The Two Dragons

[Guest Lord Captain Valda]

To start off with, THIS IS NOT MY THEORY, though albeit a good one I believe in. This theory was posted on wotmania.com by AshaShan. It is about the connection between Slayer and Rand and I believe anyone who hasnt already seen it should. If this has already been brought up I am sorry. It is fairly long but stick with it because the length is the proof.

 

Link: http://www.wotmania.com/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=716&Category=Archetype

[Aemon raHal]

That link didn't work for me... but this one did:

 

http://www.wotmania.com/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=716

 

 

Anyways, Don't think I agree.

Wouldn't LTT's soul have been spun out when Rand was born? If so, how could they have merged in TAR if Rand is LTT reborn anyway?

 

Whats with the LTT killed Asmodean thing?

And about Verin, can't u channel in a Stedding using a Well? Somebody commented on Far Madding there when Cadusuane and Nyn used them there.

 

Liked that person's comment about Bashere killing Asmodean though...

 

 

 

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[Guest Majsju]

The guy writing the theory has made so many blatant mistakes that it's really hard to take him very serious.

 

that his body is that of Rand’s uncle Luc Mantear while his “soul†is split, merged, shared between Luc’s and the soul of Lan’s cousin Isam

 

Wrong. Slayer can switch body in T'A'R, so we don't know which one is his "real". It's possible the merge was physical so that both bodies are equally real.

 

I am almost 100% sure that the relationship between Luc and Isam is the exact same as the relationship between Rand and Lews Therin, but that the Slayer is at a much more advanced stage than the Dragon. In other words, I fear that Rand will end up merged with Lews Therin as Luc and Isam are if he is not separated from LTT somehow; and soon, as he already seems to be losing some of his humanity.

 

We don't know how Isam and Luc was merged into one person, but we do know that it was a merge between two living people. LTT on the other hand is 3000 years dead, does not possess a physical body of his own, and only exist because he shares the soul with rand. There is absolutely no connection between the two.

 

Luc’s body has never been seen to shift into that of Isam’s in the corporeal plane, that only happens when they are inside the dreamworld

 

Slayer can't shift body in the real world, he must do it in T'A'R.

 

This Slayer is not old, archer, but his evil is ancient.†From that it can be taken as certainty that possessions like this one have happened in the past

 

"His evil is ancient"...Could it possibly be a reference to his quite obvious to the DO, the most ancient evil in the world?

 

So then my theory is this: could Rand’s entering TAR in the flesh have left him vulnerable to a merging of sorts with Lews Therin? Who by the evidence of the Heroes and Ishamael’s beliefs, exists in TAR between being spun out to battle the Shadow and serve the pattern

 

1. There is nothing that indicates that LTT would be a Hero, I'd say rather on the contrary.

2. The WO's warns about losing your humanity when entering T'A'R. If the danger was a merging with your past incarnation, only reborn Heroes would ahve to worry. And that still has no connection to Slayer. Nothing says that his merge was done in T'A'R, only that some of his abilities are tied to it.

 

Personally, I suspect that Isam is already dead, and has been for some time, but that he first haunted and then took over Luc, just as LTT is threatening to do with Rand.

 

And there's a major flaw. Luc is not Isam reborn. Also, they have a completely different relationship than Rand and LTT. Rand and LTT constantly experience memories, thoughts etc flowing between them, their merging seems to be slowly into becoming one personality made of a mix between them. Luc and Isam on the other hand are two separate personalities. Aware of their relationship, and as we saw in WH, handing over control willingly.

 

And that wasn't even halfway through the post...Phew!

[Guest Lord Captain Valda]

Maj, you say "we dont know" this and "we dont know" that, but if you read the whole thing you would realize that too many of these things are similar just to be a coincidence. It is not the ordianry "this is Slayer" thread and it would be intersting if this actually turned out this way. Just try hard to actually give it a chance.

