That's been the understanding, I assumed they came back, however it now begs the question, how did Maradon fall with 100 Ashaman? 

 

I think exhaustion is the only explanation. Dumai's Well was an all out assault to free Rand, not a prolonged defense. Channelers are highly effective, especially in the short term, but if you need them for a prolonged defense you're going to have to be rotating them, facing exhaustion, and attrition.

And not all Asha'man are as strong and talented as Rand or the named Asha'man. They can only do so much. I think Rand and the prominent Asha'man paint a distorted picture of how good they are in a fight. 

They are better than most at killing, but the Power of your average channeler, male or female, is not that great that 100 Asha'man would be able to hold back that amount of Shadowspawn. 

As Agitel said, Dumai's Wells was a unique situation, they only needed to kill with all their strength for a short amount of time against a fleeing foe with a fraction of the number. They didn't have to worry about anything but rescuing Rand. 

At Maradon, they weren't used just for killing. They were used for Healing, Travelling, scouting, relaying messages (via the beacons etc.) They were up against a force that outnumbered them vastly and were forced into a prolonged battle where they were on the defensive. The Shadowspawn were attacking, not fleeing like the Shaido, thus they had to protect themselves not just kill, which drains strength. 

I would say that I could agree that the Asha'man at Maradon didn't put up as much of a fight as you would expect, however, even if they had been written as good as realistically possible - without becoming totally overpowered - they still would have lost Maradon. 

Talk of trolling is a hard one to deal with. 

I have removed the reference, since calling someone a troll is against the rules. 

However, I am concerned about Suttree's comments, that trolling was admitted to. While accusing someone of trolling is not acceptable, neither is purposely trolling, it is antagonising and creates conflicts. If this has been admitted, I can't find much sympathy when others point it out. 

So my suggestions: 

Suttree: I would not accuse people of trolling via public boards, no matter the validity. If you suspect trolling, bring it to the moderators and it will be seen to. 

XXX47: I don't know the history, however, if Suttree is telling the truth, I advise that you make clear which posts are to be taken seriously, and which are less serious. It is unfair on others. They are unable to accuse people on public boards of trolling, however, this means that they have no idea whether to take you seriously or ignore you completely. It is not a position any user should be put in. All posts should be able to be taken seriously unless the purpose is clearly humorous or sarcastic. Obviously, misunderstandings and misinterpretations will occur, which cannot be helped. However, purposely deceiving other posters and inciting conflict is not acceptable. 

On to the topic, I think this better suits the "Post aMoL" thread anyway. This is about Egwene in aMoL, Egwene- being dead - is not a main factor in a debate over the future of Channelers. She is of course an influence, however, this thread is dedicated to Egwene specifically.   

Guys, this is not about whether Egwene is a good person or not. If it isn't relevant to her actions in aMoL, it should be taken to the nearest designated swamp, which you can find here: http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/78310-question-about-egwene-from-someone-only-on-book-5/

I'll quote yoniy0's post on the thread as to the reasons behind this: 

Japboix, I think the replies to this thread alone tell you the entire story. We have a standing rule that Egwene can only be discussed in this manner in a dedicated thread, because arguments about her have derailed many a thread (which tells you all you need to know, that there are passionate advocates for both opinions).

 

Since we don't currently have an active thread about Egwene, feel free to use this one to your hearts' content, everyone. Just do Japboix a favor and don't mention any spoilers, and don't let it devolve into a shouting match either, okay?

Soon enough you will get a aMoL spoiler thread where you can judge her character's merits and flaws, but for now, I would appreciate it if this topic was not derailed by Egwene love/hate. Many people here would like to discuss the particulars of Egwene's role in aMoL. 

Let's steer clear of commenting on the poster - whatever history there is. 

Lets keep to what has been posted in the topic. 

To clarify, I am open to the possibility of this being an addition, similar to Harriet killing Bela - but without any actual evidence despite a hunch and lack of foreshadowing, there is not much we can go on.

