Not a huge thing, but the damane sending a tsunami against a child just smacks of 'how cool would it be' ism.

So is the implication is they are Gandalfing TWO characters in the finale?

Giant wall, put big windows on the second floor. Brilliant. 

3 minutes ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

Sanderson also says Moiraine was stilled not shielded. Interesting... Perhaps a set up for Nyn healing stilling? 

 

 

Egwene can apparently heal death, so who cares? What are the stakes? WHY?

Somebody would have to explain to me why these massive change were necessary to facilitate Jordans story. Otherwise, i can only assume it was a show runner and writers out to prove they had 'cooler' ideas,  and screw that. I was on board til this episode and now i feel like a fool. 

The Aiel did not disappear. They were all at Thakandar fighting. The Last Battle was not the only front.

*Only the Aiel sworn to the Dragon and the WOs were at Thakandar.

Perhaps the Seanchan defeated the trollocs and abandoned a ruined Randland, only the grohm survive south of the blight on the continent.

The only character I  viscerally dislike is Elayne. As in, i want to skip her chapters and never reread them. I kind of like Elaida etc, because theyre very good at being nasty characters, sort of like bad guy pro-wrestlers.

Elayne actually declined in my estimation, she started out as a spoiled, reckless princess with an admirable scrappin side, but the problem is thats exactly how she ended. Egwene and Nyneave both had character arcs to speak of, and learned to behave very differently by the end compared to the beginning (without losing the core of themselves either). Back in the first few books, it was the moron trio blundering from one disaster of their own incaution to the next. Eventually they split off and for the most part the other two still did very dangerous things, even inadvisable, but theyd do them because they believed the risk was worth it.  Elayne, on the other hand, just skipped along wherever her whim took her, constantly ignoring advice and warning (as opposed to judiciously weighing them, whether accepted or not). And she got a lot of the people around her killed doing it (somebody ought to add them up). The Elayne of Memories is not appreciably different than the Elayne of TEotW. Rand has poor taste, and putting this person in charge of an army, much less armies, is flatly lunatic.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If she's Jenn, its absolutely theory fodder. There was nothing in the books that would lead down that road, absolutely deus ex machina. If its an avatar, she makes RJ a liar and is literally deus ex machina.

 

I like the Tigraine theory though. If that's it (or something else with some thread of foreshadowing in hindsight), I'll gladly eat my words on hating the mystery.

Unfortunately she doesn't physically seem a good match.

Why theory fodder if shes jenn, imo going by the books her being jenn is the ONLY theory that makes sense.

Because it drops out of the sky. It only makes sense because of how its dressed up- ie, she is dressed like an Aiel and has mysterious powers. Lets put it this way- if this scene happened in Egwene in Tar Valon with Nakomni dressed as an AS, the only logical thing would be that she was an ancient AS. There's nothing previous to her appearance that explains her appearance, aside from her appearance itself.

It makes sense because we know the jenn had some knowlage of the future and the motive for wanting to save the Aiel, now we know it happened while Avi was asleep adds more weight to Nakomi being a jenn dreamwalker.

We know AS had some knowledge of the future, motive for wanting to save AS, and ability to dreamwalk.

Yeah but the meeting didnt happen in the tower and wasnt significant to the future if the AS. It happened in the waste were the future of the Aiel was at stake. Your senario was hypaphetical while mine happened.

Yeah but thats my point- your argument is circular. It happened because it happened, not because anything we've read made it necessary or predictable that it would happen. Thats exactly my point.

Sorry mate , forgive my stupidity but not sure what this means.

Was Nakomi necessary whatever she was? Who wants any story to be predictabe?

 

Oops, just saw this. Anyway, while nobody wants a story to be too predictable, most people definitely dont want things to have no logical connection to things happening previously (particularly when they would seem to have been ruled out by the authors off camera words). Dumping something in at the end of a story that you cant go 'aha! this makes perfect sense based on what i know from previous actions' is a bad practice in general. For instance, it was a big surprise and pretty unpredictable how Rand laid the trap for Ishmael and used Calandor with the TP, but enough evidence had been previously displayed to make it logically entirely acceptable. It was foreshadowed (and foretold) that this would happen, but how it actually happened was still surprising and novel. In fact if it didn't happen, we'd feel cheated.

