On ‎2‎/‎27‎/‎2020 at 10:37 PM, Carebear Sedai said:

 

I think they should junk it because it's a stupid plotline, terribly developed in the books themselves, and a waste of time to adapt when they have 14 books worth of material and limited screentime.

 

I'll have to disagree with your earlier point about the 3 love interests playing a huge role in Rand's development, because (aside from Min) it was mainly Egwene, then Moiraine, and finally Nynaeve as the three women driving Rand's development. The roles Elayne and Aviendha played pale in comparison.

 

Drawing comparisons to GoT and all the salacious romances there doesn't quite work IMO. The twincest drove the main plotline, and was a relationship that tied to the core of Jamie's character development. It was impossible to drop. Rand's harem in no way compares. If the show had unlimited screentime and the main plot of the series hugely depended on Rand's harem, I would see the argument for including it. But neither are true. There's also the difference of how fascinating and well developed Cersei/Jaime were (up to book 4), versus the mess that is Rand and his harem and possibly the weakest part of WoT. 

I think what many miss is that Rand is not a normal man. He is the champion of the light destined to be spun out once again when the pattern needs him. That is why he was destined to have three loves he loved equally and that is why he could not choose between them.

Some choose to regard this as offensive. But it is equally clear how none of the women involved are willing to let a man get between them and their friendships.

On ‎9‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 1:37 PM, haycraftd said:

I still don't get how Lan/Nynaeve happened.  It was a sweet relationship, though, develops, and both were very complex people. 

This comes up quite a bit but if you put yourself in the minds of both characters and what they say about one another it is clearer.

Lan had relationships before, and with attractive women as well. But if you hear how he describes Nynaeve he is often saying she is like a lioness. So he wanted a woman who combined this with both fierceness, courage and concern for others. Nynaeve demonstrates all of these qualities in the first book, particularly when you consider she had no formal training at that point.

Nynaeve is a little bit more complex and I think here the tendency of many POV characters to never think about their pasts is an hinderance.  To my knowledge for example Nynaeve never once thinks of her parents in any of her POV chapters. What we do know though is that her father often took her out into the woods to teach her how to track and that she seems to have had a very close relationship with him before being orphaned in her teens. On top of this she is extremely strong willed and probably realises that she needs a strong man to stand up to her. Add these things together and her instant attraction to one of the strongest male characters and one old enough to be her father very much makes sense. Notice how her first thoughts is how she can impress Lan with her tracking skills, as she once would have tried to impress her father.

I think you really need to read those Nynaeve EOTW chapters again to understand this is perhaps the relationship most based on physiological factors. Rather than just instant attraction, or the pattern willed their relationship.   

18 hours ago, Sabio said:

I don't think Elayne needed a title, but Rand being a commoner would of never been allowed near her and then she would of been off to the White tower.  You saw Morgase having a flings with Bryne and Thom. 

Morgase did so after providing Andor with an heir and Elayne would have had the same consideration.

On ‎2‎/‎24‎/‎2020 at 3:51 AM, Sabio said:

Not necessarily they wouldn't love him if he wasn't the Dragon reborn, it's more of Elayne and Avi never would of met him to fall in love if he wasn't. There is a chance he still could of met Min one day.  But as a mere sheep herder he never would of met Avi and had he still of tumbled in the garden, once he left he never would of met Elayne again.  It's being the Dragon that allowed them to be around him to know they loved him.

I think that is the case for Elayne though.

I think Min or Aviendha could love the man Elayne needed the title as well (not putting her down she does become a queen after all)

I always viewed them as being different aspects of femininity and Rand being unable to choose between them due to his role as champion of humanity and the author deliberately not wanting a choice between them for that reason.

Girl next door, career woman and beautiful princess.  It was also important as well, as detailed above, that the women chose to hold on to sisterhood above petty jealousy.

In respect to re-evaluating the series as a whole. Yes very much so. As a young man in my late teens you would naturally identify more with the young lads.

These days I find Rand and Perrin rather tedious in the first two books and Matt isn't really in it until book 3. These days probably my most entertaining point of view is mid books Nynaeve.

