Just a little Respect!

[RobertAlexWillis]

I can't remember reading about that in the books. Would you be able to find the book/page it's on?

 

I finally found the little blurb I was looking for on this. Rand thinks to himself, in TPoD, chapter 14, regarding the growing numbers in the Black Tower:

 

In a few months, at that rate, there would be more men who could channel than Aes Sedai, true, but the newest sister had years of training behind her. And part of that specifically taught how to deal with a man who could channel.

 

Given that one of the Tower's primary responsibilities has been dealing with men who could channel, and that the largest Ajah is the Red, it is unsurprising that a standard part of every sister's training is how to deal with men channeling. Even the Aes Sedai are not short sighted enough to not include the shielding weave in that training. When Rand was captured, the shields were not maintained solely by Red Ajah. After Logain was Healed in Salidar, the sisters shielded and held him, although no Red Ajah were among them. Clearly all Aes Sedai are taught the weaves to shield men.

 

LOL ... I don't even remember how that question came up, but there's the answer.

[phlpr23]

Hmm, so because he asks her opinion on two things, he now implicitly trusts her? She's OLD, and she's a channeler ... The reason he didn't ask anyone else is because .... They would have no idea what so ever. That and the fact that both his plans are extremely controversial, and he has no idea how they are going to work out, that and the fact if something goes wrong, he's screwed .... Just because you happen to like Cadsuane or whatever doesn't automatically make your opinion a state of fact ...

[RobertAlexWillis]

She's OLD, and she's a channeler ... The reason he didn't ask anyone else is because .... They would have no idea what so ever.

 

Bashere wouldn't know the political implications of a deal with the Seanchan? Other Aes Sedai wouldn't know the risks of using the Choedan Kal, attempting to cleanse the taint?

 

By the way, even making that response is an oblique admission that Cadsuane is wiser and more knowledgeable than most everyone else that Rand deals with.

 

That and the fact that both his plans are extremely controversial, and he has no idea how they are going to work out, that and the fact if something goes wrong, he's screwed

 

That just makes the fact that he told her in advance and asked her opinion more of an act of trust.

 

Hmm, so because he asks her opinion on two things, he now implicitly trusts her?

 

Since he's only tried to execute two major plans since she showed up, well, yeah.

 

Just because you happen to like Cadsuane or whatever doesn't automatically make your opinion a state of fact ...

 

I'm using examples from the story, my friend.

[BrainFireBob]

Character flaws aside' date=' his young body aside, Rand- inside his head- is not truly a 20 year old man.[/quote']

 

Everything Rand gets from Lews Therin is filtered through the vessel of insanity. The knowledge and experience he gains through memory is offset by the emotional instability that comes with it.

 

Cadsuane has a comparable number of years experience, in the present world, fully integrated in one personality, without being filtered through insanity.

 

Rand knows this, which is why he trusts her.

 

 

Which doesn't change the fact the derogatory nature of her "boy" perception is flawed and quite grating. For a mere boy, he's done quite well.

 

In her favor: She recognizes he has what is, in effect, a divine mandate and has a destiny. Means she's not trying to interfere with it, and is in fact trying to help enable it- evidence her not dwelling on how the sisters would have to "fix" what Rand has done- the Wheel may have wanted it changed, not Rand. Separating out his will from the Wheel's is a convoluted business, and the common Aes Sedai failing is their tendency to not realize this- evidence seeing his ta'veren-ness as something to be opposed, instead of working the will of destiny.

 

Against her: Denigrating perspective on Rand as a "mere" boy in many regards, failure to recognize that he does have a personal, polite relationship with everyone that isn't actively trying to oppose and manipulate him- evidence his personal knowledge of and relationships with his bodyguards and the servants- and possible misinterpretation of the "laughter and tears" prophecy, which may well refer to his women and his list, and not any broader humanism.

[phlpr23]

"Bashere wouldn't know the political implications of a deal with the Seanchan? Other Aes Sedai wouldn't know the risks of using the Choedan Kal, attempting to cleanse the taint?"

 

-Hmm, and was Bashere conveniently close that he could ask him? Aes Sedai have already proven in general their ignorance ... The only reason he asked Cadsuane is the fact in her long life, maybe she had some information she could help him with.

 

"By the way, even making that response is an oblique admission that Cadsuane is wiser and more knowledgeable than most everyone else that Rand deals with."

 

-Yeah, and what's your point? Most people that Rand deal with are simply fools ... I'm not denying that. Most people are jockeying for higher possitions of power. I don't see how this has anything to do with Rand "Truly trusting" Cadsuane.

 

"That just makes the fact that he told her in advance and asked her opinion more of an act of trust."

 

-Hmm, no it doesn't. It just emphasises the fact that was that worried about both situations. He already asked the Ael Finn (or however you spell it), and they told him what he needed to do. And, if he didn't do it, then he would surely fail ...

 

"Since he's only tried to execute two major plans since she showed up, well, yeah."

 

-You are ... incorrect. He also went to kill the Renegade Asha'man, and guess what? He didn't tell Cadsuane ...

 

"I'm using examples from the story, my friend."

 

-Yeah, and "conveniently" you also leave out part of the story. It's like saying everyone loves Vanilla, and then skipping the people that only like Chocolate.

[RobertAlexWillis]

he does have a personal, polite relationship with everyone that isn't actively trying to oppose and manipulate him

 

That one left me absolutely agog. He yelled at Logain for warning him about a division in the Black Tower. He has smashed up several rooms when he got bad news. And he is curt with everyone. Anytime he is confronted with the least objection, he is yelling within seconds.