 

Here we go in order of your arguments:

1.WE DONT KNOW

2.HOW DO WE KNOW IT WAS TWO LIVING PEOPLE? LTT COULD POSESS A BODY IN TAR PERHAPS LIKE BIRGITTE(SP)

3. YOU MADE A POINT FOR THE THEORY.

4. WTF? YOURE SUGGESTING SLAYER IS THE DO?

5.A) I AGREE LTT ISNT A HERO BUT DOES THAT STOP HIM FROM BEING IN TAR?

B) NOTHING SAYS HE WASNT MERGED IN TAR AND THERE ARE OTHER DANGERS IN TAR FOR PEOPLE WHO ARENT HEROES.

6. NO LUC IS NOT ISAM REBORN. THIS IS WHERE THE WHOLE "LUC/ISAM ADVANCED RAND/LTT" COMES IN. THEY COULD SWITCH PERSONALITIES EFFECTIVELY AND IF RAND HAD ANOTHER 3000 YEARS WITH LTT MAYBE HE COULD TOO.

 

PLEASE MAJ HAVE AN OPEN MIND TO THE THEORY BEFORE YOU COMPLETELY SHUT IT DOWN.

[Guest Majsju]

Keeping an open mind is all fine and dandy, but first everything should be examined with a critical mind, and noticing the flaws.

 

 

1.We don't know.

 

We do however know that Slayer can use both bodies in the physical world, and from what we can extract from his POV, he chooses his appearance based on what he think is "proper", or which personality would enjoy what he's doing the most.

 

2.How do we know it was two living people? LTT could posess a body in TAR perhaps like Birgitte(SP)

 

We can safely assume that Isam was alive and well when he got the jump on Luc. Both lived within their normal lifespans when they met. Unlike LTT, who's been dead for 3000 years, and resides in the body where his soul is reborn.

As for the second part, what do you mean? Birgitte possessing a body in T'A'R? She's never done that. The body she used there is "her own" (as much as it can be your own body when you're firmly dead, and existing in a place like T'A'R. And if you refer to the incident when Rand battled with Rahvin, the only time we've seen the slightest hint of LTT in T'A'R, he had started to influence Rand's mind much earlier.

 

3. You made a point for the theory.

 

Not exactly, though I should have phrased it different. The transformation has to take place in T'A'R, it doesn't matter who changes into who.

 

4. WTF? You're suggesting that Slayer is the DO?

 

No, but that the Slayer is a creation of the DO.

 

5.A) I agree LTT isnt a hero but does that stop him from being in TAR?

 

The only ones we know exist in T'A'R are the Heroes, and that's only inbetween incarnations. When they are reborn they leave T'A'R. So even if LTT was a special case and resided in T'A'R as well between incarnations, he would have left it when Rand was born.

 

B) Nothing says he wasnt merged in TAR and there are other dangers in TAR for people who arent heroes.

 

I agree that there are other dangers for people who aren't heroes. That's exactly the point.

If you want to compare things, use incidents with some similarity. Like Egwene. She entered T'A'R in the flesh for her journey from Cairhien to Salidar, that ride took several hours, which is far longer than the time Rand had spent in T'A'R when we saw LTT's brief appearance in Caemlyn. And yet, we have seen no sign of Egwene hearing any voices.

 

6. NO LUC IS NOT ISAM REBORN. THIS IS WHERE THE WHOLE "LUC/ISAM ADVANCED RAND/LTT" COMES IN. THEY COULD SWITCH PERSONALITIES EFFECTIVELY AND IF RAND HAD ANOTHER 3000 YEARS WITH LTT MAYBE HE COULD TOO.

 

The sole reason for LTT being in Rand's mind is that they share a soul through reincarnation. We've also seen through both Cadsuane and Semirhage that the taint plays a part in how LTT can interact with Rand. Slayer is not a channeler, so the taint can't touch him.

[Luckers]

Indeed. Aside from that the simple nature of Rand LTT is not in the same mesure at the connection between Luc and Isam. It's not even close.