In terms of re-evaluating the books themselves I think if you skim through the later books between book 7 and book 11 (KOD) and just skip anything involving Faile and just skim read many of the other boring plot lines, you can appreciate more the things that really work in those books. I think Mat actually has his best chapters in those books and in KOD. Also liked most of the Rand chapters in those books as well.

17 hours ago, HighWiredSith said:

I started Wheel of Time in the 90's, when epic fantasy was scarce.  Before WoT I read LOTR, of course, Shannara, Michael Moorcock's Elric Saga, and the Recluse books.  I really enjoyed Wheel of Time for the most part despite feeling like many of the later books drug on incessantly.

 

When I read that Amazon would be making a series, I started a re-read and have really struggled enjoying the books.  Maybe they're just outdated, with all the male-female bickering, the constant descriptions of every single piece of clothing that every character wears in every scene, the idea that so much of conflict revolves around characters simply choosing to not share important information for reasons that don't often make sense, and then passages that seem to go on forever, dumping tons of information on history and customs but cover very little plot ground.  I think maybe having read so much fantasy since that maybe I see fantasy in general differently now.  I suppose the one series I most often compare it to is Brandon Sanderson's Stormlight archive which also very long and very detailed and full of info dumps and long passages but seems to move along briskly despite the lengthy page count.  I got to Lord of Chaos and have stopped, knowing that I'm getting to the part of the series I really struggled enjoying the first time.  I'm curious to see how the series addresses this, if they will quicken the pace of the books, consolidate the many, many plot threads, generally change the way the female and male characters interact.  I don't hate on the books like some people do because I did really enjoy them the first time around.  

In respect to Male female "bickering". It is a society that is pre modern but with far greater gender equality because the original sin in this world was male.

The relevance of it being pre-modern is that there are still separate male and female spheres, particularly in the world of work. Hence creating more of a gender divide than in today's societies. I personally still think it has a great deal of relevance in that it has independent and powerful female characters who are still realistic, in that they are recognisable female.

On the whole though if you are struggling with the first six books I would give up there if I were you because it gets far worse before it gets better.

Nynaeve is always great IMO, her chapters are some of the best in the middle books.  For those around her though I would concede she could be annoying.

Not a disliked character as such but Egwene can often come across as very irritating. From picking fights early on in the series with Nynaeve to treating Gawyn like dirt once they are reunited. Add in assuming she is always right when dealing with others like Rand and Perrin.

Tuon I find very irritating as well with how closed minded she is.

Other than her you have characters who are supposed to be disliked like Elaida.

14 hours ago, Denver Steve said:

Victims of Spanking in WoT;

 

Elayne.

Nyneave

Siuan

Elaida

Alviarin

Moghedian

Galina

Jolene (that one was funny ?)

 

And of course,

Egween....possibly the most spanked character in any story, ever.

 

Thats’s 9 !

Am I missing anyone?

I don’t remember Min ever getting it, or Aviendha..

maybe Colavere ?

 

You are missing some, no doubt because there is so much of it going on.

Min is indeed spanked, by Sorilea when she was interrogating her, and perhaps on other occasions I cannot remember. 

The Aiel are not meant to be perfect and in fact most societies that excelled at warfare had deeply unpleasant aspects to them as well.

If the Aiel had been perfect then they would have been an example of unrealistic world building, but, by contrast, their willingness to carry out mass slaughter to avenge a perceived sleight seems very realistic for a society where warfare often results from breaches of honour or old blood feuds.

They are people like any other and have developed to survive in their environment. As a reader we probably find them more interesting than the societies on the other side of the dragonwall, but that doesn't necessarily make them better.  

Corporal punishment was very much a part of discipline for children and young adults in the time period which WOT is most resembles. We don't see any male characters in similar situations so while it might seem all women if one of our male POV characters was a young boy at school, or one freshly conscripted into the army, then they would  no doubt be undergoing similar and in fact Matt often remembers being switched for misdemeanours from what I recall.

All that said it is a little excessive in the books and effects characters who are no longer at that stage in their personal or professional lives. The windfinders in particular seem problematic here, but I can think of a few other examples. The TV show would probably be wise to tone it down in those instances.