I would say that Egwene would be a topic that RJ left notes on. Specially if he intended her to live - I have a hard time believing he would leave her out of his notes- enough that the character could be killed by a substitute author. However, I don't mean to get into the debate further - I don't know what RJ has or hasn't left, so the point is moot until we get answers from someone. 

I only replied because a debate was forming around it. I don't mean to stop people from debating the topic - feel free to do so - however, I wanted to point out the futility of debate at this point. 

I was not meaning to dismiss your opinion - in fact I respect it in many regards, you are clearly an intelligent person. Perhaps I am being presumptuous here, and if so, I apologise for it - but I have seen many things like this descend into petty squabbling recently - again, I am not saying that this would have, it was a precaution. (Specifically revolving around "What RJ would have done were he alive") 

It is an interesting topic, and like I said in that thread, I can't forbid anyone from discussing it - but even if some day the answer is revealed, and you are proven correct, at this point, without further info, it is impossible to come to a conclusion on the topic. 

Although having written all that, hell, it hasn't stopped us in the past Basically, I wasn't trying to ruin the party, just point out that this could fast turn into a spiralling debate with no end.

Without any evidence to suggest so, saying that Brandon or Team Jordan decided to kill off one of the 5 major characters without or contray to RJ's notes is absurd.

There is no way RJ left Egwene's fate ambiguous enough to allow Team Jordan to take liberties with the character dying. 

They have changed many things, but the death of one of the main 5? There had better be a tonne of evidence to support it, or it just falls flat and seems like people being annoyed their favourite character was killed. 

Suttree-  Interesting indeed. There is more in Chapter 13: What Must Be Done. 

A hint at these things, and some well written foreshadowing for her death to come. 

Then Egwene returned to rupturing the earth. There was something energising about using raw power, sending weaves in their most basic forms. In that moment - maiming and destroying, bringing death upon the enemy - it felt as if she were one with the land itself. That she was doing the work it had longed for someone to do for so long. The Blight and the Shadowspawn it grew were a disease. An infection, Egwene - afire with the One Power, a blazing beacon of death and judgement - was the cauterizing flame that would bring healing to the land. 

As I look closer on my re-read, I see many small things that make it a huge improvement on ToM, and even tGS. For all his weakness still remains, Brandon did a lot of improvement in some ways. Unfortunately it isn't consistent as I would like, but it adds to the story. 

Also found another interesting piece about Perrin and his killing of Lanfear. It could obviously be a coincidence, but it would make a nice little bit of Foreshadowing. 

From the same chapter, Perrin's PoV talking about him entering TAR in the flesh: 

Women were alwaying trying to keep a man from doing what he must, as if worried he'd break his neck. 

First that Lanfear tried to make him kill Moiraine and Nynaeve - funnily enough, the two women he is thinking about - via Compulsion, but he worked through it "doing what he must", second obviously the reference of breaking her neck. 

Just on the Braem Wood Battle, it was actually 50 leagues distance, not 250 or 150. 

Even still, 50 leagues seems a long way, but thought it worth pointing out. 

Eh, Egwene was a hit and miss through the book. 

Her death was heroic and truly fitting end to a great woman. 

However, she was all over the place in the rest of the book, you couldn't determine what she was going to do or say, she was so inconsistent. Her research and words to Elayne about the Seals were totally thrown out the window in the Dragon's Farce. 

Her and Rand both were so ridiculous in that scene, she changed completely and acted like a total idiot, all her development thrown out the window. First she goes in and intends to have the White Tower in control of the Last Battle (inconsistent in itself) then when Rand says the Amyrlin is no good to lead, she doesn't say a thing. Not to mention that bloody farce of a paragraph when she suggests Rand takes the "safe" option and gets saidin tainted again! Of course, she is not doing what Rand says, but there is no way I am buying Egwene would suggest that, no matter the reasons. Since when has she ever shirked from a difficult task. Rand's reaction to it was similarly ridiculous, but at least understandable in the slightest, it was so out of character that it almost seemed like a reasonable conclusion for Rand. 