[loki redfern]

5.A) I agree LTT isnt a hero but does that stop him from being in TAR?

 

The only ones we know exist in T'A'R are the Heroes, and that's only inbetween incarnations. When they are reborn they leave T'A'R. So even if LTT was a special case and resided in T'A'R as well between incarnations, he would have left it when Rand was born.

 

LTT not a hero?

isnt the definition of a hero someone who the wheel spins out again and again. as hawkwing says "i have fought against you as many times as with you"

[Luckers]

Indeed. Wether or not that is a physical representation is is a an identifiably soul, indicating heroism. Combined with the other indications i dont see an anti-hero argument.

[Guest Majsju]

LTT not a hero?

isnt the definition of a hero someone who the wheel spins out again and again. as hawkwing says "i have fought against you as many times as with you"

 

In a universe where reincarnation exists, everyone is spunn out again and again. The definition of a Hero in this case is a soul bound to the Horn of Valere, which we haven't seen any indication that the Dragon would be.

 

On the contrary, the Dragon seems to have a unique, sole purpose of fighting against the Shadow. The purpose of the Heroes is somewhat different, they are one of the Wheels correction tools. And since it appears that the Shadow can use the Horn as well, it would be quite stupid to have the Dragon tied to it.

 

It's worth noticing that while the Heroes seem to be spun out somewhat frequently, the Dragon was not reborn for 3000 years. Everything points at the Dragon being spun out when there's a major confrontation with the DO, and he always fight for the Light. Since Hawkwing said that he has fought against the Dragon, the Heroes are not always fighting for the good guys.

[Guest cwestervelt]

In a universe where reincarnation exists, everyone is spunn out again and again. The definition of a Hero in this case is a soul bound to the Horn of Valere, which we haven't seen any indication that the Dragon would be.

 

Hawkwing stated "If only you could remember when you wore flesh" or something like that in addition to commenting on how they have fought along side and agaist each countless times.

 

Birgitte also mentions something about LTT always letting the women get him in trouble and the other Heroes all agree.

 

I would say that the these comments and reactions are strony implications LTT is definitely a Hero tied to the Horn that is spun out at need.

[Guest Majsju]

The Dragon is spun out during major key points, and when he's out and about, a lot of what's going on in the world is focused around him. It would be extremely weird if not quite a few of the Heroes were spun out to be there as well during those events, and we know from Birgitte that when they are inbetween lives, they remember their past lives.

 

WOT is in some senses a quite advanced fantasy. People don't become something just because it's cool, there must be a purpose behind it. In this case, having the Dragon bound to the Horn would mean a great risk of backfiring, there is nothing to gain, but a great risk to take.

 

Having the Dragon bound to the Horn would only be what less skilled authors do, "Hey, let's make the main character much cooler".

[Guest Lord Captain Valda]

Like I said, I dont think LTT is attached to the Horn exactlly because of Majs reason that the shadow can use the Horn too. I do agree that there are problems with this theory as in almost every other theory out there for everything. Hey, if we could correctly guess all the theories then we would be writing the books, right? I am so sorry I was so stubborn earlier and I this is due to the fact that I just cant except the basic Slayer theory and that the alternative I posted was shot down so quickly because of some of the "flaws". I do still think this is possible though, if not likely. First of all, Im not even going to start on the "reincarnation" business because my friends are from india and we argue about reincarnation all the time and I always get confused. So here we go again.

1. So what says Luc and Isam arent what Slayer "prefers"

2. I wasn't saying LTT "possessed" a body in TAR. He wouldve had his normal body.

3. Do we know this and if we do please show evidence of my ignorance.

4. That sentence was directly towards Slayer.

5. a) You got me there.

b) So do you think Egwene has some "dragon" in TAR? No, but Rand does.