9 hours ago, Bard29 said:

What was it Min did that was so important that if she didn't do it the Dark One would win the last battle ?  

She tried to keep Rand human. Elayne and Aviendha were off having baths together so without her he might well have succumbed to his growing darkness.  

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

Isn't part of good writing, is that some people just have shitty motivations? That not every characters needs some grand backstory that led them there?

Sorry I didn't mean that the writing is poor. Only that the characters of the male forsaken and, usually, their competence, as written, are no better than that of the female. Apologies I worded that poorly.

Just to respond to your point though I would have liked to see at least a couple of the forsaken being more along the lines of a tragic hero. Drawn to the "dark side" in this particular world due to understandable human flaws. Rather than all be motivated by power, Sadism and/or petty jealousy  

5 hours ago, Polskija said:

I'd rather have less of this kind of censorship and more of the things RJ wrote. 

Also are the male forsaken written any better. Two of them defected to the shadow purely because they were jealous of Lews Therin after all. They were all deeply flawed people which was why they were drawn to the shadow. Petty, jealous, greedy and unable to work well with others.

8 hours ago, johnnysd2 said:

 

I am not sure they cut any Forsaken to be honest. They really are not all around at the same time necessarily and almost all of them play important roles.  I like your list but they are almost all characters that will be fun on screen. I read that the budget for each episode is actually larger than GoT so I suspect they may not cut as much as we think as much as just streamline the story progression.  I mean there were like 20 main characters in GOT at least as well, and additional characters sort of adds depth to the show even if they are not seen that much. Big question for me sort of remains how "adult" will it be. 

But GOT also only had a handful of bad guys around at the same time. Thirteen is far too many to personalise them and have the viewer know anything about them at all. I would say one good change would be for them to stay dead once killed. that way at least we will be down to at most 11 by the end of the first season. Maybe start out with fewer of them as well. 

Helpful to think back to the Hobbit movies and how that became a bit of a mess in terms of characterisation for the dwarfs. I think often there is quite a dividing line with increasing numbers. Once over a certain threshold the viewer ceases to care about the characters.  

3 minutes ago, James al'Dylan said:

Well I wish I hadn’t mentioned it now. I do think, however, that if you are wishing for a book adaptation where all characters are exactly as you saw them in the book then you’re going to be disappointed. The art of telling the story on TV, and for an audience in 2019, will entail changes to story arcs, characters, and even some end points possibly. In order for the series to be commissioned beyond one series they will need to reach a broad audience. 

I entirely agree that they need to reach a broad audience rather than a narrow one. GOT managed to reach a broad audience and had gay characters.

As pointed out in prior posts Min can also be part of achieving a broad audience as she is a more relatable character than many. 

There are clear areas where they can bring out a LGBT element without derailing the core story. Whether that be the pillow friends of the Aes Sedai, or by making a character like Galad gay. 

1 hour ago, mistborn82 said:

The producers are making the show their way and all the so-called fans who disagree with their direction on some form of bigoted grounds, can get up the money, buy the rights and recast everyone as a WASP.

So any resemblance to the books will be coincidental then because I am curious what it was about the very many Min POV chapters that made you feel she was gender confused and in fact thought she was male.

Like many I came to WOT in the early to mid nineties from a time when TV shows and films were designed to be art rather than political manifestos.  

I still hope for an actual book adaptation but perhaps I am hoping in vain. 

30 minutes ago, Polskija said:

I thought the way Min dresses had something to do with some bad experiences when she was younger. I think it's mentioned around the time she spends with the tower Aes Sedai that she doesn't want to give the impression she's pretty and fragile because iirc she was sexually harrassed when she was younger and she blames the dresses. 

EDIT: Which itself is an important topic, and would not require LGTBQ-subjects. 

Min gives us a very interesting perspective into a girl's life who isn't nobly born, superpowered or running around with a spear. I.E. the vast majority of women in Randland and yet some still think she's a prime candidate to be cut.

