[Basic] Operation Domination - Game Over - Mafia Wins

[Asmodean-Mafia]

Halima, you're entire case against SH is about Moridin. The only point you bring up that has specifically to do with SH was Rand's login slip. Do you have any other points about SH's gameplay that make you think he is scum? What do you think of the new SH?

[Demandred-Mafia]

Firstly, anti-town is not the same thing as scummy. Townies can play badly, and Graendal arguably did not need to reveal when she did. However, that does not mean she's scum. The only way claiming at night helps scum is if a townie does it. (Scum already know all of their own roles; they are simply unsure as to where the power roles are in the town, which is why people shouldn't claim unnecessarily.)

 

Secondly, your voting for this reason is hypocritical. You were the one who backed off Moridin's case, unvoted, and asked for no counterclaims when Moridin claimed Doc. How is that pro-town? If you had wanted no counterclaims because you thought Moridin was obviously fakeclaiming, then you wouldn't have unvoted. You would have wanted to lynch the obvious scum. Instead, you just wanted to keep your teammate alive a bit longer; now you're trying to lynch a townie. We should lynch you tomorrow.

 

Anti-town is not always scummy but most times it is. I see no valid town reason for Graendal to have done what she did and a very obvious scum reason.

 

You are right, I didn't think Moridin was obviously fakeclaiming. I thought he most likely was but I didn't want to risk lynching or outing the doc D1. I wanted to leave Moridin to at least D3 or D4 or whenever the doc died if that happened first.

[Guest Halima-Mafia]

Halima, you're entire case against SH is about Moridin. The only point you bring up that has specifically to do with SH was Rand's login slip. Do you have any other points about SH's gameplay that make you think he is scum? What do you think of the new SH?

 

SH, if you remember, also defended Moridin. Again, I'm not saying that Rand's login slip was scummy. I just said that he was under pressure for that, from other people, and that Moridin - who was scum! - rushed to try to help. Are you suggesting that we should ignore Moridin (who, let me repeat, was scum!) when looking at SH's play?

 

New SH seems reasonable. Why do you ask? Do you want me to forget about the old SH now that we have a new one?

 

 

 

Anti-town is not always scummy but most times it is. I see no valid town reason for Graendal to have done what she did and a very obvious scum reason.

 

You are right, I didn't think Moridin was obviously fakeclaiming. I thought he most likely was but I didn't want to risk lynching or outing the doc D1. I wanted to leave Moridin to at least D3 or D4 or whenever the doc died if that happened first.

 

Okay, your refutation of my point (that the only way Graendal's claim could have helped scum was if she was town herself) seems to be that you can see a reason for scum to claim town. Well, out with it, then. Also, why didn't you give it when you voted?

 

And why did you decide to let somebody that you thought was probably fakeclaiming live? If you think he's probably fakeclaiming, you think he's probably scum. Why would a townie let scum stay alive?

[Demandred-Mafia]

The obvious reason for Graendal to claim as scum is to defuse the heat on her and to try to get town cred with her argument about mod vs. admin titles. It seems to have worked on Cyndane.

 

One doctor is worth more than one scum. I wanted to keep Moridin alive to keep the doctor alive. Lynching him without a counterclaim would have been too much risk of killing the doctor. And counterclaiming like you did also risks killing the doctor. I have no idea why you are still alive. I guess scum doesn't have a roleblocker.

[Demandred-Mafia]

Claiming doc as scum when you don't have a roleblocker is uber dumb btw.

[Asmodean-Mafia]

Halima, you're entire case against SH is about Moridin. The only point you bring up that has specifically to do with SH was Rand's login slip. Do you have any other points about SH's gameplay that make you think he is scum? What do you think of the new SH?

 

SH, if you remember, also defended Moridin. Again, I'm not saying that Rand's login slip was scummy. I just said that he was under pressure for that, from other people, and that Moridin - who was scum! - rushed to try to help. Are you suggesting that we should ignore Moridin (who, let me repeat, was scum!) when looking at SH's play?

 

New SH seems reasonable. Why do you ask? Do you want me to forget about the old SH now that we have a new one?

 

I was the lead voice against Moridin - no repetition necessary here, thanks. And the reason I ask about old and new SH is that I figure that a case made against any player ought to include actual evidence against them. Maybe that's just me, but it's always seemed to work in the past...

