The Two Dragons

[Luckers]

I think mat was saying the weave of THAT moment is what was significant. We saw the pattern force two False Dragons to fall, potentially raise and display Rand battle and a couple of other things. In that moment the wheel was forcing a number of unnatural things to take place, and i believe that was the point.

 

My point is different though. Hawkwings words and manner imply to me desire... for romantic purposes or whatever. It's like the old pilot movies were the pilot feels the need for his lucky cigar or whatever... it was dramatics. Rand was present and Hawkwing and the other heroes ready once more to follow the Dragon into battle as they had done many times before, and so Hawkwing asked for a trapping... a meaningless thing that had more to do with mood then need.

 

The fact that that banner and Rands soul can't have been there every time the horn was blown, AND the fact that we have direct quotes from within the series specifically stating that others besides the dragon, and indeed the light, can use the horn more then supports this.

[Old Skool]

The fact is, what we read in the books is speculation by the characters themselves. Moiraine belives that the shadow can use the horn, however, she is only speculating. NOONE had any idea where the Horn was, the obvious is that LTT had it put in the eye of the world. And for that matter, it has remained there for so long. That means you don't know that the Dragon's soul doesnt need to be there every time, Luckers, for much is unknown in the AOL and the time before that. AS to the direct quotes, as mentioned before, the characters that speak them are merely speculating on the possibilities that the HoV may work for the Shadow. They do not actually know themselves. As for the idea that it is a "romantic purpose," am lead to belive differently as AH uses the words "must" and "something is wrong here." AH then turns sharply to Rand. To me, that does not display "romantic purpose," rather, the NEED of the banner, not the desire. Who's to say the banner has not been there every time? Who's to say that the HoV has been sounded before? Maybe it was designed for the current age, (even though it has been around for some time.) Also the Dragon Banner is always described as something made of the OP, it may have been aound since the "beginning," it lasted the breaking didnt it?

[Guest Majsju]

the obvious is that LTT had it put in the eye of the world

 

LTT was long dead when the EOTW was created, read Rand's trip to Rhuidean to learn who put it there.

 

Also the Dragon Banner is always described as something made of the OP, it may have been aound since the "beginning," it lasted the breaking didnt it?

 

Travel back to the 15th century wearing a shirt printed using todays technology, and 99% of the people will believe it's magic. When you have something like the OP, it's very easy to use that to explain everything you can't understand. Like things made by a technology you've never seen.

 

And it survived the breaking because, well, TEOTW appears to have been quite unaffected.

[Old Skool]

Well Maj, do you agree or disagree with the idea on the HoV? You seemed to not mention that? So i'm curious on your beliefs.

[Guest Majsju]

I thought I had made my take on the HoV pretty clear. Ah well, short version: LTT/Rand is not tied to the Horn. That Hawkwing talks about needing the banner to ride in TGH is something unique to that specific moment. It's a keypoint, the Wheel demands a Dragon, we've seen this with how many false dragons that has come out in very short time, and we see it in Rand's battle with Ishamael over Falme, that the battle is displayed all over the fields is a doing by the Wheel, the Dragon Reborn has gone to battle under the dragon banner, and thus has proclaimed himself.

 

It's a unique situation. The rest of the time the Heroes are not bound to the banner. And how could they be? The Dragon was a title given to LTT, the banner was his personal. But the HoV predates LTT, it predates AOL, and was never used in the AOL. When Mat blows the horn it's the first time ever the heroes and the banner are there at the same time.

[Luckers]

As for the idea that it is a "romantic purpose," am lead to belive differently as AH uses the words "must" and "something is wrong here." AH then turns sharply to Rand. To me, that does not display "romantic purpose," rather, the NEED of the banner, not the desire.

 

Are you aware of the nature of the bannerman in medieval times? It was a position of great honour and great importance. This likely resulted from the incredibly high mortality rate. During those times people did the wise thing of glorifying stupid positions so that some idiot would actually do that. In any case, a persons banner held all their honour, and for it to be given into the hands of a peasent (as was usually the case) was a large thing.

 

Much of the fighting of the time gained a certain ritualistic manner. Again due to the likliehood of death in my opinion. The bannerman was the centrepoint of this ritual. The whole marching order, wearing absurd decorations that made armour heavier, the honour of being in the vanguard. All the glorification of an idiotic past-time that was, nonetheless vital to the survival or these people 9 times out of 10.

 

The significance of this is that Hawkwing was following that ritualistic air--without nessasarily realising it, indeed even RJ needn't have known to follow. Things like that become bred in custom, its why children inevitably strike gunslinger poses or the like. We know without being told and without being aware. That being said i dont doubt that RJ DID in fact know. He displays it several times, for instance Pevin's role was almost perfectly that of the bannerman to Rand. Loyal, unspeaking, almost non-existant and with no real instinct for self-preservation (which reminds me, what happened to Pevin? Did he just disapear?)

 

It's kinda like how a footy player might have his lucky socks, or something. Think about those phrases in that sort of pseudo-religious and they make a whole lot of sense.

[nescedral]

I'm inclined to agree that the banner needn't be there every time. If it was always required, wouldn't that have been the first thing out of Hawkwing's mouth? "Hey, hornsounder, we're here, now where's the banner?" Instead, he tries to take off and fight, and then notices "something holds me". At that moment, he notices Rand and continues on by pretty much saying, "oh hey Lews, didn't see you there. Got your banner with you?"

 

I agree that regardless of whether the banner is always required, the pattern certainly required it at that moment. "The weave of this moment is set." Whether it is always required when the Dragon is present, will be impossible to prove. It would really suck, however, if Mat blew the Horn for the Last Battle and the heroes all showed up, asking for the banner, and Rand was like, "darn, now where did I put that thing?". Anybody know where the original power-wrought banner from the Eye of the World is?

 

Despite all this, it is interesting to note that the banner and the horn were hidden away together, almost as if they were meant to be used together. Take that how you will.

[Luckers]

Except they weren't always together, at another stage we see the Banner and Callandor together, and no Horn. The group of Aes sedai saw to the placing of these various artifacts, likely including the Seals and some other stuff too, and did it based on their understanding of a foretelling about Rands life. They chose to place the Horn with the Banner... though whether that was because they knew both would be needed or that it was simply an easy way of keeping it so that both ended up in Rand's hands is... a questionable thing.

[seoman]

the good thing is we can argue about the souls unless RJ say the truth; it seems the death is the end of the body but not the soul, somehow it is recycled to use it again. As i believe It´s here where the darkone can touch the souls for sometime and only if the soul-body touched the darkness during his bodylife(in other way would be impossible to put up any ressistence to the darkone, and the humankind would have no freedom to decide). I see the wheel is able to bind some souls to it, the heros, and this souls are out of the normal recycling soul factory, they keep the body memories and they are somewhere in the dreamworld; but i believe this souls must be somehow separated from the world of dreams, like an special chamber tied to the wheel with a door comunicating with this world.

I think Rand and LTT share the same soul, the problem is the soul has the memories of two lifes and it behaves as two different persons... that points to when and why the soul of rand began to remind its past life. Maybe is a soul binded to the wheel like a hero, or it is a unique case as the champion of the creator to oposse the darkone.

A soul with different memories must has a kind of barrier between them to keep the integrity of the personality, and perhaps the taint of saidin broke that barrier, a little hole in the begining that growed with time.

Other case is Luc-Isam, they are like two souls in one body, they share one body one representation in the world of two souls. It seems he can enter the world of dreams in the flesh and he can change his body depending the soul is in charge in this world, but i believe he can´t do that in the waking world.

 

I know there are lot of holes in this theory so be understanding please jejeje