Her meeting with Tuon was good for her, but it made Tuon out to be a total idiot - which she is most definitely not, whatever else you may call her. Egwene was awesome, but unfortunately it required replacing Tuon with Mesaana. 

I was angry that Gawyn did that too her, she deserved so much more, and while she did hold the world together, dying well, perhaps it was even needed to keep the world alive, it was annoying nonetheless, that Gawyn practically killed her. 

Then the random flip with the Seals was ridiculous. It reminds me off the cliche of a villain "righting all their wrongs" on their deathbed. It was good that she came to the conclusion, but poorly done. She should have slowly changed her mind, seeing the horrors of the Last Battle, and the balefire, slowly realise that it was necessary. 

So while I admire her heroic end, and her as a character, the inconsistencies really  took away from her death, I SHOULD have felt more sorrow, but it was just so strange that I can only do it in hindsight. 

excellent to see this has finally been posted, like I said before, I am a fan. The Sea Folk Parasol really got me. It is such a strange thing. 

The Finns refer to themselves as the "Warriors of Final Regret". 

Their blood looks and sounds like people screaming. 

Hall of Mourning is a good name for the home of the Warriors of Final Regret." 

 

Well it's anyone's guess what the difference means. If that is the case, then it is holding Saidar that buffers them against pain. 

 

 

I thought holding the Power increases awareness of pain.

 

Rand ignores the pain when in the box through the void, I'm sure it's when the void shatters that he feels more pain, although since the two are related it could be saidin.  But when in the Tower Eg...

 

Knife of Dreams - Honey in the Tea

 

 

 Opening herself to the Source, Egwene embraced saidar, let it rush into her. The forkroot allowed only a trickle, a thread where she was accustomed to torrents, yet it was the Power, and trickle or no, it brought all of the life and joy of saidar, all the heightened awareness of herself and the room around her. Awareness of herself meant her smarting bottom suddenly felt freshly slippered again, but she did not shift. Breathe in the pain. She could smell the faint aroma of soap from the novices’ morning wash, see a tiny vein pulsing on Idrelle’s forehead.

 

 

That is a good quote, I was most likely mistaken on this it seems. 

I was angling more about pain threshold type thing, that they could take more when holding the Power (even if they are aware of it). That they can stay conscious and active for longer than another person would do. 

However, the pain thing it seems I was wrong about. 

Well it's anyone's guess what the difference means. If that is the case, then it is holding Saidar that buffers them against pain. 

Ok, I'll just continue what we we discussing in my other post instead of editing, so you get a notification that I have replied. 

Here is the description for embracing saidar from tGH 12: Woven in the Pattern 

Now, you must empty yourself. Empty your thoughts. There is only one thing in your mind. The bud of a flower. Only that. Only the bud. You can see it in every detail. You can smell it. You can feel it. Every vein of the leaf, every curve of every petal. You can feel the sap pulsing. Feel it. Know it. Be it. You and the bud are the same. You are one. You are the bud. 

Bold is mine to emphasise the point. Lanfear calls it the Oneness. Which is exactly what this is describing. Instead of a flame of course, it is a flower, but the results are the same whatever you envision, it doesn't have to be a flame. 

Here is a description of Rand and the Void in tGH 1: the Flame of Tar Valon

As he had been taught, Rand formed a single flame in his mind and concentrated on it, tried to feed all emotion and passion into it, to form a void within himself, with even thought outside. Emptiness came. As too often the case of late, it was not a perfect emptiness; the flame still remained, or some sense of light sending ripples through the stillness. But it was enough, barely. The cool peace of the void crept over him, and he was one with the practise sword, with the smooth stones under his boots, even with Lan. All was one. 

The similarities between the two make them, if not exactly the same, at least the same type of technique with the same effects. Both have the main traits of calm, Oneness and a separation from the outside world, an utter focus. 