Nakomi is different. She drops out of thin air in the Waste for a minute, and then pops back up at the climax of 14 books. Its not quite Deus Ex Machina given that Nakomi didn't actually save the day, but otherwise all the objections to deus ex machina are present with her. If those two scenes were stripped out, we'd be none the wiser that this character ever existed, would exist, or should exist.

"So Nakomi was essentially a buddy jesus showing up to give the world (the readers anyway) a big thumbs up?" Good Dogma reference. Well played. sir. But basically, yes. Personally, I find it meaningful that even though the Creator will not directly get involved and change events, that doesn't mean he has forgot about the world or doesn't want humankind to succeed in stopping the DO from remaking all creation.

Love that movie. Ok i can see that, i don't love it personally but i could see it being consistent with what RJ stated.

 

 

 

 

 

If she's Jenn, its absolutely theory fodder. There was nothing in the books that would lead down that road, absolutely deus ex machina. If its an avatar, she makes RJ a liar and is literally deus ex machina.

 

I like the Tigraine theory though. If that's it (or something else with some thread of foreshadowing in hindsight), I'll gladly eat my words on hating the mystery.

Unfortunately she doesn't physically seem a good match.

Why theory fodder if shes jenn, imo going by the books her being jenn is the ONLY theory that makes sense.

Because it drops out of the sky. It only makes sense because of how its dressed up- ie, she is dressed like an Aiel and has mysterious powers. Lets put it this way- if this scene happened in Egwene in Tar Valon with Nakomni dressed as an AS, the only logical thing would be that she was an ancient AS. There's nothing previous to her appearance that explains her appearance, aside from her appearance itself.

It makes sense because we know the jenn had some knowlage of the future and the motive for wanting to save the Aiel, now we know it happened while Avi was asleep adds more weight to Nakomi being a jenn dreamwalker.

We know AS had some knowledge of the future, motive for wanting to save AS, and ability to dreamwalk.

Yeah but the meeting didnt happen in the tower and wasnt significant to the future if the AS. It happened in the waste were the future of the Aiel was at stake. Your senario was hypaphetical while mine happened.

 

Yeah but thats my point- your argument is circular. It happened because it happened, not because anything we've read made it necessary or predictable that it would happen. Thats exactly my point.

"it just makes Nakomi literally pointless" It serves to show the Creator's concern for its creation, which is consistent with how the Creator was used in The Eye of the World and AMoL. "Well, you could argue that words of encouragement are an active role, especially since its going to cause decisions to be made that radically change the future." It was what Aviendha saw in Rhuidean that might radically alter the future, not the meeting with Nakomi. Avi was already on her way there when she met Nakomi.

So Nakomi was essentially a buddy jesus showing up to give the world (the readers anyway) a big thumbs up?

 

 

 

If she's Jenn, its absolutely theory fodder. There was nothing in the books that would lead down that road, absolutely deus ex machina. If its an avatar, she makes RJ a liar and is literally deus ex machina.

 

I like the Tigraine theory though. If that's it (or something else with some thread of foreshadowing in hindsight), I'll gladly eat my words on hating the mystery.

Unfortunately she doesn't physically seem a good match.

Why theory fodder if shes jenn, imo going by the books her being jenn is the ONLY theory that makes sense.

Because it drops out of the sky. It only makes sense because of how its dressed up- ie, she is dressed like an Aiel and has mysterious powers. Lets put it this way- if this scene happened in Egwene in Tar Valon with Nakomni dressed as an AS, the only logical thing would be that she was an ancient AS. There's nothing previous to her appearance that explains her appearance, aside from her appearance itself.

It makes sense because we know the jenn had some knowlage of the future and the motive for wanting to save the Aiel, now we know it happened while Avi was asleep adds more weight to Nakomi being a jenn dreamwalker.

 

We know AS had some knowledge of the future, motive for wanting to save AS, and ability to dreamwalk.

 

If she's Jenn, its absolutely theory fodder. There was nothing in the books that would lead down that road, absolutely deus ex machina. If its an avatar, she makes RJ a liar and is literally deus ex machina.