 

Let's agree that so far the game seems divided down the middle over Moridin - half of us think he shipped Rand. The other half think he rushed to the aid of a fellow mafia member.

 

Put into this context, SH can be seen as a valuable info lynch, which is about the only case against him that I see that makes any sense.

 

I'm just hopeful that folks all decide to speculate on all of the day 1/ night 1 events before there is any rush to lynch. A nice thorough discussion is what will benefit the town the most here.

 

 

 

 

Anti-town is not always scummy but most times it is. I see no valid town reason for Graendal to have done what she did and a very obvious scum reason.

 

You are right, I didn't think Moridin was obviously fakeclaiming. I thought he most likely was but I didn't want to risk lynching or outing the doc D1. I wanted to leave Moridin to at least D3 or D4 or whenever the doc died if that happened first.

 

Okay, your refutation of my point (that the only way Graendal's claim could have helped scum was if she was town herself) seems to be that you can see a reason for scum to claim town. Well, out with it, then. Also, why didn't you give it when you voted?

 

And why did you decide to let somebody that you thought was probably fakeclaiming live? If you think he's probably fakeclaiming, you think he's probably scum. Why would a townie let scum stay alive?

[Asmodean-Mafia]

Code fail - my response is in the WoT above. It starts with 'I was the lead voice against Moridin" and ends with the part about discussion.

[Red2111]

 

Deadline

 

Tuesday August 21st

 

 

Vote Count

 

SH (4): Graendal, Mordeth, Cyndane, Halima

Graendal (3): Demi, Asmo, Mesaana

 

No Vote: Belal, Moggy, Ishy, Lanny, Rahvin, Sammy, Semi, Aginor, Balth, SH, Dashiva

[Guest Halima-Mafia]

@ Red: "Halima", please.

 

@ Asmo: Okay. So, apart from a preference for cases based on evidence from the person themselves, where do you disagree with my case? I think it's pretty logical. There's plenty of stuff that SH (the replacement thing is a distraction, since the old one is still relevant) said that is incriminating, but the Moridin thing seems most compelling since it's based on hard evidence from the mod. I just think it makes no sense for Moridin to 'sheep' SH, and I've said why; nobody has explained to me why it does make sense. This is what I'd most like addressed.

 

I see that you're basing this on a gut feeling, which you've held ever since you entered the game:

 

Asmodean v.2 checking in.

 

A clever mafia might predict a day 1 flub from SH and be ready to rush in to defend him. I see no other reason for Moridin to stick his neck out like he did. My bet is that SH is not mafia - no mafia team is going to risk 2 players on day 1 - and that Moridin got greedy and sloppy in jumping in there to try and boost his town cred.

 

Unvote - Vote Moridin

 

You ask me for evidence specifically from SH, but your own position isn't based on any evidence or logic. By the way, how might a clever mafioso predict a day one flub from SH, unless he knew that SH was Rand?

 

Also, if the mafioso was clever, why would he defend SH so overtly? I think that if SH is town, the best play from Moridin would have been to defend him a bit - but not too much - and then allow SH to be lynched. SH is then revealed to be town, which would boost Moridin's town cred. Instead, Moridin seemed to be totally against an SH lynch. The only way that makes sense is if SH is scum.

 

 

The obvious reason for Graendal to claim as scum is to defuse the heat on her and to try to get town cred with her argument about mod vs. admin titles. It seems to have worked on Cyndane.

 

One doctor is worth more than one scum. I wanted to keep Moridin alive to keep the doctor alive. Lynching him without a counterclaim would have been too much risk of killing the doctor. And counterclaiming like you did also risks killing the doctor. I have no idea why you are still alive. I guess scum doesn't have a roleblocker.

 

Yeah, except that Graendal didn't have all that much heat on her when she claimed, at least in my estimation. She was only really arguing with Osangar at that point. The fact that it was at night also means that there was less pressure - nobody could vote for her, so there's little danger.

 

Regarding Moridin, you're still not making much sense. Doctors aren't worth more than scum. The main value of a doc to town is that they can occasionally stop a nightkill, if they're lucky. This means that the game lasts longer, giving the town more chance to lynch the scum. (The doc can also be powerful at endgame, but the chances of anybody making it through to endgame is quite unpredictable.) Now, counterclaiming as doc also extends the game by reducing the number of scum in the game, meaning that the scum have to kill off more townies in order to win. I'll take a certain scum lynch against the chance of blocking a nightkill any day. Job done; the fact I'm still alive is a bonus.