 

Egwene was wrong, it was Verin's protection that contained the Dagger. A channeler can be corrupted by the Dagger.

 

That was not my point. My point is that Egwene say she is never getting sick, as in she could teat sick people back home in her village all day and never get sick, that she had an immunity, that was my point, off course she can be corrupted by the dagger.

 

Perhaps it was worded poorly. The act of Channelling doesn't do anything, but holding the Power makes it easier to ignore wounds. It may be that it is because the Void is required to embrace/seize saidar/saidin and that is it, but there is a correlation between pain tolerance and holding the Power.

 

Interesting, do you have any quotes about this from the books? For men yes they need something like the void, but women just need concentration and the ability to surrender the the Power.

 

1. As I mentioned in my first post, it was likely that they have a better resistance. Resistance however, does not necessarily mean immunity. I think it is a stretch to say they are immune to disease altogether. 

Also, while Egwene did say that, Nynaeve also recalls healing Egwene when she got sick from Breakbone fever in (talking to Moiraine about channelling) so Egwene certainly can get sick. Unless you mean after they start to channel, in which case there is little evidence to show it either way. It might be worth mentioning that they are not resistant to alcohol poisoning

2. 

Also, women can ignore the pain while holding the Source like men. So it is either a product of holding the Power, or the Void/Oneness. 

Edit: Hold up on the second Point, I will read up a bit on it and get back later, may revise my point.

I know it is mentioned a few times in the books about channelers not getting sick but I do not remember exactly where. I do remember however that Egwene at one point say that she never got sick herself and she is then warned that her immunity would not protect her from Matt's dagger.

 

 

3. While holding the Power, they have a greater tolerance to pain and wounds, they can remain conscious or moving for longer than one without the Power. However, the injuries themselves don't go away or the effects slow down, and once the Power is released, it affects them just like any other person.

 

They have greater pain tolerance when holding the Power? Are you sure I can not remember this. Granted Aes Sedai learn how to remain focused even when in physical discomfort and Rand have his flame and the void which he use to focus on channeling which will reduce how much one experience of physical discomfort, but I can not remember it mentioned that channeling itself makes someone more resistant to pain or that it give them more endurance when wounded, but I can be mistaken here.

Egwene was wrong, it was Verin's protection that contained the Dagger. A channeler can be corrupted by the Dagger. 

Perhaps it was worded poorly. The act of Channelling doesn't do anything, but holding the Power makes it easier to ignore wounds. It may be that it is because the Void is required to embrace/seize saidar/saidin and that is it, but there is a correlation between pain tolerance and holding the Power. 

I would think Galad would be White Ajah, logical and "the right thing to do" to the core. 

 

A Well? Maybe, but I don't think so. Certainly not if one was Severed.

EDIT3: RJ confirmed that one could.

 

I forgot to ask the follow up question to your reply, is there any confirmation one way or another if a severed channeler could use a well?

 

Now fo an unrelated question, we know that channelers have some protection against illness, but is it a protection or is it an immunity? If you place channeler A naked in the snow for some hours, work them to death, give them poor food and then place them in a house with allot of sick people just to go to the extreme can they get ill, or are they completely immune due being channelers. Also do this protection or immunity have anything to do with how much they channel? Will an Aes Sedai who uses the Power every day, several times a day get more protection against illness than a male channeler like Owyn who tries to channel only when he absolutely need to?

 

Well, taking your example, they are not immune to everything. First of all, they would die from exposure just like anyone else (see Aviendha/Rand's little trip to Seanchan). Give them poor food and they will be just as malnourished as anyone (although they may be sustained longer, I don't see any indication of that being the case). Illness is not something we see often in WoT, so it is hard to judge. I can't recall any instances where we have learned of an immunity or greater resistance, but neither have I seen any evidence to the contrary. 

Some indirect indications though would suggest that they have greater immunity to disease and sickness. 