She did spend some time in a rough tavern as a tavern maid and her aunts come and get her out if I remember rightly, and I believe she did suffer sexual harassment so no it hasn't been all sweetness and light in her life. I interpret her wearing breeches as more refusing to be bound by convention than by traumatic experiences though. Clothing at that time was extremely confining for women with multiple layers of skirts that went down to the ankles and heavy lacing or even corsets for the upper body. Min wasn't going to put up with all that, but that doesn't mean she was the latest political fad of "transgender".

She is a heterosexual girl who likes horses and doesn't want to bound by outdated convention. Sounds like millions of western women to me who would be rather startled to be told they are "transgender"

7 hours ago, James al'Dylan said:

I wouldn’t be surprised if they simply adopted a very gender ambiguous role for Min; even more so than in the books, and possibly to the point where they’re fully gender fluid. It would allow them to go lots of different ways with their and Rand’s relationship, possibly even changing significantly throughout the series. And let’s face it, Min does struggle to a certain degree through the books with identity. I can see Rand meeting someone in Baerlon who is a ‘boy’ or young man; then when we see them again (perhaps in TgH) they are identifying as a woman. I don’t think it’s being cynical to think the producers wouldn’t be keen to add more diversity. 

if they wanted the full set I suppose

in the books though Min is a pretty girl who likes dressing as a boy, probably more on practicality grounds than anything else. She has had past boyfriends before she met Rand. Given how confining female dress was at the time probably Min dresses closer to many current female readers than most of the rest of the female characters.

9 hours ago, mistborn82 said:

I don't where everyone, authors and fans gets the GRRM is so awesome. LOTR and The Hobbit are still being read after all this time and Tolkien didn't need beheadings, rapes, the red wedding, etc. to show how awesome of a writer he was. Granted GRRM has good descriptions and stuff but the graphic and crass nature diminishes the overall story for me.

You are really just discussing the age range and sensitivities a book is suitable for rather than the quality of the writing. I read the Hobbit at ten and LOTR at about 11. Any parent letting their child read ASOIAF at 11 probably needs their head examined.  You might as well say David Eddings is a better writer because his main two series are suitable for ages twelve and up.

The middle ages was an often brutal time and often not a good place to be if you were poor or a woman or both. GRRM shows you that reality but actually keeps most of the sexual violence and torture off page, so he is actually far less graphic than he could be.  

10 hours ago, Ryrin said:

 

Nynaeve thanked Myrelle for saving Lan. To save him, she needed to have sex with him. That’s why Moiraine transferred to bond to Myrelle and not anyone else. 

I think that Myrelle  had convinced herself it was necessary, that doesn't mean it was required.

We don't get Lan point of view chapters around that time but from the perspective of other characters he is still very dark while with Myrelle and only starts to become more his old self while with Nynaeve. So he actually needed love and purpose in my view, not meaningless sex. 

9 hours ago, Ryrin said:

 

My understanding from the books is that it was necessary to save Lan from his broken bond with Moiraine. That’s why Moiraine transferred the bond to Myrelle.

Well transferring the bond was necessary but in reality Lan needed Nynaeve which is why he comes back to life more when he is with her.

Incidentally did anyone read that as Lan being unfaithful?. I didn't as I viewed that there was a fair amount of compulsion involved. 

Siuan I could definitely see, because if they make the focus of season 1 Moraine then her relationship with Siuan becomes even more important and I could see the potential for flashbacks. 

Logain is already confirmed and will be an opportunity to see WOT world from another perspective in the first season. 

Elyas could easily be cut and as for the other two I don't think I would want to spend anymore time with them than I did in the books. 

12 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Daniel is 6'-2, While Ricky the Steamboat is 5'-10". 

Weight is 178 to 235.

I think Daniel/Perrin/Rand can easily put on 20-50 pounds of Muscle and look absolutely shredded.

Wrestlers weights, particularly back then, were often overstated. But in any case my point was more the look. Lan spends his time travelling, training and fighting so he would barely have an ounce of fat on him. 

3 hours ago, Polskija said:

 

 

Well, to me he seems reasonably muscular for a warder I'd say. 
 

He's got muscles sure but Lan for me is pure muscle and sinew. For any older Wrestling fans I am picturing someone with the abs of Ricky "The Dragon" Steamboat.