dwn covered it pretty well.

It's funny, I remember when The Gathering Storm first came out, people cited that scene a lot as an example of Brandon "not getting Cadsuane right" but I think it was definitely a case of some people and thier tendency to allow thier attachment to Rand as the main character cloud thier idea of just what he is capable of.

He was high and half mad on the True Power....the reason that Cads was near speechless and said "yes" when Rand asked her if she beleived she would die if Rand willed it was because Rand believed it, and Cads beleived it, and it very well might have been true. But most importantly of all, Cads beleived it because at that moment, Rand wanted a reason to kill her. Why would an apology have been a bad idea? Well, just look at Tam! It's not like Rand had a particularly good reason to near balefire his own father either. If Cads had tried to apologize, in as much as Rand would have needed even a half coherent excuse to kill her, he would have seen it as her trying another angle to wiggle her way into his good graces.

Why has doing that become very hard work? Partly because Jordan has overplayed the "reluctant hero" bit, maybe the biggest fantasy cliche of all. And partly due to how he has portrayed all of the side characters. We are left, after twelve books, with very few characters to root for. At this point, for me, Furyk Karede is just about the only one who hasn't been a disappointment. The other characters read like a Who's Who of negative traits. Jordan has belabored everyone's shortcomings to the point that all of the characters have become tiresome. Even the heroes. Having faults, being human is fine. Being unremittingly selfish and stupid and childish isn't ( unless you're a Bad Guy, they're supposed to be hatefully selfish ).

I agree with you to a small degree about overstating the negatives and and ignorant behavior of characters. Rand, Perrin, Egwene, Elayne, and Nyn(though mostly trivial) can have annoying moments.

However, you are overexaggerating in this regard. Logain, Loiol, Dobraine, and Dyelin at the very least are examples of characters making selfless decisions for the good of everyone.

I really do agree with you about some things....but I still think you are dead wrong about Cads.

And as Yoniy0 says, would it have killed her to at least apologise for not securing the collar better, with Semi in the house? I know it may be true that no defences available to her would've been adequate, but dammit she could have just apologised. The fact is, not two days after realising her similarities to Semi - which would, you might think, encourage some deeper self-examination - she carries on regardless, no dent in her confidence visible at all.

Yes, it would have killed her to do that.

Rand wanted to kill Cadsuane at that moment. Whether it was the True Power clouding his mind, his pent up frustration at Cads, or his disgust with himself and general deadening due to what he had almost done to Min...he wanted an excuse to kill Cads. Her apologizing probably would have given him an excuse in that moment.

I don't get what you mean about similarities. Why should she alter her behavior? If you mean she should have seen that Semi could escape and devine where Cads had hidden an object that I don't beleive Semi should have even known she had....I don't think you can blame that on Cads. It seems like the only faults you guys can find with her is that she's not quite smart enough to anticipate every single action/reaction possible in the universe!

Oh, and if you mean that Cads should have changed her image because it was similiar to Semi's? Not at all. Everyone from teachers to the president to dictators use certain images of authority to lead. That doesn't mean just because one does something horrible with that ability another shouldn't use it for positive things.

I find myself having very contradictory thoughts on Caddy. Yes, she does *eventually* acknowledge that Nynaeve's not a teen having a tantrum. Ok, she knows lots about life, the universe and everything. Yes, there is a bloody good reason it felt so good when Tam stood up to her. She is in many ways, the epitomy of what's wrong with the AS as a whole. A petty dictator with a bit of power, usually surrounded by people with insufficient backbone to say No to her.

To all those who think Cads thrives on being "in control" and running things....why exactly did she turn down being a Sitter twice, and possibly Amyrlin-ship so she could go running around the land in her twilight years persuing the most dangerous men in the world?

The problem with Aes Sedai is ideas of superiority. Of trying to run the world that they never get out into.

Giving up that shot at power, to get your hands dirty doing something that isn't glamorous(and not really a mission of your Ajah to begin with) but is important and needs doing is not something that I consider to be the problem with Aes Sedai. If anything, it is just about a model example of how Aes Sedai would be better off.

A good post and good points Jillain. I actually find it a little offputting how often we see Aes Sedai's ages of 100+ are thrown out there and so many of them show little wisdom and understanding to go with that age. My current reread is reminding me why I like Cads so much. Everything she does is so clearly built on her long years of expirience.

It kind of makes me smirk that even with her PoV some people still think she acts the way she does because she has a big ego. The "legend" image and her attitude are simply tools in her arsenal. Unlike some Aes Sedai who we know literally have a "How dare you question me!" attitude in thier own minds when they come up against opposition, in Cads we see that her attitude is just a means to an end. She uses the image as a tool against others, she very pointedly does not "buy into the hype", as it were, in thinking about herself.

Her actions have been just short of complete and utter failure. All her game playing has done is soak up bandwidth that Rand needed to be using figuring out how to get the people of the world to work together to defeat the DO. The only time he makes any progress on fulfilling his destiny is when he is away from her, Cleansing excepted.

Or when she was there to save his bacon when he got himself sliced by Fain.

Or when she taught him why he led his forces to disaster trying to repeal the Seanchan in PoD.

Or when she saved him from disaster at the meeting with Semihrage.

Or when she found a way to reach him when he became a monster.

Were you the one that said 5 times in 6 books is a lot for her to impose her will? How about saving Rand's ass in every book she's been in?

I honestly don't see how and why people despute this anymore. Rand is not omnipotent. Hell, a lot of Rand's plans since LoC have been downright stupid, loony, or rediculously overconfident. What he wants to do, and how he choses to do it especially, or not always right. He needs a balancing force, and Cads method has worked....well.

All you Cadsuane apologists are forgetting one thing - Rand is the greatest ta'veren ever. The Wheel will give him what he needs to survive to make it to his pre-ordained destiny. Since he would have required an adequate guard force for the Cleanising the Wheel gave him one. Cadsuane didn't "choose" to be there, the Wheel chose her for that task.

And the Wheel chose to give him a strong, confident, competent woman that is willing to take chances to accomplish what needs to be done to balance out his erratic behavior. The question is, why are you so pissed at her about it....

Dislike? No I flat hate her after that little bit of sadism. Why? Because she begins from the standpoint that she must hurt him. She never once considers that there might be another, better way.

Have you ever had to live through a loved one having a serious ailment? The point is not that Cads is going to hurt Rand. She knows she has to hurt Rand. Not because she wants to, or because it gets her jollies off, but because Rand is in a place where there is no coming back from without pain. Anyone who thinks Rand at this point can see the end of the tunnel without going through hell doesn't know a damn thing. The point is that Cads shows the genuine compassion of wanting to help Rand by hurting him as little as possible. This shows that while she, like everyone, knows they have to use Rand to save the world, she cares about the man(and boy) underneath. Which, as I said, is more then all but a handful of characters in the series have shown.

*Sigh*

Some people just do not understand the subtleties of Cads.

It boggles my mind how some of you still act as thought Cads would have had a better time with Rand is she had sat him down and treated him like an equal.

You want to compare her to Moiraine, but somehow you ignore the fact that while Cads mission may be roughly simuliar to Moiraine's, she is dealing with a Rand that is litereally 5x as unstable, untrusting, and nearly insane.

The problem is that a lot of you seem to hold onto the understandable frustration from books 1-6 of Aes Sedai meddling in Rand's bussiness when he's doing(mostly) the correct, smart things. But that is NOT the Rand of 7-12. Cads is not an obstruction getting in Rand's way of doing things right. She is one of the few things keeping Rand weighted in reality from running off and getting himself killed because he's too arrogant, half crazy, or stubborn to realize he's had a bad idea(you know, like channeling enough of the Power to call the Forsaken from across the globe....with no backup).

This is NOT a case of Cads needing to sit down, and treat Rand like an equal, and they can hash things out and he'll listen to her. Thier relationship is more akin to a hostage situation or something. Cads has to apply roundabout ways of influencing him because a direct approach simply would not work. Period.

Anywho, just got done reading aCoS and as a big Cads fan it contains one of my favorite quotes. After Rand has been cut by Fain, they are rushing Rand back to Cairhrien, and Min just gave Cads the details of Rand's imprisionment and beatings in the box. While other sisters are being sick at the idea of Rand stilling sister when he escaped, Cads.....

And Cadsuane......Cadsuane touched Rand's pale face, brushed strands of hair from his forehead. "Do not be afraid boy," she said softly, "They made my task harder, and yours, but I will not hurt you more then I must

Not sure how anyone can really dislike Cads after that. Which is probably more genuinely compassionate for Rand then anything we've seen from anyone save Nyn or Min(and that includes Elayne or Avi!).