 

Which doesn't change the fact the derogatory nature of her "boy" perception is flawed and quite grating.

 

Did you miss the part where she's doing that deliberately? It's calculated to point out stupidity, which is the only time she uses it.

 

Understand this too: behavior which could be overlooked or shrugged off in others can be very dangerous in Rand al'Thor, because of the very importance and prominence people use to defend him. His position as Dragon Reborn is a call to higher standards of behavior, not license for indulgence in fits of temper.

 

For a mere boy, he's done quite well.

 

No one is disputing that, least of all Cadsuane. She knows he cleansed the taint. What should she do, throw him a little party? Invite all his friends over to smash a pinata or six? She's dealing with what is still left to be done, not what has already passed, and so is Rand. He doesn't want her to become another booklicker, telling him how great and wonderful he is.

[phlpr23]

RobertAlexWillis, you skipped my post and didn't respond ...

[Luckers]

Which doesn't change the fact the derogatory nature of her "boy" perception is flawed and quite grating. For a mere boy, he's done quite well.

 

To be fair if he cant deal with a little name calling, then the Light has a much larger problem then wether Cadsuane is giving him his due respect.

 

Which is, i suspect, the reason she does it. Ever one to point out the elephant in the room, is our Cadsuane.

 

In her favor: She recognizes he has what is, in effect, a divine mandate and has a destiny. Means she's not trying to interfere with it, and is in fact trying to help enable it- evidence her not dwelling on how the sisters would have to "fix" what Rand has done- the Wheel may have wanted it changed, not Rand. Separating out his will from the Wheel's is a convoluted business, and the common Aes Sedai failing is their tendency to not realize this- evidence seeing his ta'veren-ness as something to be opposed, instead of working the will of destiny.

 

I'm not sure i would say devine mandate, but certainly a level of fatedness. And where i think she shows true character is in objectively looking at what he is doing for its own merits, and not that of the Tower.

 

Against her: Denigrating perspective on Rand as a "mere" boy in many regards, failure to recognize that he does have a personal, polite relationship with everyone that isn't actively trying to oppose and manipulate him- evidence his personal knowledge of and relationships with his bodyguards and the servants- and possible misinterpretation of the "laughter and tears" prophecy, which may well refer to his women and his list, and not any broader humanism.

 

You picked up in something there. Rand is polite (to a degree) as long as people follow him exactly. Any time they display a degree of opposition he throws a tantrum to bully them into doing as he says. This is a big problem, and something Cadsuane is addressing.

 

-Hmm, and was Bashere conveniently close that he could ask him? Aes Sedai have already proven in general their ignorance ... The only reason he asked Cadsuane is the fact in her long life, maybe she had some information she could help him with.

 

Indicating what? That he trusts her because she had knowledge and experience that can aid him. And she proceeds to do so. I don't see how this is a point against her.

 

As for the rest, Bashere was nearby, and easily asked. But instead Rand commands. The fact remains that the only person Rand trusts and respects enough to ask their opinion of is Cadsuane.

 

-Yeah, and what's your point? Most people that Rand deal with are simply fools ... I'm not denying that. Most people are jockeying for higher possitions of power. I don't see how this has anything to do with Rand "Truly trusting" Cadsuane.

 

I'm sorry... what?

 

You are ... incorrect. He also went to kill the Renegade Asha'man, and guess what? He didn't tell Cadsuane ...

 

That wasn't a plan, that was the pre-cursor to a plan. He needed them dead before he could cleanse saidin.

 

That one left me absolutely agog. He yelled at Logain for warning him about a division in the Black Tower. He has smashed up several rooms when he got bad news. And he is curt with everyone. Anytime he is confronted with the least objection, he is yelling within seconds.

 

Agreed. Just look at what occured in Tear. He yelled at Bera for getting him EXACTLY what he wanted.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Hmm, and was Bashere conveniently close that he could ask him?

 

Since he sent Bashere to SET UP THE TREATY, yes.

 

The only reason he asked Cadsuane is the fact in her long life, maybe she had some information she could help him with.

 

Other people have had information he wanted, but he didn't dare ask them because he couldn't trust them. He even has thoughts like that about Egwene before she leaves for Salidar. But Cadsuane he asks, because she has great experience AND he trusts her.

 

Hmm, no it doesn't. It just emphasises the fact that was that worried about both situations. He already asked the Ael Finn (or however you spell it), and they told him what he needed to do. And, if he didn't do it, then he would surely fail ...

 

Then why ask her at all? If it is only to allay his worry, then he must trust her not to reveal his plan or betray him. And if it is to use her knowledge and wisdom, then he must trust her to give him an honest opinion, not pander to his ego.

 

You are ... incorrect. He also went to kill the Renegade Asha'man, and guess what? He didn't tell Cadsuane ...

 

Did you miss the word "major" in my statement? Killing the Asha'man was a personal bit of revenge, and a stupid unnecessary risk. The plans to cleanse the taint and make a treaty with the Seanchan have world-wide risks and implications, making them "major" plans.

 

Yeah, and "conveniently" you also leave out part of the story. It's like saying everyone loves Vanilla, and then skipping the people that only like Chocolate.

 

Then please, enlighten us all by referencing the parts I left out.

 

RobertAlexWillis, you skipped my post and didn't respond ...

 

No, I didn't, I was typing the same time you were posting, and then I had to attend to some things in the real world. Calm yourself.