1. They live several times longer than the average person and age much much slower. This would indicate a much better functioning body than the average person. I would imagine that would include the immune system also. 

2. While holding the Power, they have heightened senses and awareness, which again suggests a higher level of body functioning, which may include the immune system. 

3. While holding the Power, they have a greater tolerance to pain and wounds, they can remain conscious or moving for longer than one without the Power. However, the injuries themselves don't go away or the effects slow down, and once the Power is released, it affects them just like any other person. 

4. While pregnancy isn't a sickness, it involves certain qualities of sickness, which Channelling negates, which would suggest a greater resistance to being ill. 

In counterpoint, their bodies are just as fragile as any. It is no harder to strike off their head than a normal person, they aren't any physically stronger than the normal person. They still suffer from the elements and need food and water like any person to survive. 

In all though, I think they DO have a greater resistance to sickness and disease, however, I would hesitate to say they have an immunity to it altogether. 

On the point of sickness however, with Healing, sickness is pretty much a non-existent thing when there are Aes Sedai involved. They can heal anything and everything save death (and some supernatural things like tainted blades etc...) so if they are skilled enough, anything short of death (and the aforementioned exceptions) would be healed. In the White Tower and Tar Valon, sickness is virtually unheard of, so we don't really have an accurate indication of resistance to disease. We also don't know much about the AS outside the Tower, although none seem to grow sick and die, so that may be another point in their favour. 

Edit: Re: Wells 

INTERVIEW: Oct 11th, 2005

KOD Signing Report - Pary (Paraphrased)

QUESTION

Someone asked if someone who was stilled can use a Well.

ROBERT JORDAN

No.

 

My own opinion is that it rules out Thom from being able to learn to channel at all, however, the quotes don't exactly rule it out. They just say that Thom cannot and has not been channelling.

A learner would show no signs of being able to channel, so it's technically possible.

The Shield on Asmodean wasn't your typical Shield. It was different. He could still channel, she just reduced his access. It's a different thing altogether, although I don't know the specifics of it.

Just from RJ, he said that Mat cannot learn to Channel. I can't recall if he said the same about Perrin.

He emphatically said that Thom could not channel. However, the caveat to that is that it can be interpreted to mean that he can't channel NOW, and it is possible that he could learn.

Galad and Gawyn I can't recall a definitive answer, however, when someone asked the question about Galad, Brandon said that plotlines will be tied up in the last 3 books, not new ones created. Which can be interpreted how you will. It could be seen as Brandon saying "not gonna happen this late in the game." You could also interpret it as it was always Galad's plotline to channel, it would certainly make sense, having a Whitecloak leader able to channel would do a lot plot-wise. However, after ToM, I would have to say it was a no. Similar with Thom, I think it is too late in the game, but the possibilities are open, apart from Mat.

Ahh thanks. I had wondered what the ratio was. I was all confused about it because of Nynaeve's surprise at the Kinswoman being able to hold her Shield. I didn't think that she was particularly weak, but I read back and it appears that she was quite weak.

Well, that makes that matter simple then. It also begs the question, how did Moggy escape?

Being Shielded also Shields you from the use of True Power as per RJ:

INTERVIEW: Jul 19th, 2005

TOR Questions of the Week Part III (Verbatim)

Shielding against the One Power will indeed stop someone from reaching for the True Power.

While I typed this, I came to the conclusion that she just did what Rand did with a tied off shield when he escaped in LoC.

The Nynaeve/Moggy match was much closer. It is possible to Shield someone who is stronger than you if you use the right method. However, I believe there is a limit.

Moggy/Nynaeve were evenly matched, so either one could have Shielded the other.

In Rand's case, he is insanely strong compared to Verin and Alanna (not linked) that he was too strong that the effort was worthless.

To use an analogy, Nynaeve/Moggy was like two swordsmen in battle, either one has the chance of winning. With Rand, it was like they were attacking him with a rubber duck.