 

It comes back to fundamentals. Town win by lynching scum, not by keeping the doc alive - though that can help. Meh. I'm starting to feel like you're just a messed up townie, not scum.

[Graendal-Mafia]

Right now, I'd like to see how the new SH approaches his defense. It does look pretty bad for him that Moridin would come out and defend him like that, but I'm getting the vibe that it might have been a scum ploy that backfired. I don't get why a scum team would risk outing two of themselves on day 1 on that type of a play. Add to that the three quick votes that came right at the start of the day, and I'm not convinced that he's scum.

 

I can agree with the first sentence of this and have realised a reason to switch my vote anyways

 

Firstly, anti-town is not the same thing as scummy. Townies can play badly, and Graendal arguably did not need to reveal when she did. However, that does not mean she's scum. The only way claiming at night helps scum is if a townie does it. (Scum already know all of their own roles; they are simply unsure as to where the power roles are in the town, which is why people shouldn't claim unnecessarily.)

 

Secondly, your voting for this reason is hypocritical. You were the one who backed off Moridin's case, unvoted, and asked for no counterclaims when Moridin claimed Doc. How is that pro-town? If you had wanted no counterclaims because you thought Moridin was obviously fakeclaiming, then you wouldn't have unvoted. You would have wanted to lynch the obvious scum. Instead, you just wanted to keep your teammate alive a bit longer; now you're trying to lynch a townie. We should lynch you tomorrow.

 

Anti-town is not always scummy but most times it is. I see no valid town reason for Graendal to have done what she did and a very obvious scum reason.

 

You are right, I didn't think Moridin was obviously fakeclaiming. I thought he most likely was but I didn't want to risk lynching or outing the doc D1. I wanted to leave Moridin to at least D3 or D4 or whenever the doc died if that happened first.

 

I did say that before Halima CC'd Demandred, not sure why nobody remembers that post it was right under where I called Moridin out for Poet not being admin

 

Code fail - my response is in the WoT above. It starts with 'I was the lead voice against Moridin" and ends with the part about discussion.

 

You keep harping that you led the case on Moridin, you were actually really quiet when everyone voted him. Halima led the case on Moridin with her reveal. You weren't even voting for Moridin at the time. That's some nice leading from another train their buddy. I went through durring the whole CC'd thing and counted the votes, I was curious. You unvoted and moved to someone else, don't remember who. Then you come back with a majority already on Moridin and vote him "for obvious reasons." I hadn't thought much about it until I realised how hard you are trying to get people to believe you led the case on Moridin, yes you had s back and forth with him but you backed down.

 

Unvote Vote Asmo.

[Guest Halima-Mafia]

Graendal, can we lynch SH first?

[ShaidarHaran-Mafia]

If you lynch me, will you gain a good amount of information when I flip town?

 

Since it appears that most of the reason I'm a prime lynch candidate today is the whole thing with Moridin, there isn't much I can really do, defense-wise. I don't know what was going through Moridin's head, and I don't know what was going through mine at the time, but it was a big fiasco and obviously the only way some of you would be able to put your minds at rest would be to lynch me. I get that. I don't blame anyone who thinks I'm scum.

 

However, as I know that I'm town, I don't want to be a wasted lynch if most of what you'd lynch me for is to shoot for scum. So if I'll give you a lot of info regardless of my alignment, I won't fight being lynched.

 

In the meanwhile...bah, I have to go back and look at everything again. The first time I read it all I was having an out-of-body experience and didn't know who I was, so my perspective has been drastically altered now. But I will try to contribute as much as I can even as I do that.

[Guest Halima-Mafia]

What you can do, SH, is come up with a good case on somebody and lynch scum. I would think better of you after that.

[ShaidarHaran-Mafia]

As I'm skimming back through everything with fresh eyes, I had a sort of epiphany about the way I was acting before, at least in regards to the flailing and desperation. I'm not really posting this as a defense, mostly an observation, so feel free not to bother with it. But I feel the need to say it nonetheless.