 

I like the Tigraine theory though. If that's it (or something else with some thread of foreshadowing in hindsight), I'll gladly eat my words on hating the mystery.

Unfortunately she doesn't physically seem a good match.

 

Why theory fodder if shes jenn, imo going by the books her being jenn is the ONLY theory that makes sense.

 

Because it drops out of the sky. It only makes sense because of how its dressed up- ie, she is dressed like an Aiel and has mysterious powers. Lets put it this way- if this scene happened in Egwene in Tar Valon with Nakomni dressed as an AS, the only logical thing would be that she was an ancient AS. There's nothing previous to her appearance that explains her appearance, aside from her appearance itself.

"If its an avatar, she makes RJ a liar and is literally deus ex machina." Not really, though. RJ had already established a passive role for the Creator when the Creator spoke on two separate occasions. As Nakomi, all the Creator really does is give some words of encouragement to Aviendha, but doesn't in any way change the course of events. Ditto with her appearing when Rand was accomplishing the body swap with Moridin. All she does is confirm that what Rand is already doing is the correct thing. If Nakomi were Tigraine or a Jenn, there is no way she would know that what Rand was doing was body-swapping with Moridin. The Creator is the only thing that fits.

Well, you could argue that words of encouragement are an active role, especially since its going to cause decisions to be made that radically change the future.

But your alternative has a problem to- it just makes Nakomi literally pointless. Style points might be worse than theory fodder.

If she's Jenn, its absolutely theory fodder. There was nothing in the books that would lead down that road, absolutely deus ex machina. If its an avatar, she makes RJ a liar and is literally deus ex machina. 

I like the Tigraine theory though. If that's it (or something else with some thread of foreshadowing in hindsight), I'll gladly eat my words on hating the mystery. 

Unfortunately she doesn't physically seem a good match.

The Creator's having only one champion, and his being a male, does seem a major discrepancy in the otherwise symmetrical cosmology of Randland.  I seem to recall RJs views on the Dragon, the creators champion, and the turn of the wheel were quite a bit more complicated (or confused if you read it like i did) than the simple- every turn has a dragon, that dragon is always the same soul, he is the creators champion.  Admittedly its been a while, but i recall RJ being a bit coy and very specific with his language about this subject.

Like I said, i'd have to go back and read everything he said on the subject, but it seems to me the most satisfying explanation would be something that would allow for a female counterpart to Rand, and Nakomi being in the 'enlightened' state during this age that Rand assumed at the end, and perhaps Nakomi being reborn for another turn of the wheel while Rand does his Kung Fu walking the earth. But I dont know that that could slip past the definitive statements RJ made.

It's pretty clear to anyone paying close attention that Nakomi is an avatar of the Creator. It's also pretty clear that this is what RJ always intended - BS and TJ didn't make this up. It was in RJ's notes. BS won't give a direct answer because he has been instructed by TJ not to

Nothing about this is obvious, for anyone that has followed RJ and BS various statements on the subjects over the years.

I think there's a good chance it was RJ who decided her death a long time ago, maybe even as far back as TEotW. Egwene suffered a similar fate as Eldrene, had a similar name, and was the only one in the Two Rivers group to recognize Eldrene's husband's warcry when Mat used it.

 

“When you shouted, I thought—just for a minute—I thought I understood you. But it’s all gone, now.” [Egwene] sighed and shook her head. “Perhaps you’re right. Strange what you can imagine at a time like that, isn’t it?”

 

“Carai an Caldazar,” Moiraine said. They all twisted to stare at her. “Carai an Ellisande. Al Ellisande. For the honor of the Red Eagle. For the honor of the Rose of the Sun. The Rose of the Sun. The ancient warcry of Manetheren, and the warcry of its last king. Eldrene was called the Rose of the Sun.” Moiraine’s smile took in Egwene and Mat both, though her gaze may have rested a moment longer on him than on her.

 

In the earlier books, there are a number of possible foreshadowings of Egwene's death, most notably "the Year of Four Amyrlins" quote from TPoD.

 

“Is the Hall always this bad, Siuan?”

