Seanchan Prophecy

[RescueMoraine]

My first post here.  I've been reading the books for decades.  Exitement over the pending completion of the series and the realease of TGS drew me here.  Yo!

 

If this topic does not belong here, my apologies.

 

It has been suggested elsewhere that Ishamael had twisted the Seanchan prophecies, specifically regarding the Dragon kneeling before the Crystal Throne.

 

My theory: This prophecy was not twisted.  It will come to pass.  The Crystal Throne is, in fact, a ter'angreal that "inspires awe in all who approach".  What's the most likely reaction to feeling awe at the presence of something like a throne?  To kneel.  Rand does not metaphorically bend knee to the seanchean in this prophecy, he literally kneels before the ter'angreal, activating it for some (likely very important) purpose. 

 

Thoughts?

[mb]

Robert Jordan implied that there would not be any more visits to Seanchan.

There are no plans to visit Seanchan in any greater extent than it already has been visited, and there are not going to be any visits to Shara either.

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/03/plots-characters-and-wheel-of-time.html

 

Unless the throne is brought to the main land, the ruler would be more probable instead.  (Thrones at times actually mean the people that sits on them.)

 

[RescueMoraine]

"...in any greater extent than it has already been visited". 

 

To me that leaves open a quick travel to Seanchan/use throne/travel back scenario ala Rand/Avienda.

 

Also because Fortuona has declared herself empress and clearly intends to stay put makes the retrieval of the throne likely, especially when considering her instistence about the fulfillment of this prophecy.

 

Regardless of how the scenario plays out, the prophecy will be fulfilled.  The power of the throne will be needed by Rand for some purpose and the only way to activate the throne will be for him to kneel before it.  RJ put this apparent prophecy contradiction in place for a reason; to again illustrate the pitfalls of phrophecy interpretation from a rigid point of view.  The Seanchan see the Chrystal Throne as a figurative representation of their government and power, so they have interpreted the prophecy to mean that The Dragon will bend kneee to the Seanchan.  In a literal sense, the throne is something else intirely, so the prophecy could be fulfilled without the political implications.

[MikeRiley]

If kneeling before the throne would activate it for some important purpose (other than to fulfill a prophecy), then how many times would it have been activated in the past? It would require the Dragon-soul recognition given to the ter'angreal in Rhuidean and to Callandor in Tear, and if that was the case, the Aes Sedai would have made it activate for the one sitting on the throne instead of kneeling to it. The one is far more likely.

 

I think the whole prophecy was set in place by Ishamael just as it's generally believed here.. He wanted to get the Seanchans' backs up and get them to build a conquering army to cause chaos on the mainland when the time was right. He has them full of themselves and sure they're going to win, and so for that reason they will not give up.

 

Remember that the Dark One doesn't intend to win through his lackeys and open war, otherwise they would be going around burning cities right now. From the beginning he has been ordering his minions (the forsaken) to spread chaos among the Light's ranks. "Let the Lord of Chaos rule."

[RescueMoraine]

How many times in the past has a man who could channel knelt before that throne?  I'd say very few to none.  There certainly haven't been any men sitting on it in a very long time.  Also kneeling may only be part of what's reqiured to use it, like the chair of remorse.  Or, as you mention, it could have soul-recognition.  There are lots of possibilities. 

 

What do the Aes Seadai have to do with it?  The throne is currently in Seanchan...

 

I guess we will RAFO.  Prophecy manipulation by Ishy seems plausible too but we don't have any direct proof of that so I still like my theory.  In one way or another, RJ's prophecy's are always fulfilled.  I think Rand would sooner destroy the Seanchan than bend knee to them.

[Myyrth]

Part of me still wishes that Rand had humbled the Seanchan some using the Choeden Kal.  You know.. torch a few palaces, annihilate a few standing armies, put the fear of the Dragon in them as they say.

[RescueMoraine]

Yeah I too was hoping he'd give them a serious wake up call.  The Seanchan are much too full of themselves and need to be knocked down a peg or 3.  

 

However Rand doesn't need the choden kal to exert some persuasion on Fortuona.  He just needs to expose the hypocrisy of the Seanchan's views towards channelers and tear down their belief system.  I think somehow the throne, and Rand kneeling before it, will come into play to accomplish this.

 

Edit:  Took out TGS spoiler.  Oopsy! 

[MikeRiley]

How many times in the past has a man who could channel knelt before that throne?  I'd say very few to none.  There certainly haven't been any men sitting on it in a very long time.  Also kneeling may only be part of what's reqiured to use it, like the chair of remorse.  Or, as you mention, it could have soul-recognition.  There are lots of possibilities. 

 

What do the Aes Seadai have to do with it?  The throne is currently in Seanchan...

 

I guess we will RAFO.  Prophecy manipulation by Ishy seems plausible too but we don't have any direct proof of that so I still like my theory.  In one way or another, RJ's prophecy's are always fulfilled.  I think Rand would sooner destroy the Seanchan than bend knee to them.

 

 

Many, many men who could have channeled would have knelt before it. They weren't exactly rare as we see by Rand's Black Tower recruitment. Unless you argue that having the ability to channel isn't the same as knowing how.

 

The Aes Sedai have everything to do with it because they were the ones that made the crystal throne.

[RescueMoraine]

Its true that male channelers aren't as rare as once thought.  However it's interesting you point that out because I've always thought having all of these male channelers come out of the woodwork all of a sudden after they had been systematically eliminated from the gene pool for 3000 years was a bit suspicious.  Where did they all come from?  Maybe the reds were sloppy. 

 

We don't know what's going on in Seanchan by comparison.  I would bet that the Seanchan were far more successful and effecient in controlling their male channeler population.  There very well could be very few to none over there.  But who knows?

 

And again the throne could have a soul-recognition element.  Or another controlling element for true activation of the throne could be necessary, i.e. you must first kneel then sit upon it or channel at it or have another item on your person. 

 

Or maybe someone else activates it while sitting on it and bestows something upon a kneeling Rand.  There are lots of ways this prophcy could be fulfilled without requiring Rand to bend knee to the Seanchan.  Maybe I'm grasping because if that happened it would ruin the story for me.  The Seanchan's power comes from slavery.  I cant imagine a force of good abiding that, for any reason.

 

[J-Rad]

Its true that male channelers aren't as rare as once thought.  However it's interesting you point that out because I've always thought having all of these male channelers come out of the woodwork all of a sudden after they had been systematically eliminated from the gene pool for 3000 years was a bit suspicious.  Where did they all come from?  Maybe the reds were sloppy.

 

Most of the men in the Black Tower aren't born with the spark.  We are only informed of 4 people in the series (not including Forsaken) who had the spark, Rand, Taim, Logain, and someone who Taim found in LoC, as far as we know the rest were taught and as far as we know, only people who have the spark actualy channel without any outside influence.

 

Also I remember reading somewhere that the ability to channel has more to do with the person's soul than it does genetics.  Thus, it is impossible to completley remove the ability to channel.

 

All in all I think the whole cyrstal throne ter'angreal thing is plausible, but I just don't see it happening.

 

There are no plans to visit Seanchan in any greater extent than it already has been visited, and there are not going to be any visits to Shara either.

dang it, I wanted to see Shara  :'(

 

[MikeRiley]

Or maybe someone else activates it while sitting on it and bestows something upon a kneeling Rand.  There are lots of ways this prophcy could be fulfilled without requiring Rand to bend knee to the Seanchan.  Maybe I'm grasping because if that happened it would ruin the story for me.  The Seanchan's power comes from slavery.  I cant imagine a force of good abiding that, for any reason.

 

 

You're assuming that the throne was created by the Seanchan for the Seanchan. If the Crystal Throne was part of the prophecies and had Dragon soul recognition it would have been created during or shortly after the Age of Legends and the Seanchan didn't exist then. The nation is only its temporary resting place. The Seanchan themselves are the product of a loose forsaken and having nothing to do with the Light. Prophecies that are completely unique to Seandar which is housed by a tool of the forsaken, involving the kneeling of the dragon before a ter'angreal that inspires awe in the one sitting on it? Ishamael made sure the Seanchan would never surrender to the Dragon. They would believe their prophecy must be fulfilled and they couldn't lose.

[mb]

Not sure if the Crystal Throne would need to be activated.  There might be a chance that it was always activated.

 

If there any more visits to Seanchan in the main series, they would most likely happen off-screen.

 

I think kneeling to the ruler is more probable than the actual chair.

It would most likely happen through a male adam.