6. And since the taint cant touch Slayer, Luc and Isam's relationship is much more peaceful.

[Guest cwestervelt]

The Dragon is spun out during major key points, and when he's out and about, a lot of what's going on in the world is focused around him. It would be extremely weird if not quite a few of the Heroes were spun out to be there as well during those events, and we know from Birgitte that when they are inbetween lives, they remember their past lives.

 

The Dragon is spun out when and as the Pattern requires him. Just like with the other heroes, he just isn't always recognized as the Dragon. Besides that, the major event of the Age is about to occur, and there are aren't that many of heroes spun out. Those that are, are too young to be involved in Tarmon Gaidon.

 

I'm not denying they know who they are between lives. Why do you think I mentioned Hawkwing telling Rand as much. Hawkwing is addressing Rand as Lews Therin, and indicating that he would know how if he wasn't in the flesh.

 

Mat gasped at them as they reined in before him and the others. "Is this...? Is this all of you?" They were little more than a hundred, Rand saw, and realized that somehow he had known that they would be. Hurin's mouth hung open; his eyes bulged almost out of his head.

 

"It takes more than bravery to bind a man to the Horn." Artur Hawkwing's voice was deep and carrying, a voice used to giving commands.

 

"Or a woman," Birgitte said sharply.

 

"Or a woman," Hawkwing agreed. "Only a few are bound to the Wheel, spun out again and again to work the will of the Wheel in the Pattern of the Ages. You could tell him, Lews Therin, could you but remember when you wore flesh." He was looking at Rand.

The Great Hunt, Page 559

 

Lews Therin must be bound to the Horn or he wouldn't be able to tell Matt had Lews not been wearing flesh.

[joeybsmash]

jordan is a master writer. i'm sure that going so far back as TGH this theory has uncovered a major plot point in MoL. i have been converted. come join us on the darkside.

[Guest Majsju]

1. So what says Luc and Isam arent what Slayer "prefers"

 

Uhm, huh?

Lets go through some of the basics here. Slayer can choose freely between appearing as Isam or Luc. He has no other choices.

In WH we switches body twice, and both times we see it through his POV, where he provides his reasoning for doing so. He tries to attack Rand as Luc, because he think it's more appropriate considering their relationship. He turns into Isam when he goes to hunt wolves in T'A'R, because according to his POV Isam enjoys that more than Luc.

 

2. I wasn't saying LTT "possessed" a body in TAR. He wouldve had his normal body.

 

Well, if we compare with how it works for the heroes, who does exist in T'A'R that way. When they are spun out they leave T'A'R. As seen through Birgitte's comment that she hasn't been able to find Cain for some time. So even if LTT had been lurking around T'A'R for 3000 years, waiting to be reborn, the instant Rand was born he would disappear from there.

 

3. Do we know this and if we do please show evidence of my ignorance.

 

Confirmed by RJ.

 

4. That sentence was directly towards Slayer.

 

Not necessarily. The two individuals that are merged into Slayer were not evil in themselves. Isam was raised to become what he is, Luc's personality changed when they merged, he was not evil until he met Isam. So Birgitte might very well refer to the evil that was used in the creation of Slayer.

 

b) So do you think Egwene has some "dragon" in TAR? No, but Rand does.

 

No he doesn't, as I've explained before.

 

6. And since the taint cant touch Slayer, Luc and Isam's relationship is much more peaceful.

 

Or perhaps because none of them are a raving lunatic like LTT is...If LTT had been sane I think he and Rand would have had a far more "peaceful" relationship. But there is still the key difference, LTT exist in Rand's head because he is Rand's previous incarnation, they share the same soul.

Luc and Isam has been merged by external force, they are two separate souls, two separate personalities, who share one body.

 

 

Besides that, the major event of the Age is about to occur, and there are aren't that many of heroes spun out. Those that are, are too young to be involved in Tarmon Gaidon.

 

Not necessarily true. We don't know how many heroes there are in total, several of them might have been spun out early enough to be old enough to be a part of TG. With about a hundred of them appearing at falme, I don't think Rand or anyone else would notice if a few were missing.

 

Lews Therin must be bound to the Horn or he wouldn't be able to tell Matt had Lews not been wearing flesh.

 

Actually, Hawkwing must be refering to the knowledge LTT must have had due to him being trained and schooled during the AOL, when the knowledge about pretty much everything was far more advanced than it is in the 3rd Age. When heroes are spun outm they lose all memories of their previous lives, so why would LTT have those memories when he was alive and kicking? The obvious explanation is that there was an understanding about these things in the AOL, and Hawkwing might have met LTT back then.

[Hoop Snake]

I don't think it is a very good theory, it is based on assumptions and guesses that I find unlikely.

[loki redfern]

Actually, Hawkwing must be refering to the knowledge LTT must have had due to him being trained and schooled during the AOL, when the knowledge about pretty much everything was far more advanced than it is in the 3rd Age. When heroes are spun outm they lose all memories of their previous lives, so why would LTT have those memories when he was alive and kicking? The obvious explanation is that there was an understanding about these things in the AOL, and Hawkwing might have met LTT back then.

 

as an earlier quote said "You could tell him, Lews Therin, could you but remember when you wore flesh." He was looking at Rand" ie if you could remember what you knew inbetween lives when you were living one.

[kbundy]

Actually I think there could be some validity to parts of the theory. I think Verin knows more about Luc/Isam and Rand/LTT's situation than we think. I'm of the opinion that Verin knows more about Coriannin Nedeal(sp?) than we know. Since Verin studied Coriannin and her works, could she possibly BE Coriannin? Knowing the ages of the kin and when Coriannin lived? Hmmmm....I need to do some more thinking...and reading....

[Wedge6173]

The argument that the Dragon cannot be tied to the horn because the horn can be used for evil seems to have this fallacy: Has it not been stated that in previous encounters the Dragon has served the Dark One?

[Guest Majsju]

Has it not been stated that in previous encounters the Dragon has served the Dark One?

 

Ishy has stated that. And to use the words of RJ: "You believe Ishamael? Sorry man, but come on"

[Old Skool]

Like I said, I dont think LTT is attached to the Horn exactlly because of Majs reason that the shadow can use the Horn too.

 

I dont know that the Shadow can use the Horn of Valere so easily. Hawkwing knew Rand was the Dragon, but wouldnt fight the Seanchan in TGH unless Rand had with him the Dragon Banner. That to me says that the Shadow wont control the HoV unless they have the Dragon and the Dragon Banner in possession.

[Luckers]

Except that was not nessasarily a requirement... Hawkwing requested the banner because it would feel right, not because it was needed. His mode and method of speech do not indicate need, they indicate desire.

[Old Skool]

Artur Hawkwing to Rand in TGH.

 

"Something is wrong here, something holds me," Suddenly he turned his sharp eyed gaze on Rand, "You are here, have you the banner?"

 

"You are here. The banner is here. The weave of this moment is set. We have come to the horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon."

 

Well this quote to me shows that maybe it is a requirement Luckers. I believe on the contrary, he needs the banner, not desires it.

 

"Something holds me," I think that may suggest the need of the banner. It's as if the wheel wont let him fight unless he rides FOR the Dragon.

[Mat Comes With The Dawn]

Actually in TGH Rand had to proclaim himself from prophecy. Notice how he says the "weave of THIS moment." The pattern was forcing Rand to proclaim himself at Falme, just like the pattern forced the false dragons out of power.

[Old Skool]

What?! Yea I knoe that. But im talking about the shadow using the horn of valere. My theory is that they cant. Hawkewing basically says, the horn has called us, yet we cannot fight unless the Dragon and the banner are present to lead us. And judging by the connection Rand experienced with the heroes (where if he was pushed back by ishy, the heroes were also pushed back by the seanchan) im guessing they will always share that link.