Channelers and thermo dynamics

[Luckers]

If the Wheel will turn forever, entropy can't increase.  If entropy increases, the Universe would suffer heat death, and the Ages would not come and go with the turning of the Wheel.

 

Not nessasarily. It would depend on the transition between turnings.

 

Quote from: Luckers on Today at 06:40:15 AM

It's not being 'made', its being 'excited'.

 

Oh, yeah. And where does that energy come from? From the One Power, of course.

 

In a sense, yes--i mean, technically the energy in this scenario is the heat, and that's produced by the excited electrons. But yes, the originating source of that excitation, the basis of the subsequent production of kinetic energy is indeed the One Power.

 

What is your point? Did you think i was denying the One Power was involved?

 

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There is no more energy being added here than when you slide your feet back and forth and shock someone.

 

Yes, there is. Because the energy your muscles are making use of are bound as chemical energy. It comes from the food you eat. It is already there. But the energy from the One Power isn't already present in the WoT universe. Instead it comes from the One Power.

 

Of course it is already present. Its stated many times that the One Power co-exists with the percievable reality. The One Power, through dualistic induction, induces chemical, atomic or quantum reactions thus causes the resulting effects.

 

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That channler alters to flow of the power, which due to the dualism causes electrons to move in ways they wouldn't have otherwise.

 

The energy comes from the One Power. It is not part of the world, "the system", before the channeler channels it. Then the energy becomes a part of the univers, or "the system".

 

Again, of course it is a part of the system. The One Power is a part of reality.

 

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Yes, it does take energy--in the case of the annode its ultraviolet electromagnetic waves, in this case is the dualistic induction of the manipulation of the power.

 

What are you talking about? If you're talking about a battery, then no, there are no "ultraviolet electromagnetic waves".

 

I was speaking to my reference to solar energy as an analogy. Ultraviolet being the electromagnetic wave with enough energy to incite electrons to jump. That little thing called the ultraviolet catastrophy and all that.

 

It's not actually relevant. The point was in showing how a seperate and distinct source could provide the energy for something. A pointless analogy which clearly didn't serve its purpose since you don't seem to have understood the point it was attempting to simplify. Never mind.

 

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The energy, by the way, does not come from outside the created world.

It comes from the One Power. The One Power supplies the energy for the Wheel, but it is not part of the Wheel.

 

I'm afraid you are wrong.

 

 

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The One Power is stated many times to co-exist in the same time and space as the the world.

 

....... Oh, and so what? By the way, where is the One Power stated to be a part of the Wheel or the world? A quote from somewhere?

 

Umm... so the power exists within the same universe as the wheel--it is a part of the wheel, they are the universe... being why people can sense it everywhere, because it is everywhere, permeating reality.

 

You do understand what 'permeate' means, right?

 

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Heat can exist as vibrations in the matter, as photons and as waves. Dissipated heat is still energy. Whether it goes into outer space or somewhere else in the universe.

 

I don't disagree... but I'm not sure how that comment is relevent to anything I said.

 

It is relevant for how things work in the real world.

 

Which is relevant to my comment about the lack of a percievable decrease in local heat when using the power to excite electrons in order to produce heat... how precisely?

 

I mean let me offer you one in return. Muons are particals the exist longer than they should (from our frame of reference) because they travel near the speed of light. Thats relevant to how things work in the real world, and utterly irrelevant here. You made your comment as if it had some relevance to mine. Please explain it.

 

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Exciting electrons takes energy. From the worlds perspective, it would be energy added to the created world. Unless we would think the One Power is part of the world, but I think we can safely say that it isn't part of the world.

Actually we know as a fact that it is. It's stated several times.

 

The One Power drives the Wheel. Do you have a quote that the energy that comes from the One Power is a part of the world? Because I don't believe it.

 

You mean like how localised disturbances in the Power manifest themselves in the real world, as with Ebou Dar when they can see bits of saidar in the air? Or how bout how channelers sense the source all around them, permeating reality.

 

I mean really, are you confused as to how the True Source exists in relation to the world? We arn't speaking of you choosing to believe something here--this is the stated case. The True Source is everywhey, they can draw on it constantly.

 

In terms of this world it is a part of the cosmological whole. It is not a seperate universe, distinct from the Wheel, it is a part of it. It is the energy that drives it. The universe includes the Power.

 

In the real world, heat energy would just continue out into space. No energy is lost from the universe. It just travels farther away (in the form of heat radiation).  The entropy of the real world increases all the time. But not in the WoT universe. What force drives this conservation of entropy? It is the One Power. Why does the sun not go nova in the WoT universe? It is the One Power. The One Power drives the Wheel, and I think the One Power comes from the Creator. Just like the True Power comes from the Dark One. Both the Creator and the Dark One are outside the world and outside the Wheel.

 

You mistook me, i understand the concept of entropy, I'm questioning why you can claim that entropy does not increase in the WoT world.