As to why Moggy didn't break free, that's a different question. Well, actually, she did eventually break free, as she disappeared. But I can only think of a few reasons why she may not have tried to immediately. a) she was too stunned because of her overconfidence b) she is a coward, like we see when she is leashed in TAR. She could have escaped, but her cowardly nature made it impossible. She was too busy being scared out of her mind to think of it.

All that the text has said is that 13 of the weakest Aes Sedai match even the strongest male channeller unaided. Which is reasonable. 13 weak Aes Sedai add up to 1 strong man, simple enough. Everyone who has said this mentions nothing about sa/angreal, and the Aes Sedai don't even know of male angreal (besides callandor which was virtually non-existent until Rand took it)

It is also established that the more Power one is holding, the harder it is to Shield them. Example, Rand easily Shielded Elayne and Egwene, despite them holding the power because of the overwhelming strength difference at the time. Several OP battles involved this, I think it is common enough knowledge not to have to point to other specific references. Again, reasonable conclusion.

Sa'/angreal increase the amount of Power one is able to draw upon. The Fat Man allowed Rand to overpower Asmodean when they grappled over the Chodean Kal. Rand, with the Chodean Kal, could Shield 1000 Aes Sedai with ease because he held so much of the OP.

The reasonable conclusion, along with Yoniy0's other evidence is that, when drawing from a sa'angreal like Callandor, the Power required to Shield a man is increased 100 fold, since his power level has increased proportionately. Which would mean that it would take a greater power than 13 weak Aes Sedai linked. Since effectively the 1 strong man is now comparable to 100 with Callandor.

Strength is in fact the key to Shielding. A stronger channeler can overpower a weaker one, while the weaker one cannot do so without some kind of trick. Shielding revolves almost entirely around strength proportions. To say that strength does not in fact matter in this case goes against the very principle of Shielding itself.

Now, like Yoniy0 said, it is fine to disagree, and I won't try to convince you further than this one post, agree to disagree. As you state, there is no definitive answer to the question. However, there is no evidence, textual or logical, that supports such a theory, and all we know about the subject, both textually and logically points to Yoniy0's conclusion. It isn't a 50/50 here, I would say it was more a 80/20 split.

I am of course open to 13 being a magical number revealed in aMoL, there is a lot of things involving 13, however, as things stand, it would take a break in logic and/or a new element of the Power revealed to be proved true, whereas Yoniy0's conclusion is based on the logic and rules already established.

Edit: Oh, remembered another piece (this is not debating with you Finnssss, but more for everyone who looks at it so they can come to their own conclusion).

When Rand went to Tar Valon, he was Shielded and held by 2 full circles (26 all up). So the Aes Sedai do not believe that the 13 is a perfect method. Of course, Aes Sedai aren't exactly the authority when it comes to these things, but it shows that the 13 linked method is not thought to be perfect, just the common thing pre-EotW.

Also, it is the largest link that can be made without a man, so 13 is the strongest they could do, which plays a factor in the history of 13, when men cannot link at all without a woman's aid. (The Forsaken thing is already answered, they do not mention any sa/angreal, and Lanfear was talking about Rhavin unaided or not linked. Lews Therin's ramblings are hardly indicative, but he also doesn't mention sa/angreal.)

I would say Loial, but I have seen people who don't like him.

Birgitte seems a pretty good bet, I haven't seen any Birgitte hating.

Tam is pretty much liked by all.

Logain? I can't recall anyone hating on him. However, I could understand if people didn't like him.

Not sure why Narishma isn't liked, he doesn't do much except be a faithful Asha'man, trusted to fetch and wield callandor and scare the crap out of and calls down a room full of Rebel Sitters.

Damer has got to be up there, he is awesome all round.

Haven't seen anyone hating on Darlin or Dobraine either.

Bashere and Ituralde like mentioned are more that everyone seems to like.

Edit: Re: Great Captains: Niall wasn't very much liked