 

It's rather embarrassing to slip up and break a rule in a game at any time. It's even more horrifying when it's one as crucial as only posting under your alt account. Then you have everyone gawking and ribbing you and you're afraid of the mod's wrath and I can just imagine how flustered I must have been in that situation. And then when it happens more than once, and you don't know why you keep messing up but it keeps happening and everyone's giving you crap about it, and you're probably getting a talking-to from the mod, you're going to be pretty freaked out at that point.

 

TL;DR - I feel pretty sympathetic for myself in that situation. I think if I were to bumble that badly even now I would be very upset. (aka I hope everyone's being nice to Rand because I bet he feels really bad right now)

 

 

ETA: Halima--Ha, I'm working on that. Don't have much more time tonight but I'm working on it. I still feel a tad disoriented so I'm fixing that.

[ShaidarHaran-Mafia]

Oh, and I assume that you don't necessarily mean I have to singlehandedly case and lead the lynch on a scumster before you'd be willing to look on me more kindly...Well, actually, no, you probably do mean that.

[Graendal-Mafia]

Oops unvote vote asmo

[Guest Halima-Mafia]

Oh, and I assume that you don't necessarily mean I have to singlehandedly case and lead the lynch on a scumster before you'd be willing to look on me more kindly...Well, actually, no, you probably do mean that.

 

Well, no. I'd settle for your playing a major part in casing the scumster.

[Osangar-Mafia]

bah...scum suck. Go town!!

[Rita Skeeter]

My reason for voting SH has to do with Moridin´s defens of him and also the way SH defended Moridin. We are so used to se WIFOM everywhere and believe in well thought out plots. Sometimes we forget to look at the simple scumtells as what it is - scumtells. I bet Mordinin said in the qt that no one would believe in that obvious scum protecting scum scenario so lets go for it.

[Asmodean-Mafia]

 

@ Asmo: Okay. So, apart from a preference for cases based on evidence from the person themselves, where do you disagree with my case? I think it's pretty logical. There's plenty of stuff that SH (the replacement thing is a distraction, since the old one is still relevant) said that is incriminating, but the Moridin thing seems most compelling since it's based on hard evidence from the mod. I just think it makes no sense for Moridin to 'sheep' SH, and I've said why; nobody has explained to me why it does make sense. This is what I'd most like addressed.

 

I see that you're basing this on a gut feeling, which you've held ever since you entered the game:

 

Asmodean v.2 checking in.

 

A clever mafia might predict a day 1 flub from SH and be ready to rush in to defend him. I see no other reason for Moridin to stick his neck out like he did. My bet is that SH is not mafia - no mafia team is going to risk 2 players on day 1 - and that Moridin got greedy and sloppy in jumping in there to try and boost his town cred.

 

Unvote - Vote Moridin

 

You ask me for evidence specifically from SH, but your own position isn't based on any evidence or logic. By the way, how might a clever mafioso predict a day one flub from SH, unless he knew that SH was Rand?

 

Also, if the mafioso was clever, why would he defend SH so overtly? I think that if SH is town, the best play from Moridin would have been to defend him a bit - but not too much - and then allow SH to be lynched. SH is then revealed to be town, which would boost Moridin's town cred. Instead, Moridin seemed to be totally against an SH lynch. The only way that makes sense is if SH is scum.

 

 

The way I see it is this: Rand slipped and posted without his alt. Then he did his funny little denial dance. He got criticized from a few players for it (I need to go back and re-read to see who they were). And then Moridin jumped in to defend him.

 

Before Moridin defended him, I really didn't give any thought to the entire episode - just wrote it off as day 1 silliness. When Moridin popped up to defend a point that I didn't feel needed defending (there was no real train building on SH), I took it to be a scum move. Scum know who is not mafia, and seeding a few defenses of town members is always beneficial to reflect back on when they inevitable get run up later in the game.

 

That's my logic.

 

Alternately, I have never seen - and I am serious - a scum team so inept that they get one member lynched needlessly defending another - and on no less than day 1. I hear the case that you and others are presenting - I even see the logic of it - I just can't believe that anyone would do anything so obvious.

[Asmodean-Mafia]

Right now, I'd like to see how the new SH approaches his defense. It does look pretty bad for him that Moridin would come out and defend him like that, but I'm getting the vibe that it might have been a scum ploy that backfired. I don't get why a scum team would risk outing two of themselves on day 1 on that type of a play. Add to that the three quick votes that came right at the start of the day, and I'm not convinced that he's scum.