 

And why wouldn't the sun go nova? Presumably it must at some stage during the cycle of turnings. Unless perhaps each turning ends prior to that occuring which is possible.

[Alghar Khan]

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There is no more energy being added here than when you slide your feet back and forth and shock someone.

 

Yes, there is. Because the energy your muscles are making use of are bound as chemical energy. It comes from the food you eat. It is already there. But the energy from the One Power isn't already present in the WoT universe. Instead it comes from the One Power.

Of course it is already present. Its stated many times that the One Power co-exists with the percievable reality. The One Power, through dualistic induction, induces chemical, atomic or quantum reactions thus causes the resulting effects.

Yeah, the One Power co-exists with the world. But you're claiming that it is a part of the world, and it is not a part of the world. It is outside the world, at least until it powers the Wheel or until a channeler channels it.

 

 

 

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The One Power is stated many times to co-exist in the same time and space as the the world.

 

....... Oh, and so what? By the way, where is the One Power stated to be a part of the Wheel or the world? A quote from somewhere?

 

Umm... so the power exists within the same universe as the wheel--it is a part of the wheel, they are the universe... being why people can sense it everywhere, because it is everywhere, permeating reality.

 

You do understand what 'permeate' means, right?

I did not say that it exists within the same universe as the Wheel. That was all you.

 

 

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Heat can exist as vibrations in the matter, as photons and as waves. Dissipated heat is still energy. Whether it goes into outer space or somewhere else in the universe.

 

I don't disagree... but I'm not sure how that comment is relevent to anything I said.

 

It is relevant for how things work in the real world.

 

Which is relevant to my comment about the lack of a percievable decrease in local heat when using the power to excite electrons in order to produce heat... how precisely?

I guess it isn't relevant to your comment, since you seem to think that the One Power is a part of the world.

 

 

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Exciting electrons takes energy. From the worlds perspective, it would be energy added to the created world. Unless we would think the One Power is part of the world, but I think we can safely say that it isn't part of the world.

Actually we know as a fact that it is. It's stated several times.

 

The One Power drives the Wheel. Do you have a quote that the energy that comes from the One Power is a part of the world? Because I don't believe it.

 

You mean like how localised disturbances in the Power manifest themselves in the real world, as with Ebou Dar when they can see bits of saidar in the air? Or how bout how channelers sense the source all around them, permeating reality.

 

I mean really, are you confused as to how the True Source exists in relation to the world? We arn't speaking of you choosing to believe something here--this is the stated case. The True Source is everywhey, they can draw on it constantly.

You did not answer the question. You keep saying that it is said repeatedly that the One Power is an inherent part of the world. I've seen no quote that supports your claim.

 

 

In terms of this world it is a part of the cosmological whole. It is not a seperate universe, distinct from the Wheel, it is a part of it. It is the energy that drives it. The universe includes the Power.

A quote that supports you? I've yet to see one.

 

 

 

You mistook me, i understand the concept of entropy, I'm questioning why you can claim that entropy does not increase in the WoT world.

The end-result of whatever that goes on during endless turnings of the Wheel is a world where people can still live. You've got an endless supply of energy, the One Power. It makes sure that humans, plants and so on can live in a world that stays the same. The sun never goes nova and so on. The entropy on the planet where these people live is keeping it's entropy. The same with their sun. I don't know about the rest of the WoT universe.

 

And why wouldn't the sun go nova? Presumably it must at some stage during the cycle of turnings. Unless perhaps each turning ends prior to that occuring which is possible.

If it did go nova, then all living things are gone. A whole new earth and sun would have to be created. But we know that the Wheel is endless. And we know that RJ said the following (dragoncon 05):

Q99 - Part 1: In the Wheel of Time there is focus on events occurring again and again throughout history. Is it just history which is circular, or is it time itself which is in a loop?

 

RJ: If you think of history being in a loop, then time must be in a loop. The Greeks were the first, as far as we know, to think of time being linear which allows for change. Almost every other culture prior to them had believed in circular time, if time is a wheel there is no possibility of change. Whatever I change now, whatever injustices I correct, the wheel will inevitably return, the inequities will return, there is no possibility for change, therefore there is not impetus to change. So time and history are in a loop in this world, a large enough loop..ah…it is really quite immense.

 

Q100 - Part 2: So, the sun will never go nova, will never die?

 

RJ: In this universe, no.

 

 

 

[Alghar Khan]

From the Big White Book:

The Great Wheel is the very heart of all time. But even the Wheel requires energy... This energy comes from the True Source, from where the One Power can be drawn.

...combined with:

Working both together and against one other within the True Source, it is saidin and saidar which provide the driving force that turns the Wheel of Time.

 

The same chapter says that the Wheel weaves the Lace of Ages. Meaning that the Wheel weaves essentially everything we've ever read about in the series, and much more than that. The world of Randland is part of the Lace of Ages.