 

Siuan nodded, shifting slightly to try to find a better balance. No two of her stool’s legs were the same length. “But it could be worse. Remind me to tell you about the Year of the Four Amyrlins; that was about a hundred and fifty years after the founding of Tar Valon. In those days, the normal workings of the Tower nearly rivaled what’s happening today. Every hand tried to snatch the tiller, if they could. There were actually two rival Halls of the Tower in Tar Valon for part of that year. Almost like now. Just about everyone came to grief in the end, including a few who thought they were going to save the Tower. Some of them might have, if they hadn’t stepped in quicksand. The Tower survived anyway, of course. It always does.”

 

Two rival Halls, four Amyrlins in one year, and "just about everyone came to grief in the end." Sound familiar?

 

Gawyn's death was also more than likely, since Egwene dreamed of it in ACoS:

 

In the way of dreams she floated above a long, straight road across a grassy plain, looking down upon a man riding a black stallion. Gawyn. Then she was standing in the road in front of him, and he reined in. Not because he saw her, this time, but the road that had been straight now forked right where she stood, running over tall hills so no one could see what lay beyond. She knew, though. Down one fork was his violent death, down the other, a long life and a death in bed. On one path, he would marry her, on the other, not. She knew what lay ahead, but not which way led to which. Suddenly he did see her, or seemed to, and smiled, and turned his horse along one of the forks...

 

There were other uncertain viewings involving Gawyn and Egwene. In LoC, she dreamed of Gawyn "swinging a door closed on her, and she knew if that narrowing gap of light vanished, she was dead." In ACoS, Egwene dreamed that "straps at waist and shoulder held her tightly to the block, and the headsman's axe descended, but she knew that somewhere someone was running, and if they ran fast enough, the axe would stop."

 

It doesn't seem like RJ's style to add so many ominous viewings about Gawyn and Egwene unless he meant for at least one to end badly. As it turned out, Gawyn married her AND got a violent death. If Egwene had survived AMoL, it still wouldn't have been a very happy ending for her. I think Egwene dying in a blaze of glory was in many ways a kinder fate than Egwene surviving.

 

It's also worth noting that Brandon and Team Jordan have given us many Aes Sedai answers over the years. Brandon saying he was instructed to make Cadsuane Amyrlin doesn't necessarily mean it was RJ who decided it. It was Harriet who decided Siuan's death (RJ left no notes on Siuan after TGS), and Bela's. So it could have been Harriet who made the call on Egwene as well. If that's the case, I wish they would tell us, but they clearly have no intention of giving us any further details at this point.

Well, say what you want about Gawyn but he certainly lived the old saying, "If you come to a fork in the road, take it."

So, unsurprisingly, mixed evidence...

Moiraine definitely heard the voice (her eyes went wide), but Rand considered that he had heard the voice once before (EotW) and was 'hoping' to hear it again. He also said 'Thank you' as a response. So. Unless Rand was being astonishingly sarcastic or polite, I don't see him saying thank you to the DO. Yet the voice wasn't meant for only him to hear. So I don't know what to make of all that. I hate the idea of an undisclosed 3rd party super power (my entire problem with Nakomi), but I dislike the idea of the Creator's only visible interaction being as a ring announcer (better just to remain entirely silent than to prove you can actually interact but you choose not to).

I'll check tonight but i'm almost positive Moraine and Nynaeve heard the voice.

 

 

 

 

I should have clarified: the SECOND time we hear it is not the dark one unless the dark one has a severe case of dementia

 

Mmm, I think you could read it that the DO was essentially calling Rand out (not necessarily knowing he was SO close) and Rand pops right up a few moments later.  He was on a time frame, after all, with his eclipse and all.  The way the voice was described and its effect on the 3 seemed Dark to me.

 

 

But could the Dark One speak to Rand if he didn't know where he was? 

 

 

In Shayol Ghul? Perhaps.

 

PS- I dont know if I buy it, but i like it better than the Creator making a 'Let's Get Ready to Rumble' flyby.

 

 

Fair enough, I'm happy to agree to a negative for both the Creator and DO, but I can't think of any other reasonable alternative.  The in book evidence against the DO for me outweighs the author quote from RJ, but if anyone could come up with a credible alternative I'd jump at it.  I guess the simplest explanation would be that the dagger didn't work, so the DO could find Rand...

 

I dont think the fact that Rand could hear him means that the DO found him. If I yell to my wife from my bedroom it doesn't mean I can see her in the family room.  And yes, I assume my voice sounds like the DO.

 

 

I should have clarified: the SECOND time we hear it is not the dark one unless the dark one has a severe case of dementia

 

Mmm, I think you could read it that the DO was essentially calling Rand out (not necessarily knowing he was SO close) and Rand pops right up a few moments later.  He was on a time frame, after all, with his eclipse and all.  The way the voice was described and its effect on the 3 seemed Dark to me.

 

 

But could the Dark One speak to Rand if he didn't know where he was? 

 

In Shayol Ghul? Perhaps.

PS- I dont know if I buy it, but i like it better than the Creator making a 'Let's Get Ready to Rumble' flyby.

I should have clarified: the SECOND time we hear it is not the dark one unless the dark one has a severe case of dementia

Mmm, I think you could read it that the DO was essentially calling Rand out (not necessarily knowing he was SO close) and Rand pops right up a few moments later.  He was on a time frame, after all, with his eclipse and all.  The way the voice was described and its effect on the 3 seemed Dark to me.

 

 

it would have been a mistake as the fortresses of Arafel could have been the anvil and the combined forces of the light, rested for a few days, the hammer to take them in the rear

Not really, the Shadow could have brought both of their armies there at roughly the same time. Had the Light choose to engage they would have had less time to rest and prepare, moreover it would not have been over terrain the Light has chosen, learned and set up for the combat.

Comparing the size of the Shadow armies to those that guard the fortress, plus throwing in channelers to negate the walls, I would say that only a fraction of the Shadow armies would have been needed to engage the fortress. Freeing the rest of the armies to take advantageous position in the vicinity.

without knowing the lay of the land in the area it's hard to make good estimates, but I am pretty confident that there the Shadow could field the trollocs much better then funneling them through narrow passages like on the FoM.

All pretty much true, (except the the forces of light would have a bit more time to rest as at least the Shienar army would have further to march) but the point is if the Shadow wanted Arafel badly enough, they could have done all that even given the gathering at Merrillor. But they didn't, because Arafel wasn't worth the time and effort... hence it would be wise (if ruthless) for the Light to encourage it (anything bad for the enemy must be good for me, in this case wasting time on Arafel). Theyd sacrificed Kandor, Caemlyn, and Shienar in the interests of strategy, no point in not sacrificing Arafel if it meant a great chance to win the war by giving the light a few days to rest their channelers and regroup.

 

 

That's very true, and they also march too fast when we aren't looking. I call it the Quantum Theorem of Trolloc Marching. Nobel is pending.

:-) Just out of curiosity, is there an estimate how fast did they get in the extreme (km/day)?

I'll look but I seem to recall it in the neighborhood of working out to 50 miles a day or something like it. Across mixed terrains, crossing rivers etc, for many days, without supplies.

 

"True, we're still talking small pockets of people, by definition not enough to support a nation-state. Assumedly most of them would flee."

 

I am not sure, Almoth Plain seems to have plenty of people, and so does the TR, both are not actually a nation state nor a province of a kingdom (at the start of the books anyway).

I am not sure how many could successfully escape should the trollocs use some advance hunting (and scouting) parties.

I'd imagine most if not all of them had fled to population centers when the world started going crazy, and certainly would have when news that Kandor was toast and the AS army defeated reached them. Thats an isolated spot to be in and TV is the closest city, and would seem to be the safest place you're likely to find.

How would the channelers know to show up where the shadow converges? are you going to hold a gateway capable channeler in every small town to summon reinforcements? the Light doesn't even do this with large cities (at least not shown). Intelligence is invaluable, especially when fighting in a-symmetrical warfare.

 

As for the Aiel, I expect the Shadow to have some kind of minimum competency to have known that the Aiel were sent to SG.

The light seemed to have hit upon some excellent intelligence tools (flying lizards, gateways in the skies, not to mention channelers that can sense them at a distance).

And the vast majority of the Aiel were at Merrilor (or more accurately put, disappeared completely). Only those sworn to the Dragon and wise ones went to SG, all of the clans and their chiefs fought in the south (which is why Rhuarc had to resign as a Chief to go to SG).