot and discussing the matter in frank, open, and honest tones. This is such an immense boon for us because I don't know if you've noticed, but the roles men and women fill in today's society have been shifting for quite some time, and they haven't stopped yet. We need to examine the underlying issues that create friction between us in order to provide the lubrication that will help our civilization move forward. The worst kind of sexism or any other kind of discrimination you can have in a story is the kind that's ignored. It's also almost impossible to not let any personal bias show when creating a work of art on this scale, and I don't think people often think about the factors that might have influenced RJ, growing up in a different time, in completely different circumstances. It's easy to sit on your high horse and act enlightened, but imagine how hard it was for people in generations before ours to have to adapt to changing times when the changes spoke against everything they were ever taught or shown to be true.

Lack of character deaths/futility of the villains - I don't quite know what to say to this, because if you examine just about any epic fantasy, the protagonists have plot shields hovering around them every step of the way. It's generally understood that the good guys are going to win, you're just having to depend on suspension of disbelief to help you feel concerned for the world youre reading about. As for the Forsaken, I think it was the author's intent that the legends of each indivual Forsaken often outgrew the actual truth of who they really were: a bunch of scheming brats all trying to scrap for the DO's attention. Aknowledging this doesn't mean that if given the chance, any one of them would commit horrible atrocities to help advance their cause. Just because the good guys have always had a response doesn't mean the Forsaken are ineffectual (at least not all of them), it means that the threads of pattern have been woven a certain way, and those threads lead to life chugging ahead. What's wrong with a happy ending?

Length of series - This is only really a complaint you'll hear when a series hasn't finished yet. There have been plenty of series that went longer than RJ's and to me dragged on much more. Yet they're still enjoyable, and generally people don't complain about the length because they're usually aware of how many books there are in the series. Fans of this series started to get anxious though, that this series possibly wouldn't get finished when it was apparant that RJ's health was declining, and this frustration translated to wanting to throw blame around for why it wasn't finished yet. I really have been more than irritated at the implications I've heard that Team Jordan was milking us for money, which doesn't even make any sense when you consider how successful sequels and WoT spinoff stories could have been. It's obvious to me that Jordan was an artisan, and cared deeply about the masterpiece he was putting together. To think that he would let that story be influenced by personal greed is just a shock to my senses.

Ugh can we ease up on the condescension just a tad?! Anyways I don't even know why I'm posting in this thread, this site's purpose is for fans of the world RJ created to gather and share their enjoyment of one of the best epic fantasy series I've ever read, and discuss possible theories and whatnot. And yet, more threads are devoted to what's wrong with the series than most topics I've seen addressed. If there's so much wrong with this series, why even discuss it and criticize it when you can move on to the next book/series? It's not like anyone is paying you for your flaming criticisms.

Not to mention the fact that bragging about an average of 33 books read each year is rather sad. There were times in my life when I read several a week; I'm still at more than 1 a week, even with a stressful job and a family.

I once read 33 Goosebumps books in one year and I will brag day and night about that.

Dude, you need a reality check if you think that series is even 1/3 as popular and read by as many people as was the Lord of the Rings trilogy.

 

Didn't say anything of the sort. Just thought it was quite odd that you would use when it was published to make a conclusion on the "vast majority" not having read Gormenghast. Or even better questioning the quality of the work because you hadn't heard of it.

 

As for me I thought the first two books were quite well done...third not so much. His descriptive style along with dark, surrealist influences really make it unique.

 

So, you were one of the small percentage of fantasy readers that are still alive today whom have read Peake's books. Congrats.

As to why I think I am qualified to determine whether or not a series is better than the WOT? Well, because I have been reading fantasy books for 30 years.. and because I have read books from several other genres, then it is safe for me to believe that if I have not heard of a fantasy book series, then the probability is very high that it ain't as good as Robert Jordan's WOT series.

Not to embroil myself in this little spat, but omniscience isn't a byproduct of prolonged exposure. Even extremely credible experts in a field will still occassionally be caught off guard by the discovery of someone else new to his/her field. Also, popularity doesn't dictate quality of a work of art, and in fact attempting to create any system which can objectively quantify the level of quality of any work of art is an effort in futility. That's what makes appreciating and discussing art so much fun, it's meant to be subjective, and anyone can draw whatever conclusions they want as to whether they like it or not.

You know you've spent too much time on WoT when, after the shop assistant says to you "Im sorry, we have drawing pins, and safety pins, but not Dragon pins" you pause for a moment and say "Do you believe that I could kill you?"

Lord Drekka this had my sides hurt I was laughin so hard.

- When you google "Eye of the World movie news" several times a day

- When you get excited when a light turns red on you, that way you can read another paragraph

- When you imagine punishing your spouse for being haughty by holding her in the air in weaves of air

- When you wish you were in high school or a college creative writing class again just so you can write a report on the Wheel of Time...again

- When you've honestly attempted to picture the flame and the void while meditating (no joke, it's actually worked pretty well!)

- When you let your beard grow out just so you can pretend you're a wolfbrother, then feel ashamed that you haven't bought colored contacts yet

- When you ask someone reading another fantasy series if they've read WoT, and whether they say yes or no you immediately start talking about your favorite Forsaken

- When you pray nightly that December 21, 2012 is when the first person learns to channel and the Age of Legends can begin already

So Rand plans to rule through fear? Well, that has no chance of coming around to bite him in the arse. All the people sworn to Rand are people with their own minds, capable of forming their own opinions - they won't follow Rand just because they are sworn to him, not becuse he asks them nicely. If Egwene can convince them that Rand's plan puts the fate of the world in danger, do you really believe any of them will follow him? And remember, the car'a'carn is not a Wetlander king. The Aiel won't follow him just because. "Rand, you've destroyed the world." "I have toh."

Man that had me rolling "I have Toh"..... good to see another thread where I'm on the same side as you pretty much the whole time. I will say that even though it's not Egwene or Elayne's fault Caemlyn is being attacked, I still don't think gathering all of his armies to try and stop him makes any sense whatsoever. I get that she thinks she needs to convince him not to break the seals, but sacrificing soldiers who will fight in TG to do so? That I don't understand. I mean, why not just gather all his friends and the rulers from around the world? Why do you need their armies? And it's NOT just for intimidation because Egwene even says "I hope Rand doesn't force my hand" That's not really a criticism of the series, just an example of Egwene bein a bit mistaken about something.