 

I can agree with the first sentence of this and have realised a reason to switch my vote anyways

 

Firstly, anti-town is not the same thing as scummy. Townies can play badly, and Graendal arguably did not need to reveal when she did. However, that does not mean she's scum. The only way claiming at night helps scum is if a townie does it. (Scum already know all of their own roles; they are simply unsure as to where the power roles are in the town, which is why people shouldn't claim unnecessarily.)

 

Secondly, your voting for this reason is hypocritical. You were the one who backed off Moridin's case, unvoted, and asked for no counterclaims when Moridin claimed Doc. How is that pro-town? If you had wanted no counterclaims because you thought Moridin was obviously fakeclaiming, then you wouldn't have unvoted. You would have wanted to lynch the obvious scum. Instead, you just wanted to keep your teammate alive a bit longer; now you're trying to lynch a townie. We should lynch you tomorrow.

 

Anti-town is not always scummy but most times it is. I see no valid town reason for Graendal to have done what she did and a very obvious scum reason.

 

You are right, I didn't think Moridin was obviously fakeclaiming. I thought he most likely was but I didn't want to risk lynching or outing the doc D1. I wanted to leave Moridin to at least D3 or D4 or whenever the doc died if that happened first.

 

I did say that before Halima CC'd Demandred, not sure why nobody remembers that post it was right under where I called Moridin out for Poet not being admin

 

Code fail - my response is in the WoT above. It starts with 'I was the lead voice against Moridin" and ends with the part about discussion.

 

You keep harping that you led the case on Moridin, you were actually really quiet when everyone voted him. Halima led the case on Moridin with her reveal. You weren't even voting for Moridin at the time. That's some nice leading from another train their buddy. I went through durring the whole CC'd thing and counted the votes, I was curious. You unvoted and moved to someone else, don't remember who. Then you come back with a majority already on Moridin and vote him "for obvious reasons." I hadn't thought much about it until I realised how hard you are trying to get people to believe you led the case on Moridin, yes you had s back and forth with him but you backed down.

 

Unvote Vote Asmo.

 

Simply put, I am happy to let the record stand as I have stated it, and highly encourage everyone to do a re-read.

 

the facts:

 

1. I did lead the case against Moridin and went a few rounds with Demandred over his defense of Moridin.

2. You were focused on SH.

3. YOU DEFENDED MORIDIN AND SAID YOU BOUGHT HIS REVEAL. ONE MINUTE LATER, YOU GAVE YOURSELF SOME WIGGLE ROOM BY CASTING A LITTLE DOUBT ON THAT DECISION, BUT NOT REALLY ACTING ON IT.

3. I did change my vote as we got closer to the deadline, which I stated clearly when I did it. I will do this every time to prevent a random lynch or mod-promised wrath.

4. After the CC, I instantly changed my vote back as anyone would, no obvious explanation necessary.

 

If you are not scum, I will literally lmao and yours will go down as some of the absolute worst town play I have ever seen.

[Graendal-Mafia]

YOU DID NOT LEAD THE CASE ON HIM YOU BACKED DOWN THE TRAIN WAS DEAD WHEN HALIMA CC'D LEADING THE CASE IMPLIES THERE WAS STILL A CASE TO LEAD. If anything your back and forth almost saved Moridin because no one was listening to you.

 

Primarily yes I was focused on SH I've never denied that, but was willing before the reveal botched or not to go either SH or Moridin.

 

"I could buy that" is not me defended him. It was me taking the claim at face value when I shouldn't have because of a botch. I then realised that and stated my opinions with the next 2 posts.

 

We had plenty of time to case still if you were so sure you had scum you should have convinced people to switch to Moridin not move your own vote.

 

After the CC you had no choice, you were clearly screwed, you built distance between you and Moridin so you could bury your vote on SH when the train on Moridin died. You obviously weren't expecting the Doc to out themselves so early.

[Graendal-Mafia]

At this moment I'm leaning town on SH, scum on Asmo.

[Dashiva-Mafia]

Vote Graendal

[Graendal-Mafia]

It's cool I offered my self to be lynched a long time ago. Lynch that egotistic piece